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I just watched this Michio Kaku video that kazih linked in this thread and it piqued my curiousity. It suggests that we do not have free will because we consist of, to some extent, electrons. These electrons are in constant motion and this motion is not controlled by us. Hence, since this motion is out of our control, yet still controls us, we have no free will.
The fact that we do not control the sub atomic particles that we consist of, implies that we only appear to have control, when in actual fact our actions are due to, and directly controlled by, the random physical workings and reactions of the universe.
The universe appears to be in chaos when it is actually in order. This order of universal forces, energy, matter and particles can be interpreted as pre-determination, thereby meaning we have no free will. Even if the universe is in disarray, then we would still have no free will because the chaos would be the deciding factor, not our personal resolve, ideas, hopes, dreams or other grand ideas of controlling ourselves or the world around us. The universe and it's chain of events since the beginning controls you, not your 'free will'.
Recent Forum Posts
Thread: Do We Really Have A Free Will?
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2012-02-01, 02:01 AM #1Deleted
Do We Really Have A Free Will?
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2012-02-01, 02:07 AM #2Deleted
The video said we have free will.
— Paul Davies and John Gribbin, 'The Matter Myth', Chapter 1Then came our Quantum theory, which totally transformed our image of matter. The old assumption that the microscopic world of atoms was simply a scaled-down version of the everyday world had to be abandoned. Newton's deterministic machine was replaced by a shadowy and paradoxical conjunction of waves and particles, governed by the laws of chance, rather than the rigid rules of causality. An extension of the quantum theory goes beyond even this; it paints a picture in which solid matter dissolves away, to be replaced by weird excitations and vibrations of invisible field energy. Quantum physics undermines materialism because it reveals that matter has far less 'substance' than we might believe. But another development goes even further by demolishing Newton's image of matter as inert lumps. This development is the theory of chaos, which has recently gained widespread attention.Last edited by mmoc23f1c456d3; 2012-02-01 at 02:13 AM.
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2012-02-01, 02:12 AM #3DeletedHe said we have 'some kind of free will'. He did NOT say we have free will.
Originally Posted by Stickybuds
He said we have free will in the sense that no one can determine our future events. But we are also included in that no one.
If anything it proves we have no free will.Last edited by mmoc4695cacc2b; 2012-02-01 at 02:15 AM.
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2012-02-01, 02:14 AM #4DeletedHe said determinism is wrong. Originally Posted by SuperMechatronGamer
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2012-02-01, 02:15 AM #5The Insane
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We have free will just as much as people believe in faiths, try hard enough and you might be able to find it.
Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose
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2012-02-01, 02:16 AM #6Bloodsail Admiral
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free-ish
does that count?
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2012-02-01, 02:16 AM #7DeletedHe said that determinism with 100% accuracy is wrong. Originally Posted by Stickybuds
He never said that we as humans have control of anything.
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2012-02-01, 02:18 AM #8High Overlord
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Yeah, Stickybuds is correct, says we do have free will based on random electron movement.
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2012-02-01, 02:19 AM #9Mechagnome
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If we don't have free will, then there's nothing we can do about it.
If we do have free will, then we have nothing to worry about.
Not really an answer, but that's my thoughts.
just because one thing doesn't control us, doesn't mean we control us. Originally Posted by Stickybuds
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2012-02-01, 02:19 AM #10Titan
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Interesting fact known only by cognoscenti: Free will is an illusion. True story.
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2012-02-01, 02:20 AM #11DeletedHow is it free will when we don't have control of the random movement of those electrons? Originally Posted by Ghostie
Please explain.
Just because it is not predetermined doesn't mean we have any control.
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2012-02-01, 02:20 AM #12DeletedI used to think these things like you, but then I took a snowflake to my electron. Originally Posted by gruyaka
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2012-02-01, 02:21 AM #13Field Marshal
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I just hit myself in the face..
yes we do have free will
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2012-02-01, 02:24 AM #14DeletedNo one really understands quantum mechanics. But we do know that it destroys the premise(s) determinism is built on. Originally Posted by SuperMechatronGamer
OP said the video suggests we have no free will. Yet the video says we have some kind of free will.
You see?Last edited by mmoc23f1c456d3; 2012-02-01 at 02:27 AM.
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2012-02-01, 02:25 AM #15DeletedThis discussion has nothing to do with determinism. Originally Posted by Stickybuds
We have no free will, not because it is pre-determined, but because we have no control of the chaos. Stop trying to blur the lines.
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2012-02-01, 02:26 AM #16DeletedNope.Cause your personality pre determined that you would hit yourself in the face to prove that you have free will, before you even saw the video. Originally Posted by tinkerbell
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2012-02-01, 02:29 AM #17Deleted'Some kind of free will' was just his layman way of putting across his point to people of a non-science background. Originally Posted by Stickybuds
Just because no one else controls our fate does not mean WE control our fate.
We have no free will but no one has control over us either. There is no control, just chaos.
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2012-02-01, 02:32 AM #18Deleted Originally Posted by SuperMechatronGamer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_determinismHard determinism (or metaphysical determinism) is a view on free will which holds that that determinism is true, and that it is incompatible with free will, and thus that free will does not exist.
If your claim that we have no free will is not based on determinism, what is it based on?
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2012-02-01, 02:32 AM #19High Overlord
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He says that no one can determine your future events given your past history and goes on to say that basically the uncertainty principle is the random choices future you make, those random choices are free will.
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2012-02-01, 02:36 AM #20DeletedHard determinism is not a fact, as it states in that quote it is a 'view'. Originally Posted by Stickybuds
None of what you're saying proves we have a free will. We control nothing and this holds true with or without determinism.
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