Former marine arrested for unknowingly violating NY gun law

[obdigore]

It does though! If it were 18, campuses could sell liquor, therefor limiting the amount of kids that drive to parties, effectively reducing the risk of drinking and driving.

Or they go to the parties, get drunk, and dont drive home? I never drove after I had been drinking when I was in college.

[FearXI]

Show me this proof. I would love to have something from a non-biased source that would prove it.

PS -> Breaking Bad rocks

1.) http://www.independent.org/issues/article.asp?id=482

2.) http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-murder-rates/

3.) http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/blanks/081400.htm

There are 3 from a quick search. Tried to find you some "non-biased" sources.

[obdigore]

1.) http://www.independent.org/issues/article.asp?id=482

2.) http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-murder-rates/

3.) http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/blanks/081400.htm

There are 3 from a quick search. Tried to find you some "non-biased" sources.

The first and the second sources contradict each other regarding what happened after the DC ban on handguns. The first says that homicides and suicides fell by 25%, where the second says the rates grew quite a bit after the ban and lowered after the ban was lifted.

The third one fails to take into account the fact that suburbs always have a lower crime rate than cities, and this points to the fact that more people pushed together in a small space equals more crime.

[FearXI]

The first and the second sources contradict each other regarding what happened after the DC ban on handguns. The first says that homicides and suicides fell by 25%, where the second says the rates grew quite a bit after the ban and lowered after the ban was lifted.

O.o

Reread that.
Ban crime/murder up.
No Ban crime/murder down.

Criminal knows area is a heavy concealed carry area he thinks twice about mugging that guy so he moves on to easier picking.

[obdigore]

O.o

Reread that.
Ban crime/murder up.
No Ban crime/murder down.

Criminal knows area is a heavy concealed carry area he thinks twice about mugging that guy so he moves on to easier picking.

I did.

Ban Handguns/Murder lowers -> First source.
Ban Handguns/Murder Rises -> Second source.

The second sources point was that the murder rate fell after handguns were unbanned in 2008. They are talking about the same ban in the same area with the same historical data. How can the murder rate both lower and rise at the same time?

[FearXI]

I did.

Ban Handguns/Murder lowers -> First source.
Ban Handguns/Murder Rises -> Second source.

The second sources point was that the murder rate fell after handguns were unbanned in 2008. They are talking about the same ban in the same area with the same historical data. How can the murder rate both lower and rise at the same time?

MMO driving me nuts seems to be lagging for me.

Anyway http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-murder-rates/ it states the rates dropped.

Few who lived in Washington during the 1970s can forget the upswing in crime that started right after the ban was originally passed. In the five years before the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 murders per 100,000. In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. One fact is particularly hard to ignore: D.C.’s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but only once fell below what it was in 1976 before the ban. That aberration happened years later, in 1985.

And if you read http://www.independent.org/issues/article.asp?id=482

A 1991 study of gun control in Washington, D.C., concluded that a 1976 gun-control law saved lives because suicides and homicides fell about 25 percent after its enactment, while adjacent areas in Maryland and Virginia, where no new law was enacted, had no change. However, Polsby argues that this conclusion depends on which time periods are studied. When longer time periods are used, restrictive gun-control laws become positively associated with increases in homicide rates.

I can only assume you mean the bold text, read it again.
I also see that was a poor choice of a link since it was for someones book rather then a deep look into it.

---------- Post added 2012-01-04 at 06:24 AM ----------

For the love of god!
Can anyone else edit their posts?
Keep getting the little loading circle.
Anyway that's my last post off to bed PM me obdigore if you need more info.

[obdigore]

No.

Link 1 -> In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35.
Link 2 ->A 1991 study of gun control in Washington, D.C., concluded that a 1976 gun-control law saved lives because suicides and homicides fell about 25 percent after its enactment

See the difference? One says that the murder rate rose after the ban, and the other says that it fell.

[Holtzmann]

I'm not from the US, so I haven't heard all the arguments for or against gun control. Maybe an american will be able to sort this out for me:

Wouldn't the logical outcome of everybody having handguns be escalation?

The idea of using weapons as a deterrent doesn't seem too safe to me, since at least over here in Brazil (where it's relatively easy to get a gun, even if not legally) criminals don't seem to think "I suspect this guy has a gun, so I'm not gonna mug him". Instead, their usual modus operandi seems to be "if this guy so much as breathes a little too hard, I'm gonna kill him". Maybe it has something to do with robbing people while on crack, but the rates of death for people who react to street crime are pretty damn high.

[Kalyyn]

I'm not from the US, so I haven't heard all the arguments for or against gun control. Maybe an american will be able to sort this out for me:

Wouldn't the logical outcome of everybody having handguns be escalation?

The idea of using weapons as a deterrent doesn't seem too safe to me, since at least over here in Brazil (where it's relatively easy to get a gun, even if not legally) criminals don't seem to think "I suspect this guy has a gun, so I'm not gonna mug him". Instead, their usual modus operandi seems to be "if this guy so much as breathes a little too hard, I'm gonna kill him". Maybe it has something to do with robbing people while on crack, but the rates of death for people who react to street crime are pretty damn high.

