Don't need addons because skill is obvious?

[endersblade]

It's not the tools' fault about as much as it's not the gun's fault in a murder. They're a means to an end.

WoL, that's what I was getting at. I think my biggest beef with Recount is that it's basically instantaneous flame bait. WoL is on a website, and requires some time between reading it and figuring out what the problem was. Recount allows those arseholes to post immediately after a fight and go "LAWL NOOB UR DPS SUX". So no, it's not the tool's fault, as I'll admit Recount has some usefulness to it. But in my experience, my opinion, it's used far more for bad than it is for good. I stopped raiding after BC, and we didn't use addons like DBM, Recount, etc in Vanilla. (My guild, that is.) It was a much more fun time. At the end of BC, when we started using more and more addons, it became a chore, and I rapidly lost interest. So I can't really comment on the current usefulness of DPS meters in raids, as my experience is years old.

[Deleted]

The only people who hate addons are the bads at the bottom of recount anyway. Or those who still die in fire even if they're using DBM.

Instead they go "LOL addons, I don't need them, I'm good enough"

Also fun fact: The reason why "elitists" look down on people who are refered to as bads, is because they look down on themselves whenever they make a mistake. They are the most self-critisizing people of all players, which means they will also judge and critisize others as hard as they critisize themselves.

[Eurhetemec]

It doesn't negate the need for addons, but it does lessen them.

There's no question that it's much easier to see what's going on with a group with only four people and unique animations for almost every ability (whereas WoW has the same few animations with slightly different SFX for 99.9% of abilities).

[Lathais]

It's not the tools' fault about as much as it's not the gun's fault in a murder. They're a means to an end.

WoL, that's what I was getting at. I think my biggest beef with Recount is that it's basically instantaneous flame bait. WoL is on a website, and requires some time between reading it and figuring out what the problem was. Recount allows those arseholes to post immediately after a fight and go "LAWL NOOB UR DPS SUX". So no, it's not the tool's fault, as I'll admit Recount has some usefulness to it. But in my experience, my opinion, it's used far more for bad than it is for good. I stopped raiding after BC, and we didn't use addons like DBM, Recount, etc in Vanilla. (My guild, that is.) It was a much more fun time. At the end of BC, when we started using more and more addons, it became a chore, and I rapidly lost interest. So I can't really comment on the current usefulness of DPS meters in raids, as my experience is years old.

Then raid with a guild. My guild has a rule, no linking damage meters in raid or guild chat. We can use say if we want, but hardly anyone does unless they just happened to have a perfect run or something and want to show off. We all have, we all look at it, and if we have a new recruit or something we will bring it up occasionally. We also know that some fights are not for certain classes, or if you are having to do something else you may not be as high as you normally are. Sometimes you just get shit luck and get targeted the whole fight and are moving more than casting. It happens, and if you're low once, noone says anything. However, if you're the new guy, and you're low fight after fight, night after night, good-bye. Yeah, we could use WoL to do this probably, but I want it there in game. I don't want to have to log out after raid, go upload something somewhere, wait for it to parse, then dig through pages of data. It's right there on recount.

If you're using it in PuGs, or even listening to the arsehole that's linking it in group, then get real. Using it in a raid to determine what's going on, where you need to improve there is nothing wrong with it.

[Drek]

When all the arguments are cleared away it's all a matter of how well each individual deals with social interaction. Do you accept that in games with millions of people everyone wants different things and thinks different ways? Can you join an mmo and deal with the chance that people will be mean to you?

I can run recount for years and never ever be tempted to link it in party chat. I know it annoys people.

"The mmo(wow most commonly) community sucks" Well guess what? That's just how some people are. They're probably jerks in real life and being anonymous in a game just makes it easier to let it out. I was the MT in the top raiding guild on my server years ago. Everyone on the server assumed I was an asshole. Some guy whispered me asking what UI I used. I told him. He asked if I ever tried one of the particular custom ones of some website. I said "no" I preceded to download it and figured out how to configure it and explained to him how to do it. He replied "thanks alot, I was really expecting you to ignore me when I whispered you."

To sum up my thoughts: Players really need to chillout and direct their anger where it's deserved. If a player is pissing you off blame the player. Leave the software alone until it starts whispering profanity to you.



BTW I really was just trying to make a joke. I'm tired and wasn't trying to start another argument thread. I'll accept the blame for my lack of foresight.

[Eurhetemec]

"The mmo(wow most commonly) community sucks" Well guess what? That's just how some people are. They're probably jerks in real life and being anonymous in a game just makes it easier to let it out.

