How can there be no trinity?

[Agent Mercury]

Oh ok that video cleared it up. The trinity has been softened and lets you change your "dual-spec" in combat and without different gear. So it is still there just more flexible. A soft trinity.

[Ynna]

The tank/dps/healer roles are decided by the content and what it dictates.

But GW2 is designed from the ground up, to not need t any specific roles. So the content doesn't dictate any kind of role. Sure, some people will be focusing more on controlling mobs, or supporting allies, but that's not their role. At least not as assigned by the game.

And you can't tank a mob for more than 5 seconds (according to the devs), so it's not a case of switching between tanks, it's every player evading damage, throwing CC around, healing themselves up, putting barrier to hinder enemies, etc.

[Shinen]

Which I'm saying will eventually come down to assigning roles similar to the holy trinity.

Think of it like a lower level dungeon in wow...there isn't a clearly defined Tank, DPS, healer ect...you just zerg the crap out of it, until you get to content you can't. Everyone is a hybrid or might as well be until it is necessary to specialize. When the content dictates specialties then why would people fall into one of the roles? Yes it may shift during the fight, but that happens now, phase one do this, phase two run around with no tank, phase three back to tanking...

Maybe it won't be one person standing and taking the hits maybe it will be player one runs in takes a hit, casts shield, runs out, player two runs in takes a hit, rinse repeat...that's still a tank/offtank situation.

The tank/dps/healer roles are decided by the content and what it dictates.

Am I stupid or are you mixing GW2 mechanics with WoW aggro and combat mechanics? Part of the lack of trinity is not just the players, but the encounters themselves. What if just by running in you don't take the hit? What if you can't force him to attack you? How do you plan that? I mean, it's so different I find it incredibly stupid to compare.

[Deleted]

it's more like a low level dungeon.

Do no make the mistake and think it will be easy tho

[Herecius]

Which I'm saying will eventually come down to assigning roles similar to the holy trinity.

Think of it like a lower level dungeon in wow...there isn't a clearly defined Tank, DPS, healer ect...you just zerg the crap out of it, until you get to content you can't. Everyone is a hybrid or might as well be until it is necessary to specialize. When the content dictates specialties then why would people fall into one of the roles? Yes it may shift during the fight, but that happens now, phase one do this, phase two run around with no tank, phase three back to tanking...

Maybe it won't be one person standing and taking the hits maybe it will be player one runs in takes a hit, casts shield, runs out, player two runs in takes a hit, rinse repeat...that's still a tank/offtank situation.

The tank/dps/healer roles are decided by the content and what it dictates.

You're making the mistake of thinking combat mechanics will be like WoW.

They won't. Stop making that mistake. You even read my post where I explained how you no longer need a tank if mobs don't hit hard enough with melee swings alone to nearly global a non-tanky character, how are you still confused about this? Most of the deadly and dangerous damage in the game will come from abilities that are clearly telegraphed to the players, and GW2 won't have the same 'OMG-FOCUS ON ONE GUY ONLY FOREVER' aggro system that WoW does.

[Jaerin]

There aren't really any hybrid roles in WoW. There's hybrid classes that can respec to do one thing or another thing, but nobody can really do both at the same time with any measure of effectiveness.

Well, except feral tank druids with Vial of Shadows and Kiril, but that's because they're dirty cheaters.

You didn't play in Vanilla then. Priests did a ASSTON of damage with their wands back in the day. That's why it sucked so bad to be a druid healer...no wand to use when you were out of mana. Back then you were out of mana A LOT. I see some of the same makings of the original WoW in some of these concepts.

The system you guys are talking about is going to be VERY casual unfriendly or the content is going to be far too easy...

The reason I say that is how much forgiveness there is going to be in relying on others. I have a feeling a lot more harder-core players read these forums then the general casual. We're talking people that have established guilds, friends, and such. Those people will land just fine, but I'm talking the random pugs...those people are the bread and butter of games. Unless you provide a means of overcoming content for them you won't continue the same level of subs.

