25 H Ultraxion Feral Cat Analysis

[Jadenlei]

Hello all, my guild is currently working on 25 H Ultraxion, after a few nights, we have seen 13% with about 30 seconds till enrage. We still have work to be done, managing raid CD coverage and healing, but we are well on our way. I am however noticing trends in our DPS, the weak links most times being our hunters, boomkins, and ferals. I have other posts on other forums attempting to breakdown and analyze potential DPS and min/maxing in 'weaker classes', but for the sake of this discussion let us focus on Feral Cat DPS.

I hope to create somewhat of an compendium with many peoples thoughts and ideas, substantiated with math or not. Lets just get a collaboration going to see what we can come up with. Rather than just saying "Don't bring it, derp"

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Highest WoL recorded parse is roughly 43k.

The Feral in my guild I have seen peak to 37k -but it is typically lower.

First lets assume that the Feral will NOT be getting DI, ToTT or any other external DPS buffs. Lets go baseline numbers- The biggest glaring issue is being unable to Shred. I have seen claims that you can in fact turn the boss slightly and allow for Shred/Backstab, though I have not seen any parses reflecting this. The other problem with this-even if it does work is the obvious; that person standing out is gonna die by not being in the AoE heals/CDs.

After talking with my Feral- per Blizzard, Mangling in place of Shredding should only be ~5% difference in DMG. Though I feel this is inaccurate too.
So substitute Mangle for Shred- you have no other choice.

Glyphing:

I have seen people suggesting that Mangle/TF/Rip is better than Mangle/Berserk/Rip.

Berserk is a 3min CD, so on a 6 min like H Ultraxion is, popping it at the very beginning, you will only ever get 2 uses.
15 sec unglyphed = 30 seconds or 8.3% uptime total fight of 50% reduced energy cost.
25 sec glyphed = 50 seconds or 13.8% uptime total fight with 50% reduced energy cost

Tigers Fury is 30 sec CD for 6 Sec of 15% increased DMG.
30 sec CD unglyphed means 12 uses for a total of 72 sec or 20% uptime on 15% increased DMG.
27 sec CD glyphed means 13.33333333 uses for a total of 80 sec or 22.222% uptime on 15% increased DMG.

Mangle and Rip glyphs are a given.


Reforging:

I have seen different suggestions being made,

- Keep traditional reforges
- Adjust for hit cap since attacking from front
- Hit>Mastery>Haste
- etc.

I do not know Feral Cat well enough to make assertions, I just would like to have some further insight so that I can we can have a nice theorycrafting session before our next outing with Ultraxion.

The obvious solution to all of this would just be to change and allow for Shred/Backstab, but until that change we'll have to make due trying to min/max DPS with Mangle spam.

Ideas/thought/opinions would be greatly valued here. I'm sure there are many a feral druid out there seeking ways to improve their H Ultraxion DPS.
Thanks.

[earthwormjim]

Besides not being able to shred, the hardest part for a feral on that fight is dealing with the rotation change that occurs since you can no longer use glyph of bloodletting. You have zero room for error when you try to weave in ferocious bites the first 40% of the fight.

I did 38k dps on that fight, and I am damn proud of it considering I do not have a vial and I had the most fading lights out of anyone. My reforge strategy was (and is) a balance between haste and mastery (both at ~1750). I'm automatically hit/exp capped with my gear.

Honestly though, if your feral is doing 37k, you can't ask for much more. Post logs though, if that's 37k in recount, then that's kind of low. Recount is going to show you higher dps numbers than you're actually doing.

Glyph of berserk worked much better for me than tiger's fury. Glyph of tiger's fury messed things up; without the glyph every other rip I applied would line up perfectly with a tiger's fury. With the glyph, they would never line up. So the first 60% of the fight I was not able to apply rips with tiger's fury except on the pull...

So from my experience, Mangle/Berserk/Rip is best.

Earthwormjim on these logs: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4h...?s=4024&e=4382

[Deleted]

Glyph of berserk worked much better for me than tiger's fury.

Yeah, berserk is far superior to TG in any boss fight. The math Jadenlei did shows it, a 2.2% uptime increase for TF or 5.5% uptime for Berserk. kinda a no brainer.
I prefere Bloodletting TBH, the extra ticks on Rip give you more bites sub 60%. You dont have to worry about Rip every 15 seconds.

[earthwormjim]

Yeah, berserk is far superior to TG in any boss fight. The math Jadenlei did shows it, a 2.2% uptime increase for TF or 5.5% uptime for Berserk. kinda a no brainer.
I prefere Bloodletting TBH, the extra ticks on Rip give you more bites sub 60%. You dont have to worry about Rip every 15 seconds.

If you can overcome the awkwardness of our rotation without bloodlettings, mangle is better. You still have pretty insane combo point generation using mangle for ferocious bites.

