Can animals act outside of instinct?

[capitano666]

What do you mean by "animals"? Many primates are quite similar to humans (who are also animals as Feranor pointed out).

[Arcadem]

I'm not an animal.

[Gufkys]

Actually there is no strict definition of "instinct", but in biology there is a distinction between instinct and learned behaviors. Higher animals like dogs not only capable of learned behavior, but base most of their decisions on it. An action like follow command "sit" to get some food is not a instinct, but learned bevaior.

This was actually a large part of the discussion as well. He told me that his own dog hated him for no reason, initially, but then later told me that when he first got the dog, he psychologically tormented it. His argument for me being wrong was that occasionally the dog would approach him peacefully and "cuddle."

My initial response was to think that the dog didn't view him as a threat all the time, but was more sensitive to "threats" coming from him, due to his experience with tthat person.

[Charo]

They're giving hunters the ability to choose a pet talent tree per pet, so a cat can be tenacity, and a bear can be ferocity. So yes, in Mist of Pandera.

[Gufkys]

What do you mean by "animals"? Many primates are quite similar to humans (who are also animals as Feranor pointed out).

I should clarify that I'm talking about creatures with no higher thought-process.
I think this includes dolphins, most primates, and some bird species.

[Arcadem]

I define instinct fairly specifically.
When faced with a set of decisions in a situation, instinct is the decision that your body naturally defers to.

If a human sees another human with a knife approaching, instinct tells us to run away, or prepare to defend.
Humans can override this instinct and do something that is counteractive to survival... such as dancing, sitting down, or singing a song.
Dogs can't do this (imo) because they lack the intelligence and higher thought-process to judge a situation in any other way than in light of survival.

Humans cannot overwrite their survival instinct, That's why we can suffocate ourselves by tieing a plastic back on their heads, you need medication or else you will break free.

[Archangel Tyrael]

Of course they can.

[Rednaxella]

This is a very interesting question, and I thought about it a lot after I read this.

My idea is, yes, they all act on instinct. Even us, we are not free from the bonds of nature yet, nor are we likely too. While all living organisms can have their imperfections, they still have many basic functions that are required for life, that is instinct to them. Everything we do is for what we think is best for survival, and when someone does something that goes against their own survival or a survival of a living thing is considered insanity. The truth being, no matter how self-centered someone may be, or how much they want to give their life, they want to do it for the good of something living, which is just their instinct, the survival of their species. I haven't really looked that much into it, but I am almost 100% sure that instinct cannot be broken. Sorry for those out there that don't accept this because I don't have anything to back it up, but there isn't much known about it yet, and the brain is still one of the biggest mysteries we have.

[Deleted]

I define instinct fairly specifically.
When faced with a set of decisions in a situation, instinct is the decision that your body naturally defers to.

If a human sees another human with a knife approaching, instinct tells us to run away, or prepare to defend.
Humans can override this instinct and do something that is counteractive to survival... such as dancing, sitting down, or singing a song.
Dogs can't do this (imo) because they lack the intelligence and higher thought-process to judge a situation in any other way than in light of survival.

A dog is approaching a cat fast. So you say cat will always run for its life? Thats exactly not the case. Many cats live and play with dogs, they don't run from dog and don't interpret its actions as aggressive, in this case.
The reason you don't run if you mother is approaching you with a knife: you have learned she won't harm you, but has other intentions. Exactly same for an animal if it learns human or other animal have no intention to harm it, they won't running.

The problem is: the word "instinct" is one of many extremly frequently wrong used scientific words in common language.

[Rioo]

It really depends on how you define instinct. When I'm visiting my parents during xmas etc. my old cat likes to sleep on my clothes I've worn during the day. Not every night, but most. He rotates his sleeping places a lot, some days/weeks it's one spot, others somewhere else.

For me that tells us he's not acting on instinct when he chooses where to sleep, because then it would either be the closest sleeping spot or the same spot always.

