U.S. Presidential race - Republican Discussion

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Speaking of pop vote polls being dumb. A recent poll I saw in Michigan had Romney winning by 8 points. A different poll done the same day had him losing by 18 (far more realistic since that is the only poll I have seen where Mitt is even close let alone wins). Polls are polls and aren't even relevant until the debates anyways.

You can get people to say the opposite thing to what they actually think by asking the right questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

Polls don't mean anything if you don't publish the answers to all questions asked.

[mistuhbull]

Gary Johnson.

Gary Johnson is vaguely electable though, his shit is substantially less crazy

[KingHorse]

what if he had said "by the way, there is no god, i did all of this myself"?

Were you asking because you think I'd have a problem with him saying that? If so, you'd be wrong. I'm fine with it for the same reasons I'm fine with him attributing his success to God: because he's not an authority figure nor is he in a government position of any kind, therefore any promotion of religious beliefs (or any adverse views on religion) are personal opinion, therefore I could give a fuck.

[starlord]

Were you asking because you think I'd have a problem with him saying that? If so, you'd be wrong. I'm fine with it for the same reasons I'm fine with him attributing his success to God: because he's not an authority figure nor is he in a government position of any kind, therefore any promotion of religious beliefs (or any adverse views on religion) are personal opinion, therefore I could give a fuck.

i think it would be a bit offensive. as would the reverse. which is why i dont think its a good example of "religious persecution". its touting your personal beliefs in an inappropriate setting imo.

[Wells]

Fairly interesting data on job growth and the minimum wage

[KingHorse]

i think it would be a bit offensive. as would the reverse. which is why i dont think its a good example of "religious persecution". its touting your personal beliefs in an inappropriate setting imo.

Italics: I disagree. If you are given time to speak in front of people because of an accomplishment of this sort, it's hard to justify telling you that your rather common and benign beliefs have to be excluded from what you say. He's not up there saying that God makes everything great, and that everyone would be smarter if they just believed harder. Not saying that the people who finished in the bottom of the class did so because they failed to say their prayers. He's attributing his own success to it. Let me ask you a question now: if he were to stand up there and thank Red Bull for getting him through all the cram sessions for tests, would that be somehow inappropriate? Because it's essentially the same thing. The guy is smart, that's why he's the Valedictorian. He wants to blame it on something else, fuck if I care.

Fairly interesting data on job growth and the minimum wage

Interesting indeed. I'd like to find out some info about this chart though:

http://massbudget.org/reports/images/836/image1.png

The discussion they have about these numbers focuses on the idea that higher minimum wages don't inhibit job growth. That is probably correct, but what this chart says to me is that each time the economy takes a dip, many people are (out of necessity) shifted from the "above minimum" bracket to the "minimum wage" bracket. Not surprising in an economic slump, but I want to know if they took that into account. From what I'm reading, it doesn't seem that they do.

[starlord]

Italics: I disagree. If you are given time to speak in front of people because of an accomplishment of this sort, it's hard to justify telling you that your rather common and benign beliefs have to be excluded from what you say. He's not up there saying that God makes everything great, and that everyone would be smarter if they just believed harder. Not saying that the people who finished in the bottom of the class did so because they failed to say their prayers. He's attributing his own success to it. Let me ask you a question now: if he were to stand up there and thank Red Bull for getting him through all the cram sessions for tests, would that be somehow inappropriate? Because it's essentially the same thing. The guy is smart, that's why he's the Valedictorian. He wants to blame it on something else, fuck if I care.

im not sure it really is the same thing. still, i think many instances of so-called persecution are meant to avoid giving offense to other religions/different beliefs. you cant really single out christians or religion in general since it applies to everyone.

[KingHorse]

im not sure it really is the same thing. still, i think many instances of so-called persecution are meant to avoid giving offense to other religions/different beliefs. you cant really single out christians or religion in general since it applies to everyone.

I had a long detailed post written out with statistics on what religions make up the majority of the US, and of graduating high school students. Then I realized that none of that matters. What matters is actually personality. There are many people who wouldn't share the views of this man saying that God did this or that for him. But the actual number of people who are offended by it is pretty small, and quite frankly, those people can go fuck themselves. Because they are offended by this single persons view on what he has done. And that's it.

