Turning off the "5% buff" is not an option...

[Raphtheone]

We will only use that buff on farm content. It won't kill our guild, since our WR is crap enough for us to afford it.

There's a big difference between can't, and won't. The buff is optional.

[Deleted]

If your guild dies because of 5% difference in boss health and damage, that says more about your guild than it does the nerf.

I don't believe, that's what he's saying. Cause lets be honest. If you guild is behind the average server progression for whatever reason, it is likely that you'll loose members to more progressed guilds and this is speaking in general terms. Now add the 5% buff and chose not to use it while the rest of the server is. Then it becomes plausible that the 5% buff will in fact contribute to your guild loosing members, assuming you chose not to use it.

And in that sense I understand what Brett Skullcrack is getting at. I kinda want to compare this with the LFR 4p bonus. Sure it's s choice whether you do it or not, but if you want to keep up, you farm LFR until you have your 4p bonus. Regardless if you "have to" or not.

It's a natural reaction in the raiding community if you ask me.

[Nobleshield]

What I still find kind of amusing is that T11 HMs have never and seemingly will never be nerfed, so technically the starter tier is harder than the later tiers. If anyone in my guild whines about the nerfs I'll tell them if they want a real challenge go buy T11 gear from the vendor and do T11 HMs with tier-appropriate gear (think like a non-achievement version of Herald of the Titans) since that would still be a challenge.

[Nelrock]

Yes im still competing within my server. Whats so hard to understand about this?

I already know im not competing at the world level, in fact many of the guilds out there are only considering their servers competition.
Whether the competition is at a regional level or top of the world the point stands true, this buff is not a real option.

What's so hard to understand that everybody else on your server is getting the buff too? Therefore, the playing field is exactly the same...you're still competing within your server.
To argue against the buff, means you're still competing with guilds that have already won. That race...is over on Jan 31.

[Abandon]

I don't believe, that's what he's saying. Cause lets be honest. If you guild is behind the average server progression for whatever reason, it is likely that you'll loose members to more progressed guilds and this is speaking in general terms. Now add the 5% buff and chose not to use it while the rest of the server is. Then it becomes plausible that the 5% buff will in fact contribute to your guild loosing members, assuming you chose not to use it.

And in that sense I understand what Brett Skullcrack is getting at. I kinda want to compare this with the LFR 4p bonus. Sure it's s choice whether you do it or not, but if you want to keep up, you farm LFR until you have your 4p bonus. Regardless if you "have to" or not.

It's a natural reaction in the raiding community if you ask me.

In situations like this, I am not sure why they would have such an issue with leaving the buff on then. If your Guild is behind on progression and you are interested in progressing, then you can leave it turned on. If you prefer to defeat the encounter without the buff, then you have that option too. The only issue is if you want the raid to be as easy as possible so you can progress but also want bragging rights about defeating it without the nerf.

[Pol-Kinabol]

There's still the guilds who record their kills, you can see if they did turn it off or not, which will improve their glory compared to those who did turn it off.

[Gandrake]

and yet its still optional

dare you to try asking a pug raid to turn it off, or see what happens if you turn it off

But eh, w/e. Normal mode is ez mode. Hardmode raiders won't care - it'll make farming spine/madness a couple minutes shorter, normal raiders should be happy they killed it pre-nerf or sad that they are being dragged down by someone with downs syndrome and didn't kill DW pre-nerf and everyone else doesn't matter.

[Brett Skullcrack]

Guilds that NEED the buff to progress are already left behind in progress. The race is over, "real raiders" already know this.

The only guilds it doesn't affect are the ones that are 8/8 hc. Everyone else is still racing against each other. You can be a "real raider" that only raids 2 days per week, in which case you're competing with other 2 days per week guilds. If those guilds use the buff, they will beat you in progress and get better apps than you. It's that simple.

---------- Post added 2012-01-20 at 12:57 PM ----------

In situations like this, I am not sure why they would have such an issue with leaving the buff on then.

Because it sucks getting content nerfed from under you when when you're doing fine, just progressing slower due to choice (like only raiding 2-3 days per week). Lets say a 3-day per week guild is progressing on spine hc. It takes 200-300 wipes to kill it in 25 man, lets say you've been there for two weeks and have done ~150 wipes and getting closer to the kill all the time. Now Blizzard comes along and hands you 5% buff which means the boss will die in a few tries. You didn't ask for the buff, you were doing great progress, but you just chose to move slower than hc guilds, but because Blizzard needs you to finish the content fast so they can sell you MoP they rob you of your ability to progress through the content at the difficulty it was designed to be at your own pace.

If you prefer to defeat the encounter without the buff, then you have that option too. The only issue is if you want the raid to be as easy as possible so you can progress but also want bragging rights about defeating it without the nerf.

But that's not an option. Guilds live and die by recruitment. Recruitment for large part, unfortunately, comes down to progress and rankings. If you don't use the buff you will lose to other guilds in progress and ranking and they will take the best recruits.

[Abandon]

Because it sucks getting content nerfed from under you when when you're doing fine, just progressing slower due to choice (like only raiding 2-3 days per week). Lets say a 3-day per week guild is progressing on spine hc. It takes 200-300 wipes to kill it in 25 man, lets say you've been there for two weeks and have done ~150 wipes and getting closer to the kill all the time. Now Blizzard comes along and hands you 5% buff which means the boss will die in a few tries. You didn't ask for the buff, you were doing great progress, but you just chose to move slower than hc guilds, but because Blizzard needs you to finish the content fast so they can sell you MoP they rob you of your ability to progress through the content at the difficulty it was designed to be at your own pace.

