Paladin Gap Closing

[Selgar]

So 2 ranged stuns, a hand of freedom, and Long Arm of the Law talent isn't enough? Oh yeah you also have divine shield if you didn't manage to kill your target in one try. Quit complaining please..

Granted I don't pvp much but when did we get a second ranged stun (10yds so does NOT qualify as a ranged stun)?? I am assuming the first one you are talking about is Repentance.

As many others have pointed out LAotL is woefully inadequate as the speed boost is of too short a duration and too small a boost to actually catch anyone who is moving.

So basically what you are saying is that the combination of LAotL, HoF (dispellable), Cleanse (likely more than once) , and either HoJ (dispellable, 40-60 sec cooldown) or Repentance (dispellable, 60 sec cooldown) for a total cost of 28-34% (with only one cast of cleanse add 14% more for each additional cast) of our mana pool is equivalent to the other melee classes being able to instantly close a gap (some classes in more than one way) without fear of being dispelled or reslowed with a single spell/ability.

That sure sounds fair....

[Talen]

I think that guy made a classic mistake when it comes to trying to get a point across to the blues: he pointed out a lot of perceived mistakes, but he didn't suggest any solutions.

Honest question: what would you implement as a gap closer to Ret Paladins that couldn't be used by Prot or Holy and that's not a clone of either Charge or Death Grip?

First of all, ask the question:
Does it need to be forbidden to Holy and/or Prot? Seriously. Does it? Probably not. Holy after all already has a "sprint" of sorts and prot, likewise, is melee. And like warriors tanks, DK tanks and Bear tanks, a gap closing mechanism will be useful.

As to the second...its all very well to say the class should be different. This is a very good attitude to take...so long as the class isn't hamstrung by it. Certain mechanics are necessary to fill certain roles and some mechanic to allow the Paladind to damage a target over THERE when the Paladin is HERE is a necssity as it is a melee class.

In short, you give the class and spec the baisc tools it needs to do its job and worry about unqiueness elsewhere.

However...there are three basic answers.

First...the target is there so you go to him. Charge, Sprint, Snare mechanics.
Second....the target is there, so you bring him to you. Death Grip.
Third....the target is there, you are here so you use a different set of abilities to hurt him. Ranged combat.

In short, either you/the target moves to eliminate the gap between you...or you ensure the gap is of limited benefit. A ranged combat option (if viable) is different from charge/DG and keeps the class low mobility. Unfortunately, it also isn't a complete answer....you'd need other options such as a ranged snare and/or a CD based sprint to provide a fully rounded gap closing toolkit.

If you want a fully rounded toolkit....

1: Ranged combat as the mainstay. Holy Bolt, Exorcism, Judgement and Holy Shock as the basic spells. Maybe a rnaged HP consumer as well. In short, provide the basis for a Shockadin but make it useful elsewhere. Various CDs and cast times would ensure a suitable choice between standing still and duelling and trying to close for melee ( which should be the preferred option).

2: A sprint effect on a long CD...perhaps about 3 minutes. Don't want it too good or too available, but at the same time you don't want to leave the Paldin too vulnerable without it.

3: A ranged snare effect of some sort so that closing to melee under option 1 is still viable.2Doens't have to be a great snare...but strong enough that the Paladin has a decent chance of closing the distance.

Now, this won't be the only solution to this problem.

EJL

[Johnmatrix]

How about a mix of charge and intervene?

What he said. As i said, ret could also use a gap opener instead of just a gap closer. Would be unique enough because there isn't a spell like that ingame.

[zcks]

So 2 ranged stuns, a hand of freedom, and Long Arm of the Law talent isn't enough? Oh yeah you also have divine shield if you didn't manage to kill your target in one try. Quit complaining please..

1: Long Arm of the Law at best has only a 60% up time and after a snare is applied your still moving under 100%.

2: Hand of freedom at best after talents has under a 50% up time, there is also the matter where it can be dispelled by 4/10 classes at base not to mention by another spec & a pet.

3: Hammer of justice has a 1 minute CD & can be dispelled, it can also be blinked out of by mages.

