Heroic teir 13 - an objective analysis of 10vs25

[Deleted]

Opinion not fact.

AKA - Argument From Authority

---------- Post added 2012-02-04 at 10:09 AM ----------



Ad Hominem

Why would I give a shit when you havent done so either? May I remind you from the last page

OMFG....bangs head on desk...

No one is comparing LFR to HM except you three morons...

THE POINT WAS BLIZZARD DEVELOPERS

CHOSE

25 MAN OVER 10 MAN

FOR

LFR

BECAUSE (REGARDLESS OF MODE)

25 MAN IS MORE FORGIVING THAN 10 MAN

can you people seriously have this much downs?

...<bangs head>...<bangs head>...

...leaves forums because cannot handle this thread and the ignorance...

Let's face it you dont have anything intelligent to say or present anymore so you are playing the argumentation fallacy-card.

[Spike`]

this again

10 man is normally harder when some important class/debuff is not present

for example, do ultra or Hagara (with the stacked in the center tactic on Frost phase) without a Holy Pala, hey, just almost all of them without a Pala

PS: i always raided both sizes, i really know the differences on 10/25 on some bosses and the difference that makes when a class role is not present

so 25 is normally harder when the bosses makes the raid to spread out (depends of the room if its easiest or not)

in 10 man is when a class/role is missing, in T13 is clearly a Holy Pala, if you dont have a holy pala the fight difficulty raises alot, example of this is Ultra, with a Holy Pala you can solo it making the fight a total joke, can't been done with another type of healer

T13 is all about Healer stress, alot more damage comparing to T12 (yes, Pre-Nerf), 10 man suffers more when in certain boss you dont have a type of healer or tank or even a dps that bring some type of cooldown, especially raid cooldowns, in 25 you have all, in 10 man normally you dont

So it comes to this,
25 have all stuff. the only problem is the tactic, when fine tuned is walk in the park, on 25 i can say the responsibility is more on DPS, they have to really push it (ex: Ultra)

10 fights is only easier with the right boss comp, the responsibility is alot more on Healers (normally you only have 2) making less raid cooldowns, alot more raid damage and if a type a healer is not present is alot harder (in T13 is Holy Pala, in T11 was clearly a Druid, try doing alkir without one in phase 2 on T11 time, was not fun )

so stop with the epheen, mine is bigger than yours etc crap and know the facts and especially do the class role that is harder on current Tier, 10 = healer, 25 = dps

[yakebento]

When realm first Yogg-0 or realm first Algalon or even realm first LK happened what was the raid size that mattered in terms of meeting the criteria for the Feat of Strength? 25 man, i always will believe, despite what blizzard says their stand on the matter is, that 25man and 10man are different difficulties. Sure there may be SOME hardcore 10 man guilds that raid competitively but when you are going for world first or even realm first it is only 25mans that are compared.

This is something that even Paragon took the time to analyze. I remember back when 4.2 came out and Paragon got world first H Rag on 25man, they went back and did the same thing with a 10 player raid and were able to defeat the encounter with FAR less wipes. I am pretty sure their wipe count on 25man was something like 500+ and their wipes on 10m was something like 100+? I am just giving a ballpark estimate on the number of wipes but you get the idea, and if you dont believe me go use the search function and look for the exact thread members from Paragon made explaining the difference between 25m and 10m.

Sorry if what i said doesnt seem true to you but the fact remains that EVERY world first kill is since raiding has become competitive was done in 25m. I can only image the shitstorm that would arise the day that a future world first is done in 10m. Actually i remember when Stars defeated Al' Akir in 10m and Paragon basically said congrats guys, but you do not know the full meaning of the Al' Akir encounter until you do it on 25m.

Considering that they did the 10 man after weeks and weeks of learning the 25man and gearing up in 25 man, it's not surprising that they we're able to down the 10man significantly faster than the 25man. They already know the fight and have much more gear than a typical 10man group would have at the time.