That's, rather simply, untrue. They have not robbed you of the ability to progress through the content at the difficulty it was designed. You are choosing not to experience the content at that difficulty because you have an easier option. You can claim that it isn't a choice, but you are wrong.

It is, you just don't want to admit it.

But that's not an option.

Yes it is. It doesn't matter if you don't like the choice, that doesn't change the fact that you DO have a choice, and are choosing not to turn off the buff.

Guilds live and die by recruitment. Recruitment for large part, unfortunately, comes down to progress and rankings. If you don't use the buff you will lose to other guilds in progress and ranking and they will take the best recruits.

So you are saying you do have a choice and can use this option. You just won't because you want to look better on rankings.

That is a choice. Please stop claiming it isn't just because you don't like the options given.

[Brett Skullcrack]

That is a choice. Please stop claiming it isn't just because you don't like the options given.

It is a possible choice in the sense that you can physically flick the switch and not take the buff, sure. But doing so you're flicking the switch on killing your guild also. It's a tradeoff: Take the buff and don't experience the content at the difficulty it was designed vs. let your guild die. NOBODY will take the latter one now, nobody took it in ICC. So it's a choice sure, but only a theoretical one.

The game is full of such tradeoffs, some painful, which is fine. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is forcing that tradeoff on hc raiders when there is absolutely no reason to do so given the existence LFR and normal mode.

[jimbojonez]

we have NO choice but to use the 5% buff to stay competitive.

The competition is over, it ended without you. An option that you refuse to acknowledge is still an option.

[Brett Skullcrack]

The competition is over, it ended without you. An option that you refuse to acknowledge is still an option.

Every guild in the world has cleared 8/8 hc? Okay. World top 70 competition is over, everything else is up for grabs. Regardless of your ranking you are always competing against other guilds for recruits and until you're 8/8 hc you are in a race.

[Deleted]

I like how you state that anyone who thinks that turning off the buff is an option isn't a "real raider" yet me - a staunch supporter of the buff - is probably more of a real raider than you are.

Funny that.

[Abandon]

It is a possible choice in the sense that you can physically flick the switch and not take the buff, sure. But doing so you're flicking the switch on killing your guild also. It's a tradeoff: Take the buff and don't experience the content at the difficulty it was designed vs. let your guild die. NOBODY will take the latter one now, nobody took it in ICC. So it's a choice sure, but only a theoretical one.

The game is full of such tradeoffs, some painful, which is fine. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is forcing that tradeoff on hc raiders when there is absolutely no reason to do so given the existence LFR and normal mode.

They were rather clear on why they did so in the forum post, actually. They are watching progression of all guilds overall, and have seen that a lot of guilds have hit a wall and that not as many Guilds have progressed as far in the raid as they wished. The hardcore type players have cleared it, and now guilds who are a little further behind on progression are getting a very small boost to help with progress. If progress is more important for your Guild than defeating the encounter at the original difficulty, you use the buff. They could have nerfed the encounter itself, meaning you would never get the chance to do the original difficulty version, but instead they gave players a choice. The main complaint seems to be that players don't want to actually make that choice.

Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actually statistical date we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether.

[Gilian]

You also have different opinions in guilds and in the end the guildleader/raidleader decides. Let's say I want to do it without buff and 75% of my guild wants to do it with buff then I really do not have a choice. I then have to make the choice between raiding nerfed content or leave my guild and find a guild who raids without the buff and with the same progress (good luck!).

And like someone else said. It's like choosing to raid without any gear on.
You also have the choice not to farm gear and raid. Yet everyone does it. There is also no reward at all for doing it without buff/debuff. And most people always take the easiest path to their goals.

Being able to turn off the buff is just some lame excuse to say they still cater to people who don't want hardmodes to be nerfed but in the end it doesn't work that way. People using the same argument on the forums is only annoying. You know perfectly well that it's not that simple.

[Brett Skullcrack]

They were rather clear on why they did so in the forum post, actually. They are watching progression of all guilds overall, and have seen that a lot of guilds have hit a wall and that not as many Guilds have progressed as far in the raid as they wished.

I understand perfectly well why they did it. They have an internal date when they need to sell MoP. At that point they will need to have pushed majority of people through the Cata content or people will be yelling at them for releasing new content before they're done with the old one. That's why they have a cutoff date when they NEED to have pushed certain number of people through the content.

There is no reason whatsoever to introduce this buff to HC. You want people to "see the content", fine put the buff in normal mode if for some reason you think LFR wasn't enough. The whole point of HC mode was to serve as the ultimate challenge, not something that you get a free ride through like you get in LFR and normal.

[microtonal]

It's option in the sense that it's technically possible to use. It's not a realistic option since using it will almost guarantee your guild will die out as a result of getting left behind in progress.

It's an option by definition, because that's what the word "option" means. Your emotional reaction to the choices that are available isn't capable of changing that.

And I would agree that if a global 5% nerf to the current raid tier kills off your guild, then your guild has already been dead-man-walking for at least a full tier.

[Brett Skullcrack]

It's an option by definition, because that's what the word "option" means. Your emotional reaction to the choices that are available isn't capable of changing that.

And you're arguing pointless semantics because NOBODY will take that option. Nobody did in ICC.

[Gilian]

What's so hard to understand that everybody else on your server is getting the buff too? Therefore, the playing field is exactly the same...you're still competing within your server.
To argue against the buff, means you're still competing with guilds that have already won. That race...is over on Jan 31.

So not using the buff is NO option in his case. Really hard to understand isn't it?

He wants to compete for realm first without nerfing content.

[Anjerith]

Your right, nobody will turn it off. Not really a need for a thread on it. It IS an option though.