4: Repentance is not a stun its a sap & breaks if Any damage is done to the target, it also has a 1 minute CD & can be dispelled.

5: Divine Shield has a 5 minute CD & can be dispelled by priests which are an extremely common sight in ranked pvp, it also halves your damage while active & ret cannot heal like it could in wrath so you will be very lucky to of healed for 40% of your health while it's up.


Nothing in WoW compares to having an instant gap closer & snare because they Guarantee time on target, I can understand people wanting paladins to not have a carbon copy of other classes abilities but they need something to compensate for lacking an instant gap closer & snare because cleanse, HOF, Repent, & HOJ sure as hell doesn't due to the various design flaws they have.
They also need changes made to the ease with which many of their abilities can be dispelled.

[Vuagnon]

What I mostly find disturbing about the MoP talent design is that as a Paladin you have a crappy version of a snare and have to invest in at least 2 talents in order to have a better mechanic for it, while all other specs do have their accomplished snare mechanics embedded via baseline abilities, with talents only further upgrading them. Paladin seems to be left always a couple of steps back in the arms race.

[Talen]

What I mostly find disturbing about the MoP talent design is that as a Paladin you have a crappy version of a snare and have to invest in at least 2 talents in order to have a better mechanic for it, while all other specs do have their accomplished snare mechanics embedded via baseline abilities, with talents only further upgrading them. Paladin seems to be left always a couple of steps back in the arms race.

Is that all?

From Rets pov....the spec is forced to choose between support/offheal talents or heal/tanking talents in a couple of tiers, the DPS tiers essentially give the spec exactly what it has now, and as pointed out, obtaining a tool as basic and baseline as a gap closer requires the expenditure of 2-3 talents points to gain one set up that still has issues.

I'll point out again since its probably somewhat expected by now that the new talent system is also nothing more than Glyphs with a new name

EJL

[Deleted]

I think a good gap closing ability for a paladin that isn't simply a copy of Charge or Deathgrip would be something that pulls both the paladin and the target together (Like the Reaver's Grappling Chain ability in BLC http://youtu.be/5VCirOfWHeY?t=1m31s). Although on bosses it would still have to work like charge since bosses are immune to effects like knockback and Death Grip.

[Vuagnon]

Is that all?

From Rets pov....the spec is forced to choose between support/offheal talents or heal/tanking talents in a couple of tiers, the DPS tiers essentially give the spec exactly what it has now, and as pointed out, obtaining a tool as basic and baseline as a gap closer requires the expenditure of 2-3 talents points to gain one set up that still has issues.

I'll point out again since its probably somewhat expected by now that the new talent system is also nothing more than Glyphs with a new name

Of course not. What I said there was only about Paladin's snare mechanics going to take place in MoP. The class feels like a 3rd world country that has to resort to old warfare tech that has been put out of use by other advanced countries. Such like old rip-off tank models and etc. Just look at SoJ, it's a crappy snare which needs melee range and causes you to lose almost all of your damage and it lasts for what, only 5 seconds? We know pretty well almost any Ret would invest in Burden of Guild to have a reliable snare which actually doesn't suck, but as pointed out due to the 1) lack of an instant gap closer, 2) reliance to spamming cleanse, which is a horrible design imo, that 1 talent wont suffice to provide what is required of a snare either.

With Consecration sucking half of your mana pool and its 30 sec cooldown, Veneration just doesn't look like being more viable than AoS for Ret at this stage. Who cares about a group of people around you if you youself can't reach your bloody target and do your OWN job as a freaking MELEE!?

What I don't like about tier 4 is Eternal Glory because it's damn so similar to Divine Purpose. Attaching survivability with RNG just isn't a good idea imo. If you want to do that so badly, 1 freaking talent is enough seriously. In Cata, Ret was forced to be an offhealer with SH talent, the spec became so reliant to it such that ppl were getting Ret to their arena or rbg teams for the sole 2 purposes, burst and off healing. The new SH looks like it will not allow burst healing anymore, reason why they tied it to FoL is mostly because the cd on WoG is lost and they still want people who like that role to fullfill it in a less powerful way. You spot heal someone in a moderate amount every 10 secs or so, if not interrupted ofc. Sh could just not exist anymore as well if you ask me. It's effect is greatly decreased to what purpose? If I'm Holy, I can still heal good without it. It may be a decent mana saver for long pve scenarios though, wouldnt save lifes in PvP.