[tangedyn]

You could just run your profile through Mew with the Ultraxion checkbox ticked.
The sim confirms that Mangle + Rip + Berserk is optimal.

[Kittahsmash]

One extra use (going by your numbers. I don't count the .333333 as an extra use) out of TF because of the TF glyph, assuming you're able to hit it perfectly on the 27 second mark everytime (having to hit the button for fading light / the big boom can make you mess that up) is not even close to being worth losing the ~20 seconds on 2xberserk.

[Zheryn]

For me it shows as around 400 DPS increase to switch GoBL to GoM for that fight, but as it changes the rotation quite massively I haven't been able to put up higher numbers with GoM than GoBL. I would have to get a lot of practise-time to perfect GoM playstyle but as we've already killed this boss I don't feel like it's necessary to put that time in to one farmboss.

37k from a feral on this fight ain't bad tho since we have to stay 16 seconds in bear form.

[earthwormjim]

For me it shows as around 400 DPS increase to switch GoBL to GoM for that fight, but as it changes the rotation quite massively I haven't been able to put up higher numbers with GoM than GoBL. I would have to get a lot of practise-time to perfect GoM playstyle but as we've already killed this boss I don't feel like it's necessary to put that time in to one farmboss.

37k from a feral on this fight ain't bad tho since we have to stay 16 seconds in bear form.

Why would you have to stay in bear form for 16 seconds. You don't need the tank buff even if you're in a soaking group.

[Deleted]

He needs to give FR to the rest of the raid though...read 4t13 description.
And having barkskin on for 24 seconds in every 30 second time is of great value.

[Zheryn]

Why would you have to stay in bear form for 16 seconds. You don't need the tank buff even if you're in a soaking group.

Ferals on this fight switch to bear right before the tank buff is about to come, so the opening is abit messy and you'll be in bear form a few seconds in the start of the fight.

Later on in the fight we have to stay in bear form for 15 seconds to be able to activate 4t13.

So it's a total of maybe 20 seconds during the fight in which you are not in cat form.

[Richmond]

Besides not being able to shred, the hardest part for a feral on that fight is dealing with the rotation change that occurs since you can no longer use glyph of bloodletting. You have zero room for error when you try to weave in ferocious bites the first 40% of the fight.

Not sure if this is just a glaring mistake but Glyph of Bloodletting is effected by both Shred and Mangle now, pretty sure it changed a few hot patches ago when all the ferals were moaning about there DPS on Rag being difficult when we had to stand so far away from the rest of the group just to be competitive (at his back).

I'm no way near that sort of DPS but napkin math leads me to Bloodletting, Mangle and Rip. Rip and Mangle are a given. I can't see how TF will out dps Bloodletting considering you'll be able to mangle more often (at least 2 in the 6 extra seconds you get from the glyph) which is much better than being able to press it once more in a 6 minute fight. Also, berserk is almost wasted as regardless of when you pop it, the last few seconds will almost always go to waste due to Hour of twilight (you'll have to press it whilst berserk is still up)

[Zheryn]

I'm no way near that sort of DPS but napkin math leads me to Bloodletting, Mangle and Rip. Rip and Mangle are a given.

Berserk and Rip are the given glyphs. There's not much difference between using Mangle or Bloodletting for the last slot, but Mangle is a slight DPS upgrade if you adapt good to the new rotation.

---------- Post added 2012-01-29 at 05:03 PM ----------

Also, berserk is almost wasted as regardless of when you pop it, the last few seconds will almost always go to waste due to Hour of twilight (you'll have to press it whilst berserk is still up)

You pop first Berserk in the start of the fight when there is no HoT and pop the second after an HoT and since HoT only comes every 45 seconds you'll never have Berserk during HoT. Ultimately you'll be soaking an HoT somewhere after your 2nd Berserk is up so you can Berserk right after the Fading Light that comes before your HoT which means you have zero chance at having to use Heroic Will during Berserk since he doesn't cast Fading Light a while before or after HoT.

[earthwormjim]

Berserk and Rip are the given glyphs. There's not much difference between using Mangle or Bloodletting for the last slot, but Mangle is a slight DPS upgrade if you adapt good to the new rotation.

Looking over my logs, I'm starting to believe blood letting is best, unless you are blessed and rarely receive hour of twilight.

The 10% mangle damage would easily have been overcome if I had blood letting glyph, rip would not have fallen off in the fight and I would have had better savage roar up time. Those two abilities alone would have equaled the 10% damage on mangle, and on top of it I would have done more ferocious bites.

[tangedyn]

Please link the logs

[SmokeyIllidan]

Disagreeing with your post. Mangle is not mandatory by any stretch of the imagination, in fact it can be a detriment to your DPS. Blood Letting is a far superior choice for a geared feral. The amount of ferocious bites and rip not falling off more than makes up for the 10% increase to mangle. Tested first hand.