[Deleted]

this again

10 man is normally harder when some important class/debuff is not present

for example, do ultra or Hagara (with the stacked in the center tactic on Frost phase) without a Holy Pala, hey, just almost all of them without a Pala

PS: i always raided both sizes, i really know the differences on 10/25 on some bosses and the difference that makes when a class role is not present

so 25 is normally harder when the bosses makes the raid to spread out (depends of the room if its easiest or not)

in 10 man is when a class/role is missing, in T13 is clearly a Holy Pala, if you dont have a holy pala the fight difficulty raises alot, example of this is Ultra, with a Holy Pala you can solo it making the fight a total joke, can't been done with another type of healer

T13 is all about Healer stress, alot more damage comparing to T12 (yes, Pre-Nerf), 10 man suffers more when in certain boss you dont have a type of healer or tank or even a dps that bring some type of cooldown, especially raid cooldowns, in 25 you have all, in 10 man normally you dont

So it comes to this,
25 have all stuff. the only problem is the tactic, when fine tuned is walk in the park, on 25 i can say the responsibility is more on DPS, they have to really push it (ex: Ultra)

10 fights is only easier with the right boss comp, the responsibility is alot more on Healers (normally you only have 2) making less raid cooldowns, alot more raid damage and if a type a healer is not present is alot harder (in T13 is Holy Pala, in T11 was clearly a Druid, try doing alkir without one in phase 2 on T11 time, was not fun )

so stop with the epheen, mine is bigger than yours etc crap and know the facts and especially do the class role that is harder on current Tier, 10 = healer, 25 = dps

Of course comps are optimal when measuring difficulty. Would be no point comparing optimal 25man comp to 10 druid 10man.

[Aphrel]

overall difficult seems pretty even tbh... dunno what ppl are arguing about, no numbers can prove any exact relation in difficulty, but most ppl gotta agree that this is by far the teir with "most even" difficulty between the 2 raidsizes.
And if you whould be among those 0.1% that compete for ranks (like me lol) then just look at 25 alone or 10 alone on wowprogress when you determine how good your guild are.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Of course comps are optimal when measuring difficulty. Would be no point comparing optimal 25man comp to 10 druid 10man.

There's no 'optimal' 10man setup for every boss. In 25-man, switching a few healer offspecs around to have the important stuff covered (like having an extra melee enh or an extra aoe dps like boomkin) is easy. In 10-man, having an optimal setup for all the bosses is close to impossible.

[Deleted]

There's no 'optimal' 10man setup for every boss. In 25-man, switching a few healer offspecs around to have the important stuff covered (like having an extra melee enh or an extra aoe dps like boomkin) is easy. In 10-man, having an optimal setup for all the bosses is close to impossible.

Alts arent exactly news anymore. Any serious 10man guild should have abouts +3 equally geared characters/player.

[Lucyinthesky]

Its pretty simple here, If you take a look on the guild Loot ftw, what they did in the start of this tier was pretty much a perfect example of how 10 CAN be easyer than 25, and in this tier it surely was.

[NanoHaxial]

Alts arent exactly news anymore. Any serious 10man guild should have abouts +3 equally geared characters/player.

Having three equally geared characters would require running three heroic raids, which is something the vast majority of guilds (and even many of the top ones) couldn't and/or wouldn't do. Hell, we don't even run a normal alt raid for our group.

[Torty]

afaik we had two deaths due to this one try and two more due to not dreaming on shrapnel and we wiped at 1%.. if those two would've used dream we would've made it rather easily with two deaths. (1 healer 1 dps afaik)

Yeah, you also had 3 or 4 weeks more of gear. That's a huge dps difference. We had deaths on our 3rd kill too.

right, go log on our priest or druid healer and try to solo heal it.

I'm pretty sure resto druid solo healing Ultraxion 10m heroic should be fairly easy. The required hps to solo heal it is not even cutting edge, any semi-proper druid can do it.

for example, do ultra or Hagara (with the stacked in the center tactic on Frost phase) without a Holy Pala, hey, just almost all of them without a Pala

We've done Hagara without a holy paladin (I used my holy priest) and we stack in the middle. I have an option to use either of them for our alt runs, but I mostly prefer to stay priest even with another healers being disc priest and resto/ele shaman. For example, I couldn't solo heal Morchok side on my paladin and easily did this as both holy and disc.
I think you overvalue paladins in 10m. They are insane in 25m, sure, but not so much in 10m. Holy priest's hymn made lightning phases on Hagara and black phases on Zon'ozz pretty trivial.