Holy Shield looks more attractive to me in that tier. It's always good to have an absorb effect on you, because it applies to all sorts of damage, with Ret's lack of survivability out of long cd cooldowns and WoG, it becomes even more viable. Clemency =? Prep

Ardent Defender is better than Sacred Shield to have simply because you can decide when to use it and you can use it for different purposes rather than having an automated cheat death. Pursuit of Justice is still meh imo, it could better be redesigned as a snare or stun resistance. Speed of Light apparently got some buffs after we qqd about LatoL's superiority.

In brief, I think I said what I don't like about the tree at all. What I would like to see if first off Burden of Guilt becoming baseline and the talent to perhaps further upgrading the lovely JUDGment with a root perhaps? or a daze effect? Ret will still need a better gap closing mechanic come MoP, mind you Warriors will be able to fight with 3 bloody stuns at the same bloody time when talented. The reason why I mentioned arms race before was because of this. Death to rogues! MoP's fotms when it launches will be Warrior and DK if the talents and abilities go in like this.

PS: I know most of the Paladins were expecting to see something more original in the new tree, especially in the last tier. I'm okay with the decision making stuff. One good thing with HA is it reduces the number of cooldowns for Ret by eliminating Zealotry in the equation. My concern about tier 3 is, HA and SW isnt that much different in the design aspect. One modifies the Guardian cooldown, the other modifies Wings. Both are cooldown oriented modifiers in the end. Instead of having 2 cooldown modifiers there, we could perhaps have something else as 3rd option? DP seems to be better than the current one, effecting only finishers instead of all bloody abilities, which was a real mess to begin with, and I still cant believe it survived till the end of expansion. As I have said though, having EG and DP together in the same tree sucks imo.

[Talen]

What I don't like about tier 4 is Eternal Glory because it's damn so similar to Divine Purpose.

I've already suggested the two be merged. I don't think the difference between the two is storng enough to warranet separation. OTOH, DP is good at what it does now...shake up the rotation, stop it being too static and reward paying attention. Which is why its a pity its becoming an T6 talent. Its the sort of tool that needs to be baseline.

Attaching survivability with RNG just isn't a good idea imo. If you want to do that so badly, 1 freaking talent is enough seriously. In Cata, Ret was forced to be an offhealer with SH talent, the spec became so reliant to it such that ppl were getting Ret to their arena or rbg teams for the sole 2 purposes, burst and off healing. The new SH looks like it will not allow burst healing anymore, reason why they tied it to FoL is mostly because the cd on WoG is lost and they still want people who like that role to fullfill it in a less powerful way. You spot heal someone in a moderate amount every 10 secs or so, if not interrupted ofc. Sh could just not exist anymore as well if you ask me. It's effect is greatly decreased to what purpose? If I'm Holy, I can still heal good without it. It may be a decent mana saver for long pve scenarios though, wouldnt save lifes in PvP.

The new SH shares many of the same issues the old SH does. The ramp up time, for example, stops it being readily available which severly limits its usefulness. HOWEVER, we saw that limitation didn't stop Ret early in Cataclysm as the spec just worked around such limitations. As such, allowing ret the possibility of being an off healer is bad given there is no sign of any balancing mechanics being put into play and forcing the spec into that role by providing no other suitable talents for it to use is bad.

Holy Shield looks more attractive to me in that tier. It's always good to have an absorb effect on you, because it applies to all sorts of damage, with Ret's lack of survivability out of long cd cooldowns and WoG, it becomes even more viable. Clemency =? Prep

Holy Shield is a HP consumer. As such, its not really suited for Ret unless you want to go for an offhealer role a la Disc. Clemeney looks like its has nice potential...as a support/healer tool.

Ardent Defender is better than Sacred Shield to have simply because you can decide when to use it and you can use it for different purposes rather than having an automated cheat death.

ADs the better tanking tool simply because of its power. SS is a ncie tanking tool for learner simply because its one less thing to worry about.