I will admit I got my highest spike in DPS of 43k sustained with the mangle glyph, one time. I can steadily pull off 42k with Blood Letting almost every attempt. The choice is clear imo.

Ferals on this fight switch to bear right before the tank buff is about to come, so the opening is abit messy and you'll be in bear form a few seconds in the start of the fight.

Later on in the fight we have to stay in bear form for 15 seconds to be able to activate 4t13.

So it's a total of maybe 20 seconds during the fight in which you are not in cat form.

The opener is basically... Rake > Mangle > Roar > Mangle > TF > Mangle > Ravage > Rip. If done properly, you shift directly after the rip, should hear the line of "Protect them now, the last defenders of Azeroth" or some shit. You'll see the last defender debuff pop up, quickly shift back into cat, Barkskin (enjoy the 25 second duration, 30 second CD, your healers sure will) and pop Zerk. Your opener isn't as strong as it could be since you're doing the bear trick, but trust me on this. Your healers will thank you. There is zero reason for a feral to NOT get this buff. You don't like 25 out of 30 second Barkskins? Being able to soak 2 Hours, having Shield Wall for both of them. Oh and the best part? When you pop your glyphed 4p later in the fight, it's like 30 seconds long instead of 15. Yeah, completely worth getting the last defender buff.

[Zheryn]

Disagreeing with your post. Mangle is not mandatory by any stretch of the imagination, in fact it can be a detriment to your DPS. Blood Letting is a far superior choice for a geared feral. The amount of ferocious bites and rip not falling off more than makes up for the 10% increase to mangle. Tested first hand.

I will admit I got my highest spike in DPS of 43k sustained with the mangle glyph, one time. I can steadily pull off 42k with Blood Letting almost every attempt. The choice is clear imo.



The opener is basically... Rake > Mangle > Roar > Mangle > TF > Mangle > Ravage > Rip. If done properly, you shift directly after the rip, should hear the line of "Protect them now, the last defenders of Azeroth" or some shit. You'll see the last defender debuff pop up, quickly shift back into cat, Barkskin (enjoy the 25 second duration, 30 second CD, your healers sure will) and pop Zerk. Your opener isn't as strong as it could be since you're doing the bear trick, but trust me on this. Your healers will thank you. There is zero reason for a feral to NOT get this buff. You don't like 25 out of 30 second Barkskins? Being able to soak 2 Hours, having Shield Wall for both of them. Oh and the best part? When you pop your glyphed 4p later in the fight, it's like 30 seconds long instead of 15. Yeah, completely worth getting the last defender buff.

Exactly what I mean. A small DPS loss in the start and a greater in the end where you stay in bear for 16 seconds. And it becomes a 40 second buff of +30% raid healing when you have it, which isn't something you want to pass out on.

Btw what happends if several ferals use 4t13 right after eachother, do they overwrite? I suppose you can't stack them

[earthwormjim]

Disagreeing with your post. Mangle is not mandatory by any stretch of the imagination, in fact it can be a detriment to your DPS. Blood Letting is a far superior choice for a geared feral. The amount of ferocious bites and rip not falling off more than makes up for the 10% increase to mangle. Tested first hand.

I will admit I got my highest spike in DPS of 43k sustained with the mangle glyph, one time. I can steadily pull off 42k with Blood Letting almost every attempt. The choice is clear imo.



The opener is basically... Rake > Mangle > Roar > Mangle > TF > Mangle > Ravage > Rip. If done properly, you shift directly after the rip, should hear the line of "Protect them now, the last defenders of Azeroth" or some shit. You'll see the last defender debuff pop up, quickly shift back into cat, Barkskin (enjoy the 25 second duration, 30 second CD, your healers sure will) and pop Zerk. Your opener isn't as strong as it could be since you're doing the bear trick, but trust me on this. Your healers will thank you. There is zero reason for a feral to NOT get this buff. You don't like 25 out of 30 second Barkskins? Being able to soak 2 Hours, having Shield Wall for both of them. Oh and the best part? When you pop your glyphed 4p later in the fight, it's like 30 seconds long instead of 15. Yeah, completely worth getting the last defender buff.

Your guild must be under healing it to require dps ferals to use their 4 piece. You have to go into bear form for 15 seconds for it to benefit the fight, that's a huge dps loss on a fight designed to be a dps check. I'm not saying it's not viable, some guilds have stronger dps than healers, and some guilds have stronger healer than dps...

DPS feral 4 piece should be a very last resort cooldown, no raid should really ask you to use it.