Personally, the idea that someone can silence the majority of the world (most people in the world are religious in some way) simply because they might be offended by a view, without trying to force you to conduct yourself according to that view, is not an idea I'm willing to entertain. Thank God, thank Jebus, thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster, thank Cthulhu for all I care. As long as you're not telling me I have to worship them, thank whoever the shit you want, and fuck anyone who is offended by it. They're over sensitive and shouldn't be catered to.

[Grizzly Willy]

It's Cthulhu, thank you very much.

On topic: I don't have a problem with a person addressing some religious belief of theirs in a public speech, and I could even see how mentioning that you were successful without the aid of belief would be inspiring for people who share your ideas, but feel out of place.

The point of the message isn't to be antagonistic, it's to be uplifting. If you draw the wrong conclusion because you have a negative reaction to it then that is your issue. You have the right to be offended, but you do not have the right to operate upon that in an effort to suppress what is offending you.

I mean, the way I look at it is that you can't just tell a person to stop because you don't like it. I never told my peers in highschool to stop talking about anime just because it annoyed me. You just ignore like a mature individual. If somebody thanks God ,or references their roots I mean noodles in Pastafarianism, and you don't like it, I don't care. Go be offended somewhere else where you're not oppressing others.

[starlord]

It's Cthulhu, thank you very much.

On topic: I don't have a problem with a person addressing some religious belief of theirs in a public speech, and I could even see how mentioning that you were successful without the aid of belief would be inspiring for people who share your ideas, but feel out of place.

The point of the message isn't to be antagonistic, it's to be uplifting. If you draw the wrong conclusion because you have a negative reaction to it then that is your issue. You have the right to be offended, but you do not have the right to operate upon that in an effort to suppress what is offending you.

I mean, the way I look at it is that you can't just tell a person to stop because you don't like it. I never told my peers in highschool to stop talking about anime just because it annoyed me. You just ignore like a mature individual. If somebody thanks God ,or references their roots I mean noodles in Pastafarianism, and you don't like it, I don't care. Go be offended somewhere else where you're not oppressing others.

but its not one person "oppressing others", its a school deciding what is appropriate content. just like a workplace banning talk about politics or your personal views on racism. it is a highly sensitive topic.

[KingHorse]

but its not one person "oppressing others", its a school deciding what is appropriate content. just like a workplace banning talk about politics or your personal views on racism. it is a highly sensitive topic.

And what do they do once they've made the decision that God is inappropriate? They oppress people who want to mention God.

[starlord]

And what do they do once they've made the decision that God is inappropriate? They oppress people who want to mention God.

just like theyre oppressing people who want to talk about boobies. theyre free to discuss it in private or in other settings. no, i dont think that constitutes oppression.

such a loose interpretation of the term renders it almost meaningless.. not being able to do everything you want = oppression it seems.

[bergmann620]

but its not one person "oppressing others", its a school deciding what is appropriate content. just like a workplace banning talk about politics or your personal views on racism. it is a highly sensitive topic.

There's a huge difference between a school that you're legally required to attend, and a place of employment, in which you have essentially agreed to do what they think is appropriate in exchange for them paying you to be there.

Further, school is about teaching. If we shy away from the idea that there are many people out there with many different beliefs, and that we all need to be tolerant of those other beliefs, isn't that failing to educate on something that is very core to America?

Or are we to believe that, in a culture where kids regularly whip out "OMFG!" that they would be offended by God or 'Fucking'?

Or are high schools restricting speech to protect parents? That would be rich, right?

[eriseis]

There's a huge difference between a school that you're legally required to attend, and a place of employment, in which you have essentially agreed to do what they think is appropriate in exchange for them paying you to be there.

Further, school is about teaching. If we shy away from the idea that there are many people out there with many different beliefs, and that we all need to be tolerant of those other beliefs, isn't that failing to educate on something that is very core to America?