[Mowgles]

In my experience with dog training, I would say no. Dogs can learn so many different behaviors, but everything is taught through either positive or negative reinforcement. Positive reinforcement tells the dog "if you do this, you might get food, and food is good!", while negative reinforcement tells a dog "If you do this, you get hurt, and hurt is bad!". All decision making is based on a memory of what equates to survivability (food, water, shelter, safety). As much as we love to tell ourselves that "my dog loves me!", it really means that your dog loves that you are an ultimate provider of resources.

[Stir]

It is impossible to say without a clear, all-encompassing definition of what counts as 'instinct.'
Our ability to override our first impulses could well be defined as an instinctive trait without this clear distinction. It can also be argued that 'instict' doesn't exist at all.

Me, I am of the opinion that only animals that lack a brain act solely on instinct, and I define instinct as the set 'programming' of an organism. This means that any creature with the ability to think has the capacity to override instincts. Which means that any animal with a brain or highly developed nervous system can act regardless of instinct.

Instinct in mammals, birds, fish, reptiles and others are reduced to flinching or sudden emotional responses like fear, rage and lust. Is it possible to completely ignore these? No; I don't think it is. But we can choose to not indulge in them, especially when it is most important not to: When our survival is at stake.

So no; I cannot answer your poll. It is too simplistic, and any result from the poll will not be able to actually portray a ruling opinion because many people who would otherwise agree with one another would answer the poll differently depending on how they looked the phrasing.

[Deleted]

It's hard to say. Sometimes, watching orcas play with a captured and wounded seal, tossing it into the air and whacking it with their tails, for quite some time before devouring it, or cats maiming and pouncing around an insect or rodent for several minutes, before killing it, quite probably not bothering to it it either, you have to wonder, just how much of that predatory playing can be useful on an instinctive level?

Is it a sadistic thrill for the hunt which is simply pleasurable in and of itself or some sort of training exercise which helps them learn from each capture/kill? Sometimes it feels like an animals will, particularly that of mammalian predators, extends beyond the level of pure instinct.

[Rukentuts]

My dog likes playing with mice. She never kills them, she just throws them around.

My dog will choose to sit on the heat vent by the window so she can be warm and look outside.

[Deleted]

I think it's different from wild animals to those who share our homes and have done so for the past 10.000+ years. Cats and dogs for example, their primary way of communication is smell and body language, this ofcourse does not work to communicate with us on a satisfactory level so they make crazy sounds and put on a small broadway show to get our attention when it's needed. Instincts doesn't tell them what type of communication works best!

Also if i forget to give my cat food before heading to work she will knock the window open and jump out. She then walks over to our neighbor where she gets something to eat. Also not instinctual behaviour!

Ever had a depressed cat or dog that refuses to eat or play and avoids contact? Let's talk abit about depression!
Depression is a mental illness which is caused by sadness. Sadness is a very complex feeling that requires you to be able to understand the concept of loss, how you used to have something that you simply don't have anymore, or that you imagined to have something that you never got etc. Animals can be depressed for a very long time and if they don't manage to pull themselfs out of it, they die/ commit suicide. This goes against every single survival instinct they posses, yet it happens all the time.

So yes, i believe they can act outside instinct and they do it everyday

[Akutare]

I define instinct fairly specifically.
When faced with a set of decisions in a situation, instinct is the decision that your body naturally defers to.

If a human sees another human with a knife approaching, instinct tells us to run away, or prepare to defend.
Humans can override this instinct and do something that is counteractive to survival... such as dancing, sitting down, or singing a song.
Dogs can't do this (imo) because they lack the intelligence and higher thought-process to judge a situation in any other way than in light of survival.

Realistically though, I don't think a human would decide to dance for his attacker unless they were hoping to cause confusion as a form of defense, which I think would still fall under a variant of the "fight" response as cooperating is probably a variant of flight. Either way, I would need you to show some supporting evidence that humans would really respond to this situation like a Tim and Eric sketch, because it doesn't seem very believable. I don't think the opposite of instinct is behaving senselessly.

Humans are animals though. Instincts are the preprogramed part of behavior, but lots of animals, particularly mammals have tons of learned behaviors they have to be trained on and they are more likely to act on those than instinct alone. Other mammals clearly use their knowledge and training to fulfill their basic needs. Are animals ever motivated by things besides their basic needs? That is a different question not connected to the established definition of instinct.