Vanilla was HARD for all but a small elite. A VERY small elite back then was on top of the content even months within the release of it. Now its focused at casuals...no doubt about that. I've played games like Vindictus and Rusty Hearts and such...what I find is that for the first half of the game you can get by with just mashing buttons. The second half requires a level of skill and persistence that most just don't have.

So excuse me if I'm skeptical that they will be able to do it differently this time around. That's why I'm coming and asking you folks to explain it to me. So thanks for the info.

[Valeron]

You're making the mistake of thinking combat mechanics will be like WoW.

They won't. Stop making that mistake. You even read my post where I explained how you no longer need a tank if mobs don't hit hard enough with melee swings alone to nearly global a non-tanky character, how are you still confused about this?

This really. I'd say play something else like Vindictus to get an idea of how a non trinity based game can work.

[Taurous]

Watch this:

@6:34

I miss volley

[Herecius]

You didn't play in Vanilla then. Priests did a ASSTON of damage with their wands back in the day. That's why it sucked so bad to be a druid healer...no wand to use when you were out of mana. Back then you were out of mana A LOT. I see some of the same makings of the original WoW in some of these concepts.

Doing tons of damage in wand spec isn't being a hybrid, it's having crappy game design. Just sayin'. I love WoW and am on the frontlines for Blizz fanboyism here, but they made some really stupid design decisions early on that have thankfully been remedied.

[Malthurius]

Oh ok that video cleared it up. The trinity has been softened and lets you change your "dual-spec" in combat and without different gear. So it is still there just more flexible. A soft trinity.

I guess you could consider it that way. But personally that feels like bending the definition of 'trinity' to be so broad near the point of being pointless.

You don't have to change anything about your build in order to survive, deal damage, and control. I 'guess' the trinity is still there, but it's not a planned thing, it's reactionary. Think of it like Zelda. Zelda doesn't have a trinity, but you can raise your shield to defend, attack with your sword for damage, and use potions for healing. You did all that only swapping your weapons and tool in the midst of combat. Now if Zelda was a 5 player dungeon and everyone still had those same options would you call that a trinity system?

[zito]

So excuse me if I'm skeptical that they will be able to do it differently this time around. That's why I'm coming and asking you folks to explain it to me. So thanks for the info.

Just because someone has a defensive move (everyone) that allows them to take a hit for a few seconds doesn't make them a tank for that period of time. It just makes them the player getting hit for a few seconds.

That is how everything is,you are responsible for yourself with the assistance of others. It is probably just like wow mechanic except you aren't carried by the healers and the content is more interactive.

[Herecius]

I guess you could consider it that way. But personally that feels like bending the definition of 'trinity' to be so broad near the point of being pointless.

You don't have to change anything about your build in order to survive, deal damage, and control. I 'guess' the trinity is still there, but it's not a planned thing, it's reactionary. Think of it like Zelda. Zelda doesn't have a trinity, but you can raise your shield to defend, attack with your sword for damage, and use potions for healing. You did all that only swapping your weapons and tool in the midst of combat. Now if Zelda was a 5 player dungeon and everyone still had those same options would you call that a trinity system?

I absolutely agree with this. It's better to just accept the fact that a trinity is just one type of game design out of many, rather than trying to hamfist it into other things, or twist the definition until it fits somehow. We want MORE variety in game design, not less, after all.

[Jaerin]

Am I stupid or are you mixing GW2 mechanics with WoW aggro and combat mechanics? Part of the lack of trinity is not just the players, but the encounters themselves. What if just by running in you don't take the hit? What if you can't force him to attack you? How do you plan that? I mean, it's so different I find it incredibly stupid to compare.

But someone is standing their taking hits. Someone will take the next hit...you HAVE to be able to control it some how OR it doesn't matter who he hits and everyone has to be able to take it. The 2nd situation seems to be the prevailing idea of how it will work, but in that type of system how do you plan on determining who's skilled and who is not. Why does it matter what class or anything that I am. You've just undefined the the very reason of being any particular class.