There is a very good reason for ferals not to get the buff though, most guilds bloodlust on the pull, and everyone prepots. Yes you can get your rip up before thrall gives the buff out, but you're still wasting a good second or two sitting in bear form, and wasting 2 globals to get into bear then cat form during a lust and your prepot.


I'll try out bloodletting glyph next reset, my own logs would agree with what you are saying.

[Zheryn]

Your guild must be under healing it to require dps ferals to use their 4 piece. You have to go into bear form for 15 seconds for it to benefit the fight, that's a huge dps loss on a fight designed to be a dps check. I'm not saying it's not viable, some guilds have stronger dps than healers, and some guilds have stronger healer than dps...

DPS feral 4 piece should be a very last resort cooldown, no raid should really ask you to use it.

The +30% healing taken will keep raid alive long enough to do more damage than the feral would have done if he had been in cat form those 16 seconds tho...

Let's say you would do 35k sustained DPS in cat form and 10k in bear form (bigger difference than reality but just to prove a point), you'd lose 400k damage from being in bear form. For the other 17 DPSers to make up for that they have to do 23,5k damage each. Just to make it easy, let's say all other DPSers also do 35k sustained DPS, they would have to DPS for another 0,7 seconds.

If you don't believe that 30% increased raid healing for 40 seconds will keep the raid alive for more than 0.7 seconds... well, then you are wrong.

There is no reason at all to not use the 4t13 as feral DPS in a 25man raid, no matter how good or bad your DPS is, unless the only reason you wipe is because you are hitting the 6 minute enrage timer and never have any deaths before that.

[Deleted]

DPS feral 4 piece should be a very last resort cooldown, no raid should really ask you to use it.

There is a very good reason for ferals not to get the buff though, most guilds bloodlust on the pull, and everyone prepots. Yes you can get your rip up before thrall gives the buff out, but you're still wasting a good second or two sitting in bear form, and wasting 2 globals to get into bear then cat form during a lust and your prepot.

Every raid should utilize feral 4p, it's hands down one of the best raid cooldowns in the game right now. Zon'ozz, Yor'sahj, Ultraxion, Warmaster, Spine, Madness.. 6 fights out of 8 benefit greatly from you using it right. The fact that it comes from a dps player makes it even better, because it's more readily available. You can't stuff extra tanks in your raid, but you sure can have a cat in your raid.

I also don't agree with your reasoning to skip the buff on Ultraxion. There's no reason to skip it. None. The benefits seriously outweigh losing a few globals - even if it's time when you have BL and pot running. It is a dps race, sure. I just feel like the missing dps should be gotten elsewhere, not by giving up on feral 4p and all the damage reduction gained with the Last Defender.

[earthwormjim]

The +30% healing taken will keep raid alive long enough to do more damage than the feral would have done if he had been in cat form those 16 seconds tho...

Let's say you would do 35k sustained DPS in cat form and 10k in bear form (bigger difference than reality but just to prove a point), you'd lose 400k damage from being in bear form. For the other 17 DPSers to make up for that they have to do 23,5k damage each. Just to make it easy, let's say all other DPSers also do 35k sustained DPS, they would have to DPS for another 0,7 seconds.

If you don't believe that 30% increased raid healing for 40 seconds will keep the raid alive for more than 0.7 seconds... well, then you are wrong.

There is no reason at all to not use the 4t13 as feral DPS in a 25man raid, no matter how good or bad your DPS is, unless the only reason you wipe is because you are hitting the 6 minute enrage timer and never have any deaths before that.

I only agree if you are wiping from dieing early, most guilds wipe at enrage...

Most healers should, and are able to keep the raid alive all the way to enrage. They're not pulling their weight if they are not.

Every raid should utilize feral 4p, it's hands down one of the best raid cooldowns in the game right now. Zon'ozz, Yor'sahj, Ultraxion, Warmaster, Spine, Madness.. 6 fights out of 8 benefit greatly from you using it right. The fact that it comes from a dps player makes it even better, because it's more readily available. You can't stuff extra tanks in your raid, but you sure can have a cat in your raid.

My guild would have wiped if I had made use of my feral 4 piece on zon'ozz, yor'sahj and ultraxion for our first kills.

Zon'ozz we were about to hit enrage, yor'sahj we killed him just after he ate all the oozes, ultraxion we killed him as he was casting his enrage wipe.

It's a last resort to use a DPS'ers CD like feral 4 piece in this instance (something that requires big dps down time), there are some serious dps requirements for these fight. Spine is an exception probably (haven't done heroic yet), hagara too for the lightning phase its nice. If your guild is pushing those fights and meeting the dps requirements easily enough for you to be in bear for 15 seconds, I'd hope your healers were capable of keeping up on their own.

When healing on ultraxion gets hard, your healers should already be supplying the necessary raid cooldowns along with the tanks. It's only the last 45 seconds that are seriously tough.