[Gufkys]

Realistically though, I don't think a human would decide to dance for his attacker unless they were hoping to cause confusion as a form of defense, which I think would still fall under a variant of the "fight" response as cooperating is probably a variant of flight. Either way, I would need you to show some supporting evidence that humans would really respond to this situation like a Tim and Eric sketch, because it doesn't seem very believable. I don't think the opposite of instinct is behaving senselessly.

Humans are animals though. Instincts are the preprogramed part of behavior, but lots of animals, particularly mammals have tons of learned behaviors they have to be trained on and they are more likely to act on those than instinct alone. Other mammals clearly use their knowledge and training to fulfill their basic needs. Are animals ever motivated by things besides their basic needs? That is a different question not connected to the established definition of instinct.

So, this example applies to your post and RMN's.
Say that ten out of ten times, when a fist comes at your face, you flinch, but nonetheless it strikes you and causes pain.
Now say your friend says... I bet you'll flinch if I punch you!
Can you as a human defy your instinct to flinch? Even if he actually DOES hit you, if you can go without flinching you have defied your instinct to flinch by adapting to a novel set of circumstances.

Now, say a dog... ten times out of ten, is swung at and hit by one specific implement, causing him to learn to fear that object. Now you say to your dog... "Good boy!" and reach out to "scratch" him with that same implement. Despite the fact that these are novel circumstances and that you had zero intent to strike him, he will still flinch because he has acquired the instinct to shy away from said object through experience.

This being said... a human would not *realistically* do so. But a human can, with no intention of flight or fight, act outside of instinct for any reason. With the flinching scenario, the reason is pride, or respect. Dogs understand alpha/beta pack mentalities, but respect and other similar emotions are, as far as I can tell, out of their grasp.

[Grummgug]

When my dog plays with my bird he is very carefull. He even tries to pet the bird by lifting his foot and gently tries to touch the bird. Really funny to watch. Some more revolting behaviour from my dog is when he licks up the birds doodoo's. He knows he gets punished when he shits in the house so he possibly tries to save the bird from the same fate. The bird is not so kind with the dog though... So yh I'm sure animals can act outside their little instinct box.

What your describing there is an instinct to protect family members or those with which it has forged a close bond. Humans do this a lot too, but sometimes they can override their instinct and respect the law by turning in family members to the authorities.

---------- Post added 2012-02-13 at 07:06 PM ----------

What some call the limbic system of the brain could help define this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system

The limbic system controls the "fight, flight, or mate" instincts. Its also the pleasure center. In a famous experiment, rats had rods planted in their limbic system, connected to a lever they could push. If they pushed it, they would feel pleasure. The rats would just sit there and push the lever constantly without eating, drinking, or sleeping, until they died from exhaustion.

That's another example of the lack of long-term planning animals have compared to humans. Humans wouldn't do that, because they see the big picture.

[Treno]

Have you never tried to hold a house cat? You're always either going to get a "couldn't care less" or a "f*** off" based solely on their mood not their instinct.

To clarify, those extremes are very general and do not incorporate all cats. I've had more than one that has loved to be carried around by me happily. Additionally, I have a lady cat who, while she tells me she doesn't like being picked up, trusts me to do so even though her body language says "I don't like this but you probably have your reason." So she cares that I'm doing it, but trusts me as her owner to handle her well.

Instinct in it's most basic definition is an innate coercion to a certain action. That is, something beyond cognitive thinking. These play a great role in all animals lives, even ours. However, there is a layer above that, a layer of learned actions.

Many animals, like cats and dogs, are sentient. That means they are able to have experiences subjective to them. These experiences build on their personality and shape who they are.

[apepi]

http://psychology.about.com/od/psych...motivation.htm

I am just learning this stuff in psychology, while this talks about humans it can also be used for other animals. Lets take a bird for example, they are known to hoard, they seek food because they are hungry but because they know that they will be hungry and will use this food when it is time.