Don't need addons because skill is obvious?

[Drek]

In my time at work I read through more threads on mmo-champ and swtor.com than is probably healthy. I see all these "addons good" or "addons bad" threads. Everyone has their own opinion, that's great and how it should be. But it makes me wonder when players make comments like "you dont need a damage meter, a real raid leader knows if their players are doing the right thing just by watching"

Anyone ever in a raid and had a dmg meter running and saw 10 people doing 25k+ dps but a few doing 8k? So basically the addonless swtor raid wipe conversation would be something like:

Raidleader: "Why are we wiping?!?! Is our dps too low? Isn't everyone pushing their buttons? It looks like everyone is pushing their buttons."

Player 1(Merc): "I'm pushing my buttons, you can very clearly see my blasters are firing so it isn't me."

Raidleader: "You're right, you are obviously pushing your buttons. We have two assassins. Are both of you pushing your buttons?"

Player 2(Assassin): "Yep, you can see my lightsaber swinging and purple lightning."

Player 3(Assassin): "Obviously I am pushing my buttons because I too have a swinging lightsaber and purple lightning."

Raidleader: "Hmmm, are you pushing the correct buttons in the correct order."

Player 1-3: "Yeah, might as well be."

Player 2: "I don't know if Player 3 is pushing the correct buttons. My assassin for example is doing three saber slashes then a lightning effect then three more saber slashes. Player 3 has two saber slashes then two lightning effects. Pretty sure my way is better."

Player 3: "So what?!?!?! That's why we don't have addons so I can push whatever buttons I want without being questioned!!!! Go back to wow you elitist jerk!!!!!!!!!!"


If nothing else you can definitly tell how bored I am at work.

[Lathais]

and you started a new thread for this when there is one on the front page?

[Xecks]

In my time at work I read through more threads on mmo-champ and swtor.com than is probably healthy. I see all these "addons good" or "addons bad" threads. Everyone has their own opinion, that's great and how it should be. But it makes me wonder when players make comments like "you dont need a damage meter, a real raid leader knows if their players are doing the right thing just by watching"

Anyone ever in a raid and had a dmg meter running and saw 10 people doing 25k+ dps but a few doing 8k? So basically the addonless swtor raid wipe conversation would be something like:

Raidleader: "Why are we wiping?!?! Is our dps too low? Isn't everyone pushing their buttons? It looks like everyone is pushing their buttons."

Player 1(Merc): "I'm pushing my buttons, you can very clearly see my blasters are firing so it isn't me."

Raidleader: "You're right, you are obviously pushing your buttons. We have two assassins. Are both of you pushing your buttons?"

Player 2(Assassin): "Yep, you can see my lightsaber swinging and purple lightning."

Player 3(Assassin): "Obviously I am pushing my buttons because I too have a swinging lightsaber and purple lightning."

Raidleader: "Hmmm, are you pushing the correct buttons in the correct order."

Player 1-3: "Yeah, might as well be."

Player 2: "I don't know if Player 3 is pushing the correct buttons. My assassin for example is doing three saber slashes then a lightning effect then three more saber slashes. Player 3 has two saber slashes then two lightning effects. Pretty sure my way is better."

Player 3: "So what?!?!?! That's why we don't have addons so I can push whatever buttons I want without being questioned!!!! Go back to wow you elitist jerk!!!!!!!!!!"


If nothing else you can definitly tell how bored I am at work.

lol so true.

[Drek]

and you started a new thread for this when there is one on the front page?

It was a joke. Given it was much funnier when given verbally to some mmo playing rl friends with me doing funny voices and making lightsaber and force lightning attack movements. Come on it's Friday. Relax.

[Deleted]

Frankly I'd rather hope that SWTOR raid encounters are interesting enough that I don't start counting how many swings my team mates are doing.

[endersblade]

In my time at work I read through more threads on mmo-champ and swtor.com than is probably healthy.

HAHAHA, I feel ya :-) 10 hours of doing nothing ftw!

People were downing raids in MMOs long before addons came around. They are NOT required; otherwise, they'd be built into the game. They're a crutch. If you think you absolutely cannot live without addons, then you need to rethink the way you play.

As far as DPS meters go, I think they are more detrimental than they are helpful. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people post recounts in chat, and then the low man on the totem pole gets jumped on until the group falls apart. It's silly. You know, I can fully understand raids needing all their people to be at the top of their game. Combat Logs are prefect for this, and you're more than welcome to them. And while there is a fine line between 'don't tell me what to do, I'm trying to enjoy the game' and 'if you don't start hitting those buttons in the right order, we'll boot you', I really have no respect for people who seem to think they can tell me how to play, because a DPS meter is telling them I'm doing less DPS than they expect me to.

