U.S. Presidential race - Republican Discussion

[Catta]

How you vote varies by state. States can set up voting however they want so long as it complies with the Voting Rights Act.

Washington state has mail voting.

Thats not what i meant - am i wrong, or dont you have to register to vote in the US?

Here they just send you a letter when theres an election and you are over 18

[Laize]

IDK, the way the article is written isn't exactly clear. If it was fraud in the GOP primary then w/e I can't really give a shit.

It was rhetorical. Regarding Newt Gingrich in the primaries.

Point is it's still a preventative measure. I simply don't understand the intense opposition to having SOME form of photo ID required to vote.

Blah blah blah disenfranchised yadda yadda yadda....

I really have to wonder why none of these people have ANY documentation regarding where the hell they came from.

[Sunseeker]

It was rhetorical. Regarding Newt Gingrich in the primaries.

Point is it's still a preventative measure. I simply don't understand the intense opposition to having SOME form of photo ID required to vote.

Blah blah blah disenfranchised yadda yadda yadda....

I really have to wonder why none of these people have ANY documentation regarding where the hell they came from.

"I don't understand or care about these people's situations so they must be lying!"

That's how you sound u know.

[eriseis]

Hypothetical is hypothetical. Reliance on cheap labor is the problem, why do they need slaves in order to produce their product as they do? Perhaps that should concern us more.

I know you meant "slaves" as a hyperbole, but not all cheap foreign labor is "slave" labor. Furthermore, not all cheap labor is as flexible as that of China thanks to regulations and implementations of these regulations.

In Mexico minimum wage is 5 USD a day, but you can't have someone, say, work overtime more than thrice consecutively or you can't have that person work for longer than 3 hours during overtime and all workers have a right to a share of the company's revenue (what they call "reparto de utilidades"). From all the stories one hears about China, it wouldn't seem like the Chinese enjoy such rights.

---------- Post added 2012-07-07 at 09:15 PM ----------

"I don't understand or care about these people's situations so they must be lying!"

That's how you sound u know.

That's mostly what happens in these forums, particularly for the whole voter ID issue.

Which is fine, we all live in our bubbles. The problem is when we propose solutions that work if the person is part of our bubble instead of implementing a solution that works for the particular situation the person is in.

---------- Post added 2012-07-07 at 09:17 PM ----------

I've probably said this before, but I don't have a problem with voter ID, as long as it's consistent, easy to obtain, and doesn't cost anything for the voter to get. The problem is that the laws being passed are excessively harsh, such as requiring a state-issued voter ID that you must obtain through the DMV, then shutting down a bunch of DMV's. Or the Texas law that allows gun permits as suitable ID, but not student IDs.

Be consistent, make it easy to obtain even for the older/poor people this mostly affects, and you'll get no complaints from just about anybody. Problem is, no one is doing that.

I've posted against voter ID laws...but I wonder how things work out in Mexico. There you need to register to vote and your voting ID card pretty much works as your main ID for anything government/job related. You don't see anyone complaining there about the voter ID card. I wonder if there's a portion of Mexican citizens that is disenfranchised due to the law...though, well, even people who barely speak Spanish (and by this I mean Indians, not fraudulent foreigners) manage to get their ID cards.

[Laize]

Hypothetical is hypothetical. Reliance on cheap labor is the problem, why do they need slaves in order to produce their product as they do? Perhaps that should concern us more.

Well it's not that they need slaves to produce their product. They use the foreign labor to produce products at low cost that Americans can afford.

Bringing that labor home would raise the cost of the goods to levels the average American might be unwilling to pay.

Let me ask this. Even if we did bring the "cheap labor" home, who would win?

Companies like Nike who lose sales because their prices have to go up?

The foreign factory workers who lose their jobs?

The foreign country that loses its source of foreign capital inflow?

The only conceivable winners would be American minimum wage workers who stitch shoes instead of flip burgers for their minimum wage opportunity.

[Tastyfish]

When did that become an A. or B. option?

IF it was not an A or B option then people would catch on a lot faster that both parties hang out in the same clubhouse.

[eriseis]

Well it's not that they need slaves to produce their product. They use the foreign labor to produce products at low cost that Americans can afford.

Bringing that labor home would raise the cost of the goods to levels the average American might be unwilling to pay.

Let me ask this. Even if we did bring the "cheap labor" home, who would win?

Companies like Nike who lose sales because their prices have to go up?

The foreign factory workers who lose their jobs?

The foreign country that loses its source of foreign capital inflow?

The only conceivable winners would be American minimum wage workers who stitch shoes instead of flip burgers for their minimum wage opportunity.