PS: I know most of the Paladins were expecting to see something more original in the new tree, especially in the last tier. I'm okay with the decision making stuff. One good thing with HA is it reduces the number of cooldowns for Ret by eliminating Zealotry in the equation.

By building it into the system. Its in a non-optimal position compared with current Live, but its still there. And that in turn seems to make a mockery of Blizzards sassertion that the new system will be less CD reliant. You pop HA, get Zealotry for free and then pop AW as normal. Pairing the choice with SW doesn't really affect things as a lot of the time, Zealotry+GAnK+AW results in 0 or 1 HoWs being used instead of three so anyone who thinks this limits the CD absed burst (e.g the devs) is mistaken. Its just a question whether its going to be worth using AW once every 5 minutes or holding GAnK to every 6.

And yes...giving AW a 3 min CD is not a valid way to reduce reliance on burst either.

As things stand, the new talent system is a mess in many ways....but with enough structure to let me suggest that it was designed this way and Blizzard is probably happy with it.

I think the new talent system is a poor way to handle Glyphs, I think it won't solve Blizzards issues wrt cutomistaion and individuality, and I think the idea needs to be expanded and overhauled to actually get it intoi a decent sdtate for all classes.

EJL

[Tricksterjim]

Here is a question for Prot Pallies. In order to get a charge would you be willing to give up your shield throw that hits 3 + Silences? If so, as a druid I am happy to switch with you.

I don't play ret, but they have a lot of utility, if they wanted to get charge I would quest they would have to lose cleanse, since wars, rogues and DKs dont have. Druids can remove poisons (outside resto spec). They would probably also have to lose hand of freedom, since the other mellees can't remove snares, I mean the purposefully removed that ability from druids. You guys have a good setup. Yes a charge would be nice, but I doubt you are prepared to sacrifice other tools to get it.

[Talen]

Here is a question for Prot Pallies. In order to get a charge would you be willing to give up your shield throw that hits 3 + Silences? If so, as a druid I am happy to switch with you.

I don't play ret, but they have a lot of utility, if they wanted to get charge I would quest they would have to lose cleanse, since wars, rogues and DKs dont have.

You mistake having a tool and assume it is actually benefical. A lot of Paladins complained because Cleanse without the ability to remove Magic lost a LOT of its value and a Cleanse with the ability to remove snares simply wasn't and isn't seen as a good enough fix. As regards AS, you also assume that it must be one or the other....it can be both especially when both tools fill different roles, different niches. A Charge on a 3 min CD for example would fill certain niches and roles for Ret and prot and work well as part of a gap closing toolkit...but it could never, ever replace AS.

You don't play Ret...fine. But thats also means you have no real idea of the issues that concern the spec. Its not as simpel a matter as swappign one tool for another...its a matter of looking at the entire toolkit.

And...right now...that toolkit is lacking what is, for ANY melee class, a critical tool and the improvements being showcased for MoP don't seem to be a huge improvement. The class gets to spend 3 or 4 Talent points simply to obtain a reliable and available gap closer that is seen as viable....and the fact many are considering doing that simply showcases how VITAL that tool is and simply illustartes how poor the current set up currently is...despite the fact it already contains much of that functionality and indeed, many of the tools you mention.

As it stands, you also overlook the little fact that cleanse and other such tools also have analogues with other melee classes. What makes them doiffernet is not really their presence...but their ability to be used on others.

What I would be prepared to "give up" as a Ret or prot would depend solely on what toolkit the class got to replace it. Avengers Shield is a pulling tool, for example, and doesn't really foll the same role as a Charge mechanic.

EJL

[zcks]

Here is a question for Prot Pallies. In order to get a charge would you be willing to give up your shield throw that hits 3 + Silences?
I don't play ret, but they have a lot of utility, if they wanted to get charge I would quest they would have to lose cleanse, since wars, rogues and DKs dont have. Druids can remove poisons (outside resto spec). They would probably also have to lose hand of freedom, since the other mellees can't remove snares, I mean the purposefully removed that ability from druids. You guys have a good setup. Yes a charge would be nice, but I doubt you are prepared to sacrifice other tools to get it.