I mean, really. What ever happened to games being, well, GAMES? DPS meters are for people who play jobs, not games. When I have to spend hours and hours learning the EXACT proper rotation to eek out the last few percentages of DPS, the game has officially stopped being fun, and has turned into work.

[Drek]

HAHAHA, I feel ya :-) 10 hours of doing nothing ftw!

People were downing raids in MMOs long before addons came around. They are NOT required; otherwise, they'd be built into the game. They're a crutch. If you think you absolutely cannot live without addons, then you need to rethink the way you play.

As far as DPS meters go, I think they are more detrimental than they are helpful. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people post recounts in chat, and then the low man on the totem pole gets jumped on until the group falls apart. It's silly. You know, I can fully understand raids needing all their people to be at the top of their game. Combat Logs are prefect for this, and you're more than welcome to them. And while there is a fine line between 'don't tell me what to do, I'm trying to enjoy the game' and 'if you don't start hitting those buttons in the right order, we'll boot you', I really have no respect for people who seem to think they can tell me how to play, because a DPS meter is telling them I'm doing less DPS than they expect me to.

I mean, really. What ever happened to games being, well, GAMES? DPS meters are for people who play jobs, not games. When I have to spend hours and hours learning the EXACT proper rotation to eek out the last few percentages of DPS, the game has officially stopped being fun, and has turned into work.

I agree DBM, big/little wigs, etc are a crutch. Once you see a fight unless it is bugged or designed poorly you'll learn what to look for. This little converation I made up was my response to someone on a thread that in 20some replies claimed they could pick out one melee stacked on a raid boss' ass with a bunch of melees and judge that player's performance solely by watching them. And this wasn't meant to be an arguement supporting one side or another just to take a shot at a really stupid arguement someone was trying to use.

Sadly, from what I've read the main reason for players hating dmg meters is something as simple as them being linked in chat. It is annoying but neither you nor I can stop that anymore than we can stop someone spamming anything else.

Too many people are inclined to blame the software rather than the users. It's never the people playing the game or using the addons fault. It's the software itself. Look at all the whining about server queues from people who admit they joined Very Heavy servers so they wouldn't be "alone" Well guess what? If too many people think the same thing you did the servers become Full and it's their fault but they blame it on the game.

[Lathais]

HAHAHA, I feel ya :-) 10 hours of doing nothing ftw!

People were downing raids in MMOs long before addons came around. They are NOT required; otherwise, they'd be built into the game. They're a crutch. If you think you absolutely cannot live without addons, then you need to rethink the way you play.

As far as DPS meters go, I think they are more detrimental than they are helpful. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people post recounts in chat, and then the low man on the totem pole gets jumped on until the group falls apart. It's silly. You know, I can fully understand raids needing all their people to be at the top of their game. Combat Logs are prefect for this, and you're more than welcome to them. And while there is a fine line between 'don't tell me what to do, I'm trying to enjoy the game' and 'if you don't start hitting those buttons in the right order, we'll boot you', I really have no respect for people who seem to think they can tell me how to play, because a DPS meter is telling them I'm doing less DPS than they expect me to.

I mean, really. What ever happened to games being, well, GAMES? DPS meters are for people who play jobs, not games. When I have to spend hours and hours learning the EXACT proper rotation to eek out the last few percentages of DPS, the game has officially stopped being fun, and has turned into work.

I have no respect for people who say they are gonna fill a role in my guild's raid and then don't. If you want to play the way you want, play with yourself or other people who play the way you want. I'll play the way I want and with other people who want to play the way I do.

If there are add-ons, and you want to have a guild full of people that are not using add-ons and doing under 10k DPS and can't down a boss that requires everyone to be at 15k DPS go ahead. Don't come in to my raid and expect me to carry you though. I am not playing the game to carry you.

[vizzle]

HAHAHA, I feel ya :-) 10 hours of doing nothing ftw!

People were downing raids in MMOs long before addons came around. They are NOT required; otherwise, they'd be built into the game. They're a crutch. If you think you absolutely cannot live without addons, then you need to rethink the way you play.

As far as DPS meters go, I think they are more detrimental than they are helpful. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people post recounts in chat, and then the low man on the totem pole gets jumped on until the group falls apart. It's silly. You know, I can fully understand raids needing all their people to be at the top of their game. Combat Logs are prefect for this, and you're more than welcome to them. And while there is a fine line between 'don't tell me what to do, I'm trying to enjoy the game' and 'if you don't start hitting those buttons in the right order, we'll boot you', I really have no respect for people who seem to think they can tell me how to play, because a DPS meter is telling them I'm doing less DPS than they expect me to.

I mean, really. What ever happened to games being, well, GAMES? DPS meters are for people who play jobs, not games. When I have to spend hours and hours learning the EXACT proper rotation to eek out the last few percentages of DPS, the game has officially stopped being fun, and has turned into work.