There is a significant set of people who don't give a rats ass about what class they play, they just want to be the absolute BEST. To me this might breed an even worse environment of the class of the month syndrome that some games get.

See this as above...this post isn't about disagreeing its about providing a different perspective on how I see it and then adding an additional possible outcome of the system by which other games have had the same problem.

[Valeron]

I'd also like to think that GW2's system has equal dependency. In trinity based games, the tank and healer basically are the most important part of a group makeup. The rest of the team can slack but not those two. So in GW2 the responsibility is equally divided.

[zito]

There is a significant set of people who don't give a rats ass about what class they play, they just want to be the absolute BEST. To me this might breed an even worse environment of the class of the month syndrome that some games get.

I have to disagree at this class of the month. You have 8 classes that have been tuned, played, tweaked, balanced for several years in development compared to WoW when they add a new skill they test it for a week and deal with it later.

Since stats have the same ratio it isn't possible to have one class outshabam everything even in future content.

Of course there are going to be times where shit I just got raped by a mesmer, but that's probably because of a counter, which the mesmer has and so on. It's all situational.

[Deleted]

Do no make the mistake and think it will be easy tho

Of course not

[Herecius]

But someone is standing their taking hits. Someone will take the next hit...you HAVE to be able to control it some how OR it doesn't matter who he hits and everyone has to be able to take it. The 2nd situation seems to be the prevailing idea of how it will work, but in that type of system how do you plan on determining who's skilled and who is not. Why does it matter what class or anything that I am. You've just undefined the the very reason of being any particular class.

It means you get to play whatever job/role sounds the most enjoyable and most powerful to you. It doesn't matter who the mob hits because everybody can take it, or it's an ability that everybody has a way of avoiding somehow.

Look at it this way; in WoW, when people who don't know you address you, they probably address you as 'hey feral.' They might not even give you that dignity, you might just get 'hey druid' or 'hey tank.' In GW2, your character's identity is forged by how you play it, not by its arbitrary role description.

Also, you're absolutely right about the whole 'class of the month' syndrome. GW2 is very specifically designed to allow you to do what you want and change if you feel like it.

[Deleted]

Of course not

Wasent directed at you just felt it had to be said in general so people dont think it will be easy just becouse the model maybe can be compared to a low lvl dungeon in wow were everyone jumps around doing a little of everything

[Odeezee]

too many people in this thread really do not understand what GW2 is actually doing, even those trying to correct the OP.

1. there is no hard trinity or "soft" trinity in GW2 as DPS, support and control are not roles in GW2 they are just actions you carry out and everyone needs to perform them at different times during an encounter.
2. you cannot make a pure build that just does DPS, support, or controls as many skills do more than one of these at a time.
3. in GW2 it is better to avoid damage altogether than to soak it or heal it so dodging, combat and spacial awareness are key to success.

[Ashgar]

again... there is NO THREAT in guild wars 2... mobs/boss attack more i guess on random choice or event (who is doing the most damage, who seems to be contributing most to group, who seems to be doing the most avoidance)

I wish I knew where the link was but there is one with Colin at a convention where he explained it. Threat is purely based on radius to the mob. Whoever is closest will have the immediate aggro of the npc. It will be a system of people taking turns holding threat by being the closest person to the boss/npc. It will require a great deal more coordination, spacing and skill with dodging and managing cooldowns.

In a boss fight you may have a Warrior initiate with a weapon and shield. You'll dodge a few attacks keeping yourself closer than everyone else. Use a cooldown like Shield Wall to reduce the damage, time your heal and get any damage reduction or heals from your party pending on the group composition you have. Then, once you're out of tricks another party member will come up and do the same as you.

Everyone will be required to do multiple roles within the group. As far as your value to the group depends on your actual skill and experience working as a group. It matters a great deal, especially in the heroic dungeons that you have a system in place. It may take awhile to get used to but will bode very well for the people who play together regularly and work out cross class combos.