There's no 'optimal' 10man setup for every boss. In 25-man, switching a few healer offspecs around to have the important stuff covered (like having an extra melee enh or an extra aoe dps like boomkin) is easy. In 10-man, having an optimal setup for all the bosses is close to impossible.

In our alt 10m raid we have an option to go from heavy melee setup to heavy ranged setup. Just imagine this, we have people with a third competent char to raid. I'm sure serious 10m guilds can afford having at least two.

From my point of view, some of 10m encounters are just tuned insanely retarded compared to 25m. They need different mechanics (like Hagara lightning phase) or completely different approach. Zon'ozz with 5 melees and Zon'ozz with 5 ranged are 2 different bosses in 10m. Morchok with 4 healers and Morchok with 2 healers - same story. Of course, this is partly encounter design fail, they can always do better. I'm 100% confident Blizzard can make encounters that don't favour certain dps types or even dps specs. FL 10m bosses were pretty ok with that. DS 10m favour ranged dps far too much. Almost every single encounter becomes a lot easier once you get more range and dump melee.

[Deleted]

in 10 man is when a class/role is missing, in T13 is clearly a Holy Pala, if you dont have a holy pala the fight difficulty raises alot, example of this is Ultra, with a Holy Pala you can solo it making the fight a total joke, can't been done with another type of healer

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/7rj7q...?s=5404&e=5676
CLEARLY no other healer can solo heal ultraxion heroic... oh wait.

[LaplaceNoMa]

Right, so in order to be as competitive as 25mans, 10man players have to run 3 alt-raids with the same progression every week. In other words, spend 4x more time.

Okay.png

[theyanger]

Exodus had the servers up way before Europe (Silent) and Korea (In Extermis).

Both of those guilds roflstomped both 'real' 10-mans and those crippled pseudo-top 25man guilds.

They were world #1 because they were a day ahead of the EU. There were many 10m guilds 6/8 on the first week.

Paragon beat all of those 10 mans as well, last I checked they're european. To put it bluntly, the BEST 10 man guilds in the world, got crushed by two of the top 10 25 man guilds in the world when forced to raid 10 man.

Right, so in order to be as competitive as 25mans, 10man players have to run 3 alt-raids with the same progression every week. In other words, spend 4x more time.

Okay.png

Even 25 mans don't need to do that. I was in Exodus before Dragon Soul. We had 1 alt run, and we were awful on our alts and didn't really farm any worthwhile gear. The notion that everyone did what BL did and run 6 dragon souls the first week is absurd, especially when you're talking about guilds that had half their raiders suspended and had to run 10 man just to have enough bodies.

[Paskgotsheal]

Its pretty simple here, If you take a look on the guild Loot ftw, what they did in the start of this tier was pretty much a perfect example of how 10 CAN be easyer than 25, and in this tier it surely was.

uhhh how? BL/Vodka/almost all serious 25 man guilds beat them to the kill.

I don't understand this post at all.

---------- Post added 2012-02-04 at 09:52 PM ----------

Paragon beat all of those 10 mans as well, last I checked they're european. To put it bluntly, the BEST 10 man guilds in the world, got crushed by two of the top 10 25 man guilds in the world when forced to raid 10 man.

Paragon beat Silent by about 5 hours, i don't get what you're trying to say here.

---------- Post added 2012-02-04 at 09:53 PM ----------

And Angered, another 10 man guild was right behind them.

you're not makin much sense now kid

[theyanger]

uhhh how? BL/Vodka/almost all serious 25 man guilds beat them to the kill.

I don't understand this post at all.

---------- Post added 2012-02-04 at 09:52 PM ----------



Paragon beat Silent by about 5 hours, i don't get what you're trying to say here.

---------- Post added 2012-02-04 at 09:53 PM ----------

And Angered, another 10 man guild was right behind them.

you're not makin much sense now kid

How am I not making sense? does calling me kid make you feel cooler? They got beaten by the crippled 25 man guilds. How many hours isn't really relevant, but 5 hours is enough to be a notable amount. You're talking about the span of like a day and a quarter, 5 hours is almost 20% of that time.

[Malefic]

Why this thread is still open is beyond me. 10vs25 bashing. Don't do it.