1. #1
    High Overlord
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    Feels like every single ignite is munching .. - Help my fire DPS please!

    I'm really struggling to figure out why my damage is lower than it should be on EVERY single combustion. I use the most recent combustion helper as well as MyBigIgnite to track Ignite size. I'll combust at say, 18,000 ignite for example, yet when CombustionHelper comes back with the report mid-fight, it shows ~200,000 damage done over 12 ticks at maybe 12,000 damage per tick. So I'm really only getting 12,000 for the ignite yet combustionhelper and mybigignite are both showing 18,000.

    I tend to use my pyroblast procs instantly, as quickly as I can. Is this wrong? Should I be waiting a second and using an extra fireball cast before I use the proc?

    I just had an instant where I had a 22,000 ignite (text in green) yet in the report, only got an 11,000 ignite for the Combustion, and yeah, the combustion was cast before Ignite fell off.

    Any idea's on what is happening?

    Here is a link to a log. My general rule is to only combust on 18,000 or more for ignite, but every time it shows 18,000, I'm only getting ~11,000 or so.

    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-2b...?s=6108&e=6421
    Armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Hartlin/simple

    Thanks in advance for your help,
    Hartlin

  2. #2
    As far as I know, Combustion Helper's Ignite tracker is wildly unreliable. I use Mik's Scrolling Battle Text to just track big crits. So when I'm ready to Combust I can see exactly what my current ignite's Fireball/Pyroblast crit is, and can go from there.

  3. #3
    I never really pay attention to how much my combustion is hitting for from my recount report.

    Usually, with all 3 dots up, with an ignite values around 20000, and under normal boss conditions. If i hit combustion, i point my mouse cursor to see the boss combustion debuff...it will usually show something like "9000-12000 / tick", i am not sure how to intrepret that actually, hopefully someone can.

    thx

  4. #4
    You realize ignite ticks every 2 seconds so the 18k ignite is only 9k dps. Combustion deals damage per time equal to the sum of the dps (not the sum of the damage) of the combined dots.

    This can be verified by using combustion after a Living Bomb with 1 second left and another with 10 seconds left. No matter the duration left on the Living Bomb, the combustion will be valued the same.

  5. #5
    Dont forget that ignites ticks every 2 seconds, and combustion calculates its dmg based on the DPS of your dots.

    Hence a 20k ignite will contribute around 10-12k dmg per tick to your combustion, depending on your mastery.

  6. #6
    Dont use combustion helper or MyBigIgnite addons. Use MSBT and put dot throttle threshold to 0 so every ignite tick will be displayed.
    Also i'm not saying that either of these 2 addons are bad, but they can be really misleading.
    Last edited by Makarena; 2012-02-14 at 10:35 AM.

  7. #7
    Ehe quite a bit misleading info here.

    1_ combustionhelper is as reliable as msbt or mybigignite, they all rely on combat log events to give info about the ignite damage done. The exception being for combustionhelpere with ignite prediction enabled is that it try to estimate ignite damage before it actually happen, if you don't like this or only want to use old info from combat log, just disable it but you'll risk losing some ignite damage while waiting for info to pop.

    2_ combustion dps isn't equal to ignite dps/2. The exact formula isn't known yet but you'll have to take in account the addition of lb and pyro dot plus the effect of possible sp/int procs happening before you cast your combustion.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by angayelle View Post
    effect of possible sp/int procs happening before you cast your combustion.
    Pretty sure int/sp procs happening before you cast combustion doesn't make a difference to the dmg of the individual ticks, but only to the initial base dmg. Its only when you utilize the procs to refresh your current dots that increases the damage of combustion. Do correct me if i'm wrong.

    Rough example:

    Scenario 1:
    LB ticking for 6k/3 secs (2k dps)
    Pyro dot ticking for 3k/3 secs (1k dps)
    Ignite ticking for 20k/2 secs (~10k dps)
    <int/sp procs happen>
    Combustion dmg = ~13k/tick

    Scenario 2:
    LB ticking for 6k/3 secs (2k dps)
    Pyro dot ticking for 3k/3 secs (1k dps)
    Ignite ticking for 20k/2 secs (~10k dps)
    <int/sp procs happen>
    LB clipped, now ticking for 9k/3 sec (3k dps)
    Combustion dmg = ~14k/tick

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hystify View Post
    Pretty sure int/sp procs happening before you cast combustion doesn't make a difference to the dmg of the individual ticks, but only to the initial base dmg. Its only when you utilize the procs to refresh your current dots that increases the damage of combustion. Do correct me if i'm wrong.
    I believe that's correct, the only thing that will affect Combustion damage is a Haste proc if said proc gives you enough haste to go over any plateau that grants any extra ticks.

  10. #10
    Totally wrong both, sorry.

    1- LB/pyro dot dps doesn't matter at all, recast them to get bigger is totally useless, only the presence of it is checked.

    2- sp/int affect combustion dot size and front damage.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Dkitty's Avatar
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    I use MyBigIgnite (MBI) to track my ignite damage. Contrary to what other people have said, it's extremely accurate for tracking ignite damage GIVEN that you understand how ignite works and take certain factors into account:

    1. MBI tracks the damage of the LAST TICK of ignite. The means that if you crit after you saw the ignite number you are content with, the ignite pool will have changed and therefore the combustion will tick lower than expected.