We're losing more money trying to create a time machine to solve the issues of the past than focusing on what's affecting us now. There's no freaking way Europe should be making advances in science or business (e.g. the UK's new motion to provide tax breaks to investors of small businesses) while we're trying to stick to a job sector a first world nation shouldn't be too dependent upon.

[Kasierith]

We're losing more money trying to create a time machine to solve the issues of the past than focusing on what's affecting us now. There's no freaking way Europe should be making advances in science or business (e.g. the UK's new motion to provide tax breaks to investors of small businesses) while we're trying to stick to a job sector a first world nation shouldn't be too dependent upon.

Last I saw, the UK is doing very well right now, and have made quite a few very economically sound decisions in the recent past to get there.

[Laize]

We're losing more money trying to create a time machine to solve the issues of the past than focusing on what's affecting us now. There's no freaking way Europe should be making advances in science or business (e.g. the UK's new motion to provide tax breaks to investors of small businesses) while we're trying to stick to a job sector a first world nation shouldn't be too dependent upon.

Are you saying there's no room for manufacturing in America's economy? Nike should be a Vietnamese company rather than American?

[Sunseeker]

Well it's not that they need slaves to produce their product. They use the foreign labor to produce products at low cost that Americans can afford.

Right, that's why your average washer and dryer built in Mexico costs $400. Because even the tint 20" TV that costs $300 dollars is "affordable".

Bringing that labor home would raise the cost of the goods to levels the average American might be unwilling to pay.

It might also increase the average take-home of the American worker and thus make them more able to buy things!

Let me ask this. Even if we did bring the "cheap labor" home, who would win?

Companies like Nike who lose sales because their prices have to go up?

Oh, poor Nike, maybe if their average pair of shoes wasn't over a hundred dollars, I'd care.

The foreign factory workers who lose their jobs?

Who are now free to create their own businesses without oppressive international competition.

The foreign country that loses its source of foreign capital inflow?

Oh poor them. Maybe they can develop their own for a change. You realize the world is not realiant on American corporations kindess.

The only conceivable winners would be American minimum wage workers who stitch shoes instead of flip burgers for their minimum wage opportunity.

In this nice little hypothetical you've invented about bringing jobs home...which wasn't my point at all. My point was that TRUE free trade requires capital and market parity on a level that can't exist.

[Stuffs]

though I'm not sure how that would work, cause nothing is life is really free.

Taxes, but yeah.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. The cost for everything comes from somewhere.

Be it donations from private interests aiming to guide things, added taxes, or redirecting funds from preexisting projects.

[eriseis]

Are you saying there's no room for manufacturing in America's economy? Nike should be a Vietnamese company rather than American?

I don't know if I would venture to such extremes, at least for the purpose of not turning people to my point. But I feel we shouldn't zoom in too much into a field we no longer have a competitive edge on and move ahead into solutions that would be easier to implement.

---------- Post added 2012-07-07 at 09:35 PM ----------

How do they obtain it? I know we have the 24th amendment that says that poll taxes are unconstitutional. Requiring your citizens to purchase an ID to vote is a poll tax, which is why I would support a voter ID law as long as it remained free to obtain, though I'm not sure how that would work, cause nothing is life is really free.

It's free.

[Wells]

It was rhetorical. Regarding Newt Gingrich in the primaries.

Point is it's still a preventative measure. I simply don't understand the intense opposition to having SOME form of photo ID required to vote.

Blah blah blah disenfranchised yadda yadda yadda....

I really have to wonder why none of these people have ANY documentation regarding where the hell they came from.

It will prevent some people who can vote from voting.

There is no proof there is even a problem it is addressing.

Given the fact that it will be stopping people from exercising their right to vote the threshold for proof of importance is pretty fucking high.

Why they don't have photo ID is entirely irrelevant.

[Laize]

Right, that's why your average washer and dryer built in Mexico costs $400. Because even the tint 20" TV that costs $300 dollars is "affordable".

Lol... because materials and R&D aren't also factored in...

It might also increase the average take-home of the American worker and thus make them more able to buy things!

These are established minimum wage jobs. It's not increasing anyone's income but the grindingly poor.

Oh, poor Nike, maybe if their average pair of shoes wasn't over a hundred dollars, I'd care.

You're right, Nike makes such an absurd amount of profit that... oh wait... for every $100 pair of shoes, they keep $9.21. Even if they sold at cost, the shoes would still be $91.

Who are now free to create their own businesses without oppressive international competition.

With what capital? Hmm? Where are they going to get the equipment, personnel or training required to make a business?

Oh poor them. Maybe they can develop their own for a change. You realize the world is not realiant on American corporations kindess.

