Turning a 10m into a 25m

[pokemart]

I currently lead a semi-casual 10m raid raiding 2 days a week sitting at 6/8 except I amtired of not having an optimal composition for buffs and I really don't want to make people change specs.

I was wondering how easy it would be to transition to a 25m raid group?
What should I expect for difficulty and changes?



I hope I posted this in the right section and thank you in advance

[Intropid]

Difficulty in the actual fights? No.

Difficulty in actually managing to find the 15 more people? Yes.

[Kapaya]

Difficulty in the actual fights? No.

Heh, good one.

[Mckaguer]

The fights on normal not much difference, but ya finding and maintaining an extra 15 people that are all looking for mostly the same thing, that is the real tricky part. If you do try the change, be prepared to go through 50+ people before you establish an ok 25 man. If your up for the work, then good luck to you.

[terrih91]

your best bet is to find another 10 man guild thats strugling like you are and is looking to merge together. thats the easiest way to go from 10 to 25. the hard way is to mass recruit from trade which can take forever depending on your server. plus there is the added effect of the trade troll heroes that are bad and you find that out real fast. my best advice... find another 10 man that wants to go 25 like you and merge. its easier to find 3-5 people from trade than 15.

[sleepingforest]

organization-wise...it's a nightmare, just recruit one or two more people or ask people to level an alt if you want a better composition. if your only motivation is having a better composition, you're going to get worn out long before you even find the extra 15 people geared/skilled/willing (unless you find another likeminded 10man to merge with.)

[Samanx]

organization-wise...it's a nightmare, just recruit one or two more people or ask people to level an alt if you want a better composition. if your only motivation is having a better composition, you're going to get worn out long before you even find the extra 15 people geared/skilled/willing (unless you find another likeminded 10man to merge with.)

he has it nailed on the head, look for another 10man to merge with

[Stevoman]

Boss HP is proportionally much bigger since Blizzard makes some assumptions about raid buffs, so your individual DPS will have to perform to a much higher caliber.
Group positioning will be much more difficult, especially with things like green ooze on HC Yor'Sahj. Your melee will probably take some time getting used to this, so be patient.
Healers will be stretched thinner, since you'll be running proportionally less (6/25 instead of 3/10).
Because you have more raid cooldowns to work with, raid damage that you could previously ignore will be proportionally higher, so your healers will have to step up their awareness and communication in coordinating damage CDs.
You'll be receiving less tier tokens per member, so you'll have to make sure your comp is split up among the 3 token types evenly. Avoiding running a DK/Druid tank combo, as they'll both be on the same token.

Those are the big ones I can think of off the top of my head. Oh yes, except for the whole finding 15 more competent players thing, which is hands down the hardest of everything I mentioned so far.

[mboisso]

I agree that the biggest difficulty is organization. However, there are also some (minor) strat differences, even in reg mode.
Examples :
- Morchok
- 10man requires 3 shard soakers, there will likely be a healer in this
- 25man requires 7, no healer required to take it
- Ultraxion
- 10m requires only tanks taking Hour of Twilight
- 25m requires one more soaker (spriest with dispersion, fire mage with cauterize or iceblock, rogue with cloak, hunter with detterence, etc.)
- Spine
- 10m : one high burst dps can take care of Fiery grips
- 25m : you need at least 3, if not 4, with backups, to do that
- Madness
- In 10man, you can solo-tank+2heals and burn to get only 1 Impale.
- 25man can't be solo-tank (not unless you got ubber dps, which 2-3 more healer going dps won't make)
- This also affects the easiest order for the plateforms.

Another difficulty that you will encounter is that some people's computer just won't follow to 25man. A very good example is Ultraxion. In the first week, barely any 25man guilds killed it because of the ubber lag, even on good computers, whereas 10man guilds could breeze through it. Expect some of your 10 players not to be able to follow you in 25man because of that very reason.

[Deleted]

every single 25man raider finds hundreds arguments why 25 is harder than 10 and vice versa.