    2. MBI only tracks the last tick of ignite, if you get 3 crits and you still see 0 for your ignite tracker, you have a really big ignite pool. This is a great time to combust.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by angayelle View Post
    Totally wrong both, sorry.

    1- LB/pyro dot dps doesn't matter at all, recast them to get bigger is totally useless, only the presence of it is checked.

    2- sp/int affect combustion dot size and front damage.
    Do you have logs to back up your claim?

    If not, I actually feel that your logic/theory is pretty flawed.

    I'm sure combustion works the same way for all dots, and not either/or.

    What you're saying now is that the damage of the ticks from pyro/LB doesn't matter at all for combustion's damage, the only thing that matters is their presence on the target.

    So if you would kindly answer my following question:
    If all that matters is the presence of the dot on the target, why do fire mages have to fish for huge ignites before using combustion?

    If your logic is right, then the best time to use combustion should be when all your procs are up and that you have all the relevant dots on the target (Pyro/LB/Ignite), and also it doesn't matter what their current dps on the target is. Heck, you might even want to cast a glyphed FFB just for shits and giggles since its an extra dot!
    Last edited by Hystify; 2012-02-16 at 06:02 AM.

  13. #13
    I guess you didn't notice that i said that LB/Pyro dot dps doesn't matter, i haven't say anything about ignite, which size does matter.

    http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t110326-...2/#post1870591

    Now don't take my word or what's been accepted as a fact on EJ and go try by yourself on a dummy.

    If you wanna up your combustion size with ffb dot, go for it but which glyph are you removing to make room for the ffb glyph ? Pyro glyph ? Sure, i'd trade 5% crit on my pyro for a dot i'll use like 10 time in a fight (counting eventual refresh for not getting a proper ignite)

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-16 at 10:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dkitty View Post
    I use MyBigIgnite (MBI) to track my ignite damage. Contrary to what other people have said, it's extremely accurate for tracking ignite damage GIVEN that you understand how ignite works and take certain factors into account:

    1. MBI tracks the damage of the LAST TICK of ignite. The means that if you crit after you saw the ignite number you are content with, the ignite pool will have changed and therefore the combustion will tick lower than expected.

    2. MBI only tracks the last tick of ignite, if you get 3 crits and you still see 0 for your ignite tracker, you have a really big ignite pool. This is a great time to combust.
    Well there some things to correct.

    1- if your crit happen after the second tick of ignite from previous criticals, yes your combustion will be lower as your ignite bank will be empty but if your crit happen before the second ignite tick and you use combustion before that second ignite tick then the damage will be higher because ignite bank have the previous criticals damage still in it and the new critical damage.

    2- it is very possible that in those 3 crits, one could be munched, especially in the case of a FB, FB+Pyro crit sequence, in which the second FB is most likely munched depending of timing. This is still a good ignite bank going with FB and pyro crit but not as high as you could dream of.
    Last edited by angayelle; 2012-02-16 at 09:02 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by angayelle View Post
    Totally wrong both, sorry.

    1- LB/pyro dot dps doesn't matter at all, recast them to get bigger is totally useless, only the presence of it is checked.

    2- sp/int affect combustion dot size and front damage.
    Mastery affects it as well. I always thought that when you hit combustion the game checked to see if you had living bomb and pyroblast on the target, and then subsequently generated a new base tick value for you based on your spellpower and mastery. Therefore, lb/pyro dot dps kind of matter, but not the ones actually ticking on the boss, rather the "imaginary" one that is calculated when you hit combustion. Correct me if I am wrong, as I have not tested this directly, but rather inferred it from other tests as well as simply playing.

    Edit: After a little bit of testing it appears that this is the case. Combustion appears to be ignite tick/2 + imaginary living bomb tick/~2.9 + imaginary pyroblast tick/3. The damage from ignite and pyroblast is always exactly correct, while the damage from living bomb has a certain degree of variance. I'm not sure why the damage from living bomb varies and isn't tick/3, and if I get the change this weekend I will look into it.
    Last edited by Aantu; 2012-02-16 at 07:00 PM.

  15. #15
    Could you share the formula how you're calculating your LB and pyro dps ?

  16. #16
    isn't it just as simple as duration/dmg? For example, 43353 dmg over 12.34 seconds, just divide and get the dps, no?

  17. #17
    i was refering to a post which have been deleted meanwhile, it seems and i should have been more precise: how are you getting the dps value ingame ? Getting the dps of a dot after it have fully did its damage is easy, i'm more interested in the formula and ways to get it while it's ticking.

  18. #18
    X is Spell Power and Y is Mastery Rating at the instant Combustion is cast
    A is "imaginary" Living Bomb tick (NOTE: the way combustion calculates this tick is NOT the same as the way it calculates regular living bomb ticks. For combustion, mastery is multiplied like normal, and for normal ticks mastery is additive with the talent Critical Mass and multiplicative with everything else)
    B is "imaginary" Pyroblast tick
    C is Ignite tick (the bank of ignite/2 if it is a one-crit ignite or 3 if it is a refreshed ignite)
    NOTE: All values are exact to 5 significant figures. I got rid of zeros to save room

    Combustion tick value = A/3 + B/3 + C/2

    For the Pyroblast dot, the spell coefficient is .180 per tick and the