Or are we to believe that, in a culture where kids regularly whip out "OMFG!" that they would be offended by God or 'Fucking'?

Or are high schools restricting speech to protect parents? That would be rich, right?

Honestly, a school is not going to be a forum for profound religious discussion. Period.

No need to bring upon topics that will become controversial in that environment.

[Spectral]

Honestly, a school is not going to be a forum for profound religious discussion.

I'm of the mind that "profound religious discussion" is an oxymoron. As such, I concur with this statement on its face, but I'm not sure what setting it wouldn't apply to.

[bergmann620]

Honestly, a school is not going to be a forum for profound religious discussion. Period.

No need to bring upon topics that will become controversial in that environment.

No offense, as I value most of your contributions to this board, but that is maybe the most patently retarded thing I've read in this thread.

What else? No evolution? No political science classes? No art classes? No economics? No literature? No debate team, no student government, no theater department...

Nothing but the facts, ma'am!

[eriseis]

No offense, as I value most of your contributions to this board, but that is maybe the most patently retarded thing I've read in this thread.

What else? No evolution? No political science classes? No art classes? No economics? No literature? No debate team, no student government, no theater department...

Nothing but the facts, ma'am!

You could be the one being preposterous. I am sure you understand that there's few greater passions than one's religion. You seem to confuse eliminating possible conflict over one of the most concrete, serious and severe aspects of one's identity and even understanding of how the world works with eliminating conflicting topics overall. Don't change what I'm saying, I was carefully specific.

[Spectral]

You could be the one being preposterous. I am sure you understand that there's few greater passions than one's religion. You seem to confuse eliminating possible conflict over one of the most concrete, serious and severe aspects of one's identity and even understanding of how the world works with eliminating conflicting topics overall. Don't change what I'm saying, I was carefully specific.

The underbolditaliticized seems to me the whole problem, and exactly why there's effectively no such thing as "profound religious discussion". When someone labels something that they putatively "know" as part of their identity, it's pretty hard to imagine them having the capacity to be rational about it.

[bergmann620]

Oh yea, I wanted to dig this up the other day, because something bothered me when the whole "Texas wants to get rid of critical thinking!" story hit. As per the coverage,

Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

First off, no one seems to have covered this little tidbit:

However, the final wording of this item was evidently a 'mistake' according to Republican Party of Texas Communications Director Chris Elam who said, in an interview with talkingpointsmemo.com, that the plank should not have included the phrase 'critical thinking skills' and it was not the intent of the subcommittee to indicate that the RPT was opposed to critical thinking skills".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_...hinking_skills

Further, and this is what I got from the original quote that everyone went apeshit about: Texas' Republican party objects to the basic precepts of 'OBE.' We will all our own opinions about how students should be educated, but I don't think it's overly fair to criticize on a shallow, sensationalized misinterpretation. There are plenty of pro's and con's we can actually discuss when it comes to O.B.E. as a system as opposed to 'traditional' education, or other systems.

---------- Post added 2012-08-26 at 12:38 PM ----------

You could be the one being preposterous. I am sure you understand that there's few greater passions than one's religion. You seem to confuse eliminating possible conflict over one of the most concrete, serious and severe aspects of one's identity and even understanding of how the world works with eliminating conflicting topics overall. Don't change what I'm saying, I was carefully specific.

In school, but outside of the classroom, students will already be encountering each others' religions on a daily basis. It seems to me that encouraging ongoing ignorance of others is more likely to lead to bullying and persecution, where as being exposed to other cultures and religions (even outside of those currently represented by enrollment) is more likely to defuse such crises of identity.

Don't you see a value in educating people as to the difference between a Muslim and a Sikh? Or that very few Muslims are in the business of killing us? There is a way it can be done, that doesn't promote any specific religion, but that encourages tolerance and understanding. It seems preposterous that we could teach tolerance and acceptance of gay and alternate lifestyles, but religion would be too controversial. Or do you think we should pretend gay people don't exist, too?

[eriseis]

Valid point. I felt that we were going a whole new path and tried to read back on the thread. I honestly have no clue how this whole thing started, so Imma leave it before we go into tangent^7.