[Gilian]

If you can't merge with another 10 man guild or recruit 10-15 people all at once or something you will have even more problems. When you recruit one at a time you will have to rotate members for raids or just bench people which some don't like. Maybe at some point you can do two 10 man raids at a time. This means more work for you because you have to make even teams and take guildmembers personal preferences into account. In my old 25 man guild in WotLK we had drama enough when running two 10 man raids.

I had my own 25 man guild in TBC and we raided 5 evenings a week. If you are lucky things work out if you are not you get 15 members who make problems about everything from loot to using a certain spec to who they play with. We had major problems recruiting new players to replace some bad apples so we just had to hang in there with a few players who basicly ruined it for the others. If we had a choice back then we probably would have gone to 10 man raiding and wait for better players to come along.

It's just more work. Better organise things very well from the start and plan.

[Deleted]

Merge is the only way today.

The other way is not an option unless if you manage to keep the people busy with a second group while your main group keeps raiding 10.
Soon that will not be an option either since by definition the new comers will start pushing for a spot in the "good" group.
If you decide to do it, take 2 weeks off from work and devote in it more hours than you ever had for an in game activity.
You have to be fast, efficient, and lucky.

Merges are another type of headache.
Be prepared for the typical power strugle between the officers of the two guilds, with each trying to reserve as many priviledges for "his own" people.
Usualy those merges don't work well, and you will end up with a cluster of the initial group (at best) that merged with you, while the rest will leave the guilds after tons of drama.
Still it's the way to go, while this tier is still relevant.
Around the end of spring when the new expansion will be the only thing that people have in their mind, you will have better chances to grow, provided that raiding model will stay the same for Mists of Pandaria.
Before expansions, people that don't enjoy much the team they re with, or the progress this team offers to them, are more ready to change guild, or leave their guild and look for another.

My advice is to wait for official confermation about how the things will be in MoP, regarding the raiding model and don't go into this trouble now.
Push recruitment to form a second group consisted of alts and new recruits, in order to solve set up issues in certain fights. Don't hesitate to pug a spot or 2 there, since completing a group with people not in the guild is the best way to find new people, besides success in the raids. Puggers that will enjoy their time with your team are very likely to join your guild and you get to know the people not the numbers only.

[Deleted]

Boss HP is proportionally much bigger since Blizzard makes some assumptions about raid buffs, so your individual DPS will have to perform to a much higher caliber.
Group positioning will be much more difficult, especially with things like green ooze on HC Yor'Sahj. Your melee will probably take some time getting used to this, so be patient.
Healers will be stretched thinner, since you'll be running proportionally less (6/25 instead of 3/10).
Because you have more raid cooldowns to work with, raid damage that you could previously ignore will be proportionally higher, so your healers will have to step up their awareness and communication in coordinating damage CDs.
You'll be receiving less tier tokens per member, so you'll have to make sure your comp is split up among the 3 token types evenly. Avoiding running a DK/Druid tank combo, as they'll both be on the same token.

Those are the big ones I can think of off the top of my head. Oh yes, except for the whole finding 15 more competent players thing, which is hands down the hardest of everything I mentioned so far.

Boss HP is proportionally much bigger since Blizzard knows that you have all raid buffs and can stack higher dps classes to a much higher degree.
Group positioning can be tricky in 25m, just not for 4.3, everything is stack and nuke and the few encounters that ain't the spread range is only 4 yards, you shouldn't have more than 5 melee (tanks excluded) in your group, so spreading out shouldn't be that much of a hassle.
Healers will have it a lot easier, as their heals are much more effective. The tank doesn't take more dmg and can usually be kept up hots, beacons and shields.
Because you have so many raid cooldowns, bliz decided that the raid dmg should be higher, but the raid dmg is still so low that it's not an issue, unless you forget to use the cds of course.
You'll be receiving a more steady flow of tokens instead of just getting your 10 protector token for your lone warrior tank, there is much less rng in 25m than 10m.

[Deleted]

Dont do it. 10 man is easier overall. I did the 10 to 25 man jump and i regret it.

[tenub]

Dont do it. 10 man is easier overall. I did the 10 to 25 man jump and i regret it.

<3 <3 <3 <3