I see. I see. So ENTIRE foreign nations can bootstrap themselves through their own 150 year Industrial Revolution... but once they're there, they owe it to their citizens to provide a happy, feelgood socialist existence with all the trimmings? Assistance is only welcome once your nation is already rich?

In this nice little hypothetical you've invented about bringing jobs home...which wasn't my point at all. My point was that TRUE free trade requires capital and market parity on a level that can't exist.

Capital is being injected into these foreign nations every DAY.

Here are some charts.

https://www.google.com/finance?hl=en...ed=0CF8Q5QYwAA
http://www.google.com/finance?q=CNYUSD&hl=en
http://www.google.com/finance?q=MYRUSD&hl=en
http://www.google.com/finance?q=IDRUSD&hl=en

These are the currencies of 4 major outsourcing nations vs the US Dollar. In the last 10 years every one of them (Which the exception of Indonesia) has risen against the dollar.

Yes, there are other nations such as Vietnam and Pakistan which have fallen against the dollar (Though one can only wonder why a nation that was found to harbor Osama bin Laden would have its currency sold off), but there's many reasons a country's currency can go down. There's only one reason it would go up, and that's that it's becoming higher in demand due to more business being conducted there.

---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 01:53 AM ----------

It will prevent some people who can vote from voting.

There is no proof there is even a problem it is addressing.

Given the fact that it will be stopping people from exercising their right to vote the threshold for proof of importance is pretty fucking high.

Why they don't have photo ID is entirely irrelevant.

Well then why not address the difficulty of obtaining an ID, rather than the idea of obtaining an ID?

[KingHorse]

If it was fraud in the GOP primary then w/e I can't really give a shit.

So, you asked for evidence, you are provided evidence, and you "can't really give a shit"

Allow me to explain how reasonable people hold a discussion:

Person A: (something) is a problem, and we should take steps to prevent it!
Person B: (something) is a myth, you have no proof, nothing should be done.
Person A: *Proof*
Person B: Oh, I see, I didn't realize it was a problem. Thank you for the info, I'll look in to it more.

There is no proof there is even a problem it is addressing.

Yes there is. You just try to discount it because you don't want it to exist. You know that whole hand waving thing?

IMO provide free ID to anyone receiving any form of government assistance. There, no excuses.


Also, a usually impartial source says that Obama has increased the deficit more in his short term than Bush in eight years.

Here you go.

More news on Obama running lying campaign ads. Then trying to tell factcheck.org that they were lying, only to be told "lolUwrong"

http://factcheck.org/2012/07/factche...nt-is-all-wet/

[Wells]

So, you asked for evidence, you are provided evidence, and you "can't really give a shit"

Primary elections aren't what we're talking about. They're not elections for governmental positions and have as much bearing on this discussion as elections for chess club president.

You know this though, but you can't help but complain about me personally.

---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 02:49 AM ----------

Also: RE your Mark Knoller article

http://crooksandliars.com/blue-texan...-claims-debt-h

[oblivionx]

People that are in campaign mode and telling missruths every opportunity they get really can't be convinced of anything. They know exactly what they are doing and wish to do continue doing it.

^^

[Laize]

Primary elections aren't what we're talking about. They're not elections for governmental positions and have as much bearing on this discussion as elections for chess club president.

You know this though, but you can't help but complain about me personally.

---------- Post added 2012-07-08 at 02:49 AM ----------

Also: RE your Mark Knoller article

http://crooksandliars.com/blue-texan...-claims-debt-h

If that article is, indeed, the case then while the specifics of Mark Knoller's post were wrong, they weren't by much. That means that while Obama hasn't increased the debt by AS MUCH as Bush did in 2 terms, he's damn close to doing so. And while no other President is innocent either, Obama sure hasn't done anything to help his appearance as a waste monger when he refuses to rein in spending (Although I can't find any President going back to the 70s who has).

[Wells]

If that article is, indeed, the case then while the specifics of Mark Knoller's post were wrong, they weren't by much. That means that while Obama hasn't increased the debt by AS MUCH as Bush did in 2 terms, he's damn close to doing so. And while no other President is innocent either, Obama sure hasn't done anything to help his appearance as a waste monger when he refuses to rein in spending (Although I can't find any President going back to the 70s who has).

Yeah but the economy was stable for 95% of Bush's term, if not always fantastic. You can hardly hold the debt increase as a result of economic collapse against Obama.

[Linkedblade]

To fix the economy in the US we need to create products. We need inventors to actually invent something useful. Then we need our government to remove restrictions from companies so that producing things in our country is a better option than the outsources (which is in fact more restrictions removed).

That isn't that crazy is it?