You forbid the use of dps meters, yet allow the use of combat logs. There is no difference between the two, other than ease. If you don't want people who'll yell at you for doing low dps, then don't group up with them.

[Deleted]

I mean, really. What ever happened to games being, well, GAMES? DPS meters are for people who play jobs, not games. When I have to spend hours and hours learning the EXACT proper rotation to eek out the last few percentages of DPS, the game has officially stopped being fun, and has turned into work.

All games have rules and tactics that are needed to play, and you wouldn't play the games without them. The fun and the challenge is in working with these rules and standards to achieve your goals.

If you're being asked to spend hours perfecting your rotation to eek out a small DPS increase and you do not like this and consider this work then I would say the fault lies with you because you're clearly in the wrong kind of guild. I've been in plenty of guilds and PUG raids where the difference between the top and bottom DPS has been about 40% and no one really minds. Except at the top tier of raiding people generally do not care about a few % DPS, with the exception of the very occasional idiot. In my experience people generally only start attacking people's DPS in heroics and raids when they're doing half or under what everyone else is doing.

[philefluxx]

While Im not against addons, there are several guides out now to tell players what rotations are best for their spec. So in your situation one assassin would have proof his rotation is correct.

No addons at this time just means people have to actually research out of game instead of drooling over their keyboard while they watch a dps meter.

[tj119]

I enjoy not having addons, such as damage meters because it does sort of eliminate that "Oh i'm doing double your dps you're bad". BUT not having it just causes people to point fingers and since there is no "best" way to do things many people will just figuire their way is right and others are wrong.

[Drek]

I enjoy not having addons, such as damage meters because it does sort of eliminate that "Oh i'm doing double your dps you're bad". BUT not having it just causes people to point fingers and since there is no "best" way to do things many people will just figuire their way is right and others are wrong.

Once again that's blaming the tools and not the players. If someone joins your swtor server and starts the "anal" game in every chat channel they're in, is it their fault or the games fault? It's the player's fault. This is the exact same issue in wow. "wow sucks because it's community is horrible". The game is just software. No where in one game or the other is there a load screen tip encouraging you to be an asshole to everyone you encounter.

This is what happened when mmos became more mainstream. Do you think there were middleaged housewives that never touched a computer in their life in Everquest? Maybe, but nothing compared to finding a guild in a current mmo where half the people are players that haven't never played another game in their life and can click the wow icon and login but would look at you dumbfounded if you asked them to delete their cookies and temp files. Basically, when you have millions of people from every walk of life in one game, you have to take the good with the bad. That's why I've always loved the irony of wow's lfg buff "Luck of the draw".

[Deleted]

I'm all for combat logging. I just don't think damage meters are the only answer.

World of Logs = Yes, Recount = No

[Aertea]

Addons aren't a detriment to anything. Idiots using addons on the other hand...

[Dakia]

I'm all for combat logging. I just don't think damage meters are the only answer.

World of Logs = Yes, Recount = No

My sentiments exactly. I'm not someone who opposes mods, but a recount like addon isn't really necessary. I do, however, absolutely want a WoL like website for TOR.

[Deleted]

I couldn't give a rats ass about DBM and those things but I miss recount and WoL, that is all.

[CrimsonCold]

I think the real issue is that some people play to min/max and get the most out of their characters and another group of players that just wants to play how they prefer regardless if its to the classes maximum potential. Obviously, min/max players would want a damage meter to gauge their performance and other group of players don't want it because they want to keep doing what they prefer. An example would be a DoT class with a min/max player getting rotations/refreshing dots with high uptime and the other player spamming one skill because it looks coo and they like it.

Also, for the comment about raids never needing meters before. Most mmos before had parses or 1 or 2 buttons worth hitting and rotations weren't really part of the gameplay. Any current mmo has them.

[Drek]

My sentiments exactly. I'm not someone who opposes mods, but a recount like addon isn't really necessary. I do, however, absolutely want a WoL like website for TOR.

Well no addons are necessary, but they're nice to have sometimes. I wouldn't mind moving around my action bars or resizing them. They help with those complaints some users have with things being to hard to see/read. Just because I dont have that problem doesn't mean someone else doesnt. If the company making the game doesn't give the options to fit a person's particular preference why not let someone else.

If someone doesn't like them they dont have to use them. It's rather selfish to try to force ones likes or dislikes on others. Yeah, someone linking a damage meter in chat is annoying but that's the player that linked the meter's fault. It was a concious choice that player made just as much as it would be a concious choice for one player to whisper another says "hey asshole stop breaking my CC, you suck noob"

[nazrakin]

I agree, it is just asinine.

How can you be against something that is entirely optional? Its like getting mad because I enjoy cream in my coffee.