To sum up my thoughts: Players really need to chillout and direct their anger where it's deserved. If a player is pissing you off blame the player. Leave the software alone until it starts whispering profanity to you.

It's hilarious to me that with Recount, it's a case of "blame the player, not the tool!", but that many people who love Recount will happily claim that LFD is the work of the devil himself, despite it also, only being a tool.

The fact is, some tools encourage people to behave like jerks. Some encourage it really strongly. I'm quite pleased that SWTOR is currently in a state when NONE of the major jerk-encouraging tools are currently present, and I'm deeply unconvinced that adding any of them is really going to add up to a better game for everyone six months or a year from now.

To be clear, I played MMO long before either of these things existed, and the fact is, people behave a lot more civilly. And unsurprisingly, in SWTOR, people are behaving pretty civilly, at least right now. I think the absence of these tools is contributing to that.

[Drek]

It's hilarious to me that with Recount, it's a case of "blame the player, not the tool!", but that many people who love Recount will happily claim that LFD is the work of the devil himself, despite it also, only being a tool.

The fact is, some tools encourage people to behave like jerks. Some encourage it really strongly. I'm quite pleased that SWTOR is currently in a state when NONE of the major jerk-encouraging tools are currently present, and I'm deeply unconvinced that adding any of them is really going to add up to a better game for everyone six months or a year from now.

To be clear, I played MMO long before either of these things existed, and the fact is, people behave a lot more civilly. And unsurprisingly, in SWTOR, people are behaving pretty civilly, at least right now. I think the absence of these tools is contributing to that.

Lol not even going to give my thoughts on dungeon finder. Addons are just some extra icing on some player's cake. Whether the game does well or not is up to the developers. They need to read and consider the feedback whether good or bad and make what decisions they think are best. Unfortunately, nowadays an mmo only has a short period of time to impress and work out the kinks before many run back to old faithful.

Personally, I'm going to play both for now. When I have no desire to login to one or both, I'll stop playing. As someone that has also began gaming on and offline for years I really don't see how some people can get so enraged about such petty things. But then again I'm strongly opposed to their opposition...guess i'm a hypocrite.

[Simmias]

the only people who don't like addons like Recount are the ones doing shit damage, and then when they get called out on it they have a bitch fit. ToR desperately needs some of the addons that the WoW community has made.

[spaace]

If you READ your abilities, and aren't a complete retard, then you should be able to figure out your "rotation" or "priority" list.... Example: sage/sorcs.... if your dots aren't on cooldown, and aren't on the boss... cast them.

[Fetacheese]

At the current time, I'm definitely happier with no recount. This is more for personal reasons that anything, I like being able to throw points randomly and use what I please without knowing the perfect technique. I am 90% sure that I am outdpsing everyone else in any flashpoint by a pretty huge margin, but it doesn't really bother me.

However, I think a damage meter would be very beneficial once everyone begins raiding. It is pretty important that everyone can be held accountable for what they output. When it inevitably comes, it will probably be time when it's needed.

[Drek]

If you READ your abilities, and aren't a complete retard, then you should be able to figure out your "rotation" or "priority" list.... Example: sage/sorcs.... if your dots aren't on cooldown, and aren't on the boss... cast them.

Addons lead to statistics...statistics lead to knowledge...knowledge leads to nerdrage...nerdrage leads to the darkside.

[spaace]

@Drek. Glad you know how to read... Only not.


There already is a damage meter in the game.. hover over your damage in a warzone..

If you "win" and think you did good, but have 1 valor and low damage, then instead of letting everyone else carry your ass, then you should step up and be a player and fix your stuff, instead of blaming a game with "no addons", because shitty games like wow have ruined way mmos are played.

[nazrakin]

It's hilarious to me that with Recount, it's a case of "blame the player, not the tool!", but that many people who love recount will happily claim that LFD is the work of the devil himself, despite it also, only being a tool.

Really? Like who?

The fact is, some tools encourage people to behave like jerks. Some encourage it really strongly. I'm quite pleased that SWTOR is currently in a state when NONE of the major jerk-encouraging tools are currently present, and I'm deeply unconvinced that adding any of them is really going to add up to a better game for everyone six months or a year from now.

That's not a fact at all -- its your opinion and it is entirely baseless. I just did the Foundry yesterday, people were dying because the 2nd to last boss was destroying us with sniper spam. The Marauder immediately assumes it was the healer doing something wrong and starts attacking the guy. In reality, we were dying because we were doing the fight wrong. Now are those boss mechanics encouraging him to be a jerk? Or is the Marauder just an ass?