They say an armed society is a polite society, and from what I've seen it's true. Thing is, you have to have your gun out in the open for this to work. Criminals are often not thinking clearly when they commit their crimes, so they aren't considering that you'll have a concealed weapon. If they can see it on you, though, they won't mess with you unless they genuinely want you to kill them.

As for the rest of the nonsense in this thread, it all makes me very sad. I've vowed to myself to never move to a place where, if somebody tries to murder me, I'm legally required to let them do it. And don't try to say that's not true. If I can be put in jail for defending myself, then they are legally requiring me to allow myself to be murdered.

[Holtzmann]

They say an armed society is a polite society, and from what I've seen it's true. Thing is, you have to have your gun out in the open for this to work. Criminals are often not thinking clearly when they commit their crimes, so they aren't considering that you'll have a concealed weapon. If they can see it on you, though, they won't mess with you unless they genuinely want you to kill them.

A society where everybody is armed would feel to me like the Cold War: a lot of people would get very twitchy about possible threats and end up overreacting, and that's never good. And really, if a crackhead with a gun sees you have a gun, I think they might just try to kill you and get your wallet (and your gun) instead of going through the trouble of mugging you. I'm not talking about a hypothetical scenario: it actually happens on a fairly regular basis here, to the point of a sizable percentage (25%, I think?) of weapons used by drug-dealers having originally belonged to lawful citizens. It's ridiculous, but human life really is that cheap to some people. Common sense (and statistics) here dictates that if you react, you get killed.

I respect your point of view, though. Personally, I'd like to live in a country where I wouldn't need to defend my wallet and my watch, much less my life. But that would require and actual, functioning justice system and a social structure that's supportive enough of all classes as to make crime non-profitable for a majority of would-be criminals, and well... apparently we can't have nice things.

[Kalyyn]

A society where everybody is armed would feel to me like the Cold War: a lot of people would get very twitchy about possible threats and end up overreacting, and that's never good.

Actually, I think the cold war is a very good analogy. And I would like to note that America and Russia behaved pretty well for the most part.

Also, do you mind if I ask you where you live? It sounds really scary.

[vaeevictiss]

Let's not overlook the tens of thousands of dollars required to actually purchase the weapon. The license also has to be renewed annually and be approved by local law enforcement. Plus you have to obtain a separate license for each Class 2/3 firearm you plan on buying.

It's a one time thing not a yearly renewal. Trust me i have a few class 3 items.

[Bakis]

Actually, I think the cold war is a very good analogy. And I would like to note that America and Russia behaved pretty well for the most part.

Behaved well as in both populations living in paranoid fear? Behaving well in this case is not the same as quality of life.
Same can be said in a society where you pack heat and you know most people around you do as well.

[Kalyyn]

Behaved well as in both populations living in paranoid fear? Behaving well in this case is not the same as quality of life.
Same can be said in a society where you pack heat and you know most people around you do as well.

Point is, almost nobody died. As opposed to conflicts where one side is armed and one side isn't, which usually ends in millions of people dying.

[Holtzmann]

Actually, I think the cold war is a very good analogy. And I would like to note that America and Russia behaved pretty well for the most part.

Also, do you mind if I ask you where you live? It sounds really scary.

I think Bakis got my point. The Cold War might have worked out well in terms of the world not being destroyed in a nuclear Armageddon (no one actually fired anything), but it was kind of a sucky time for a lot of the people involved. I wouldn't want to be even more paranoid about people with guns than I already am. And that's without even talking about the proxy wars.

And I live in Brazil. It's actually a very nice place in general, even with fairly tight gun control regulations. You just have to cultivate a habit of paying attention to your surroundings and not going to the wrong places at the wrong times, and that allowed me to avoid getting into trouble so far. Of course, if you live in some areas of Rio de Janeiro or São Paulo (to name a couple examples but every big city has those, including mine), you have to be extra careful.

[Bakis]

Dont think the cold war and the strict oversight and distances there can be translated to the availability of arms within a country.

Either way, US is so far gone withthe ammount of legal & illegal arms that there is no real way to be able to advocate to someone that they shouldnt be able to have a handgun.
Ontopic though, if NY City decided (within their right) to have much tougher restrictions people just have to deal with it.
Breaking the law by not knowing the law is noones fault but this person. Seems like he had a clue that his permit is not viable for every state since he did went online to read about it.
Simply his fault he didnt read where he should or called the authorities to ask.

[Heheumadhehe]

The biggest problem with strict no-gun laws like that is, criminals are STILL going to carry them, and the citizens have no way to protect themselves. There's just not enough police to watch every person in case they try to be mugged.

Laws like this are like DRM and such, and hurt the people that are trying to follow the law, and almost HELP the people trying to break it.

I'll never understand this country...

Exactly talk about fucking failure.

[Fuzzzie]

This thread has gone way, way off topic.