1: As a prot paladin there is no real need for an instant gap closer, which is why many people suggest it be ret only.

2: While ret may have allot of defensive utility it is almost all made useless because of offensive dispels & what little offensive utility the spec has is made near useless by defensive dispels.

3: True if ret were to get an instant gap closer + a snare it would probably need to lose hand of freedom, cleanse however it probably wouldn't need to lose.

4: Lastly they didn't remove druids ability to remove snares, they removed their ability to remove roots which far fewer people have & nobody but druids can spam unlike snares.


Frankly in the long run blizzard is never going to give paladins an instant gap closer, improvements to the paladin anti kiting & ranged toolkit are another story however. Hopefully they make further improvements (allot of them) before MOP comes however because with the toolkit & talents they have shown so far ret will be even farther behind in allot of areas then it has been this expansion.

[Sathen]

I was pretty disappointed when that thread got locked, it was going quite well until about page 15 when a warrior came in, told everyone l2p, paladins are OP, etc, leading to the lock. What I suggested was an attack that pulled you and the target together, like what's been mentioned here, and make it work like charge against boss level mobs.

[Talen]

I was pretty disappointed when that thread got locked, it was going quite well until about page 15 when a warrior came in, told everyone l2p, paladins are OP, etc, leading to the lock. What I suggested was an attack that pulled you and the target together, like what's been mentioned here, and make it work like charge against boss level mobs.

There have been lots of suggested solutions to the problem of melee and having a gap closer mechanics. But they essentially are "either one or other of the pair moves towarsd the other (slow or fast) or neither move and attack each other anyway"


Instant - the Charge mechanic
Warriors and druids move themselves
DKs move the target

Closing slow (via creating a speed differential)
Snares move the target "by slowing him so the gap decreases".
Sprints move the caster "by speeding him up"

The answer for the paladin depends on how unique you want it to and the style you want it to take.

EJL

[Holtzmann]

I'd go with a combination of Snares and Sprints. Preferably an undispellable non-spammable (say, 30 second) root combined with a a short speed-reduction immune sprint. Yes, charge is fun, but I like having something a little more versatile.

[Vuagnon]

They could give the Heroic Leap to Paladins and give Warriors something else for compensation. Warrior will already be op with 3 stuns..
Or they could make Burden of Guilt baseline, make the talent cause an undispellable root/immobilize effect for a short time and make HoF undispellable.

[Holtzmann]

Please, no Heroic Leap. While the concept for that ability is fun and all, the implementation is horribly meh. Although if you added a free Consecrate to the end of it, it might make a good pair with Veneration. Still, not worth it. I've lost count of the times I either jumped to an entirely different place, spent five seconds trying to figure out why it wouldn't let me jump across open space, or fell through the world while using Heroic Leap.

[Vodalos]

I vote paladins get the leap like on LK in ICC with the same animation!!

Yeah coupled with a disarm mechanic.

[Veliane]

2: Give the spec a snare, which helps you stay on target once your there but doesn't really help you get there unless it's ranged even then it's sub par to #1 (especially if it can be dispelled).

3: Give the spec better anti kiting abilities, allot of people think this is what's happening next expansion but in reality losing the constant +15% run speed talent cancels out any gain ret got.

4: Increased the specs ability to do deal damage at a range, this is easily done by having art of war always make exorcism instant but not give it's other effects unless it procs. (after that simple tweak the mana cost of exorcism, plus as a bonus there will be no more dead time.)

I think if you move Veneration to Long Arm of the Law (change it's duration to as long as concecration holds) and LaotL to Burden of Guilt (Combine them) gives us a lot of freedom to pick how do we move.

10% at all times + 10/20/30% depending on HP
or
60% Sprint that Heals.
or
Immunity as long as concecration holds (12sec glyphed).

plus the Sprint + the Snare in one is a start.


Then there would be left adding one talent to where veneration goes, and changing clemency cause it's really crappy.

[Olianda]

Well, whatever it is, it has to contain any of the following: Justice, Divine, Holy, or Sanctity.

I like "Divine Rescue" which seems like an Intervene style thing.