[Deleted]

HAHAHA, I feel ya :-) 10 hours of doing nothing ftw!

People were downing raids in MMOs long before addons came around. They are NOT required; otherwise, they'd be built into the game. They're a crutch. If you think you absolutely cannot live without addons, then you need to rethink the way you play.

As far as DPS meters go, I think they are more detrimental than they are helpful. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people post recounts in chat, and then the low man on the totem pole gets jumped on until the group falls apart. It's silly. You know, I can fully understand raids needing all their people to be at the top of their game. Combat Logs are prefect for this, and you're more than welcome to them. And while there is a fine line between 'don't tell me what to do, I'm trying to enjoy the game' and 'if you don't start hitting those buttons in the right order, we'll boot you', I really have no respect for people who seem to think they can tell me how to play, because a DPS meter is telling them I'm doing less DPS than they expect me to.

I mean, really. What ever happened to games being, well, GAMES? DPS meters are for people who play jobs, not games. When I have to spend hours and hours learning the EXACT proper rotation to eek out the last few percentages of DPS, the game has officially stopped being fun, and has turned into work.

So you rage and go to battlefield 3 forums and qq so that they would remove K/D ratio, ribbons and points?

[TTDargor]

Try linking Damage TAKEN after a fight and watch people go all proud about beeing on top...

OT: Recount for myself is a tool. i like watching my performance and to seek ways to improve myself. if anyone is particulary low on the meters i may (depending on my mood) ask them per whisper and if they want try to help them (most certainly not gonna blame them in the whole group... okay, sometimes, but only if they're cocky).

recount is a mere tool (a very good and diverse at that) and people using it choose for themself it they want to be one too...

edit: clarification

[philefluxx]

The easiest solution for both sides is to create a version of Recount and make it so that you have to allow others to see your stats.

- This will allow the min/maxers to get the numbers they want
- Allow the inbetweeners to get the data they desire to improve
- Prevent the "you suck noob" situations when pugging if they want to hide the data, it will also give you an idea of what type of group your dealing with if they freak out on you for hiding the data
- Allow the elite to filter players who do not wish to have their data public
- Allow the casual to find players/guilds who do not care about DPS meters

[Drek]

@Drek. Glad you know how to read... Only not.


There already is a damage meter in the game.. hover over your damage in a warzone..

If you "win" and think you did good, but have 1 valor and low damage, then instead of letting everyone else carry your ass, then you should step up and be a player and fix your stuff, instead of blaming a game with "no addons", because shitty games like wow have ruined way mmos are played.

Um...thanks. I guess. Maybe. "Glad you know how to read...only not." Cute, you're 10 I'm guessing. So you think this was in anyway a discussion about pvp? And you believe damage dealing is a priority in pvp? Not strategy and control. Guess you're one of those wow players that goes in a bg spams aoe and brags about being the top Damage Done. Whatever makes you happy.

[davesurfer]

I'm all for combat logging. I just don't think damage meters are the only answer.

World of Logs = Yes, Recount = No

I am with you. WoL is a tool used by are raid team a lot during progression even in between pulls (love the love update). This is all i want. Who cares about dungeons, I am concerned about raids. I am a tank so I like to scrub what damage I am getting and when. What heals am i getting, what debuffs are going out and when etc. Saving survival CDs and healing CDs for damage spikes etc. I understand the people who want it, heck I would like to know how I am doing. But I also understand the people who hate DPS spammers, and there are a lot.

If I am in a 5 man and someone spams DPS, I look to see have they done any utility, like interrupt. The answer is always no.

World of Logs = Yes, Recount = No

[Apostolic]

LOL Learn the exact proper rotation? It's not about that. Just like in Vanilla WoW at Rags, you had hunters going AFK just using auto shot. Or other people just spamming 1 button. It hinders the 39 other people. This is what a combat parser will show (in game or out of the game).

Most of the time when Recount is spammed in LFR, its because there is like 10 people sitting at 5k DPS and 5 people carrying those people with 50k dps.
Believe it or not, it is human nature to want everyone to carry their own load, not carry everyone else.

FYI: Combat Parser will probably be released at the first content patch. It is a Bioware top priority right now.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/12...parsing-other/

For me as a healer/ccer - I wanna see who the hell is breaking my CCs. Turn off you companions AOE FFS!!!

[belfpala]

The only addons I would really like to have would involve UI customization.

I don't really need a DPS meter or DBM or any of that. But it would be nice, maybe, if there was a training dummy type of thing in game that would give you feedback on your damage so you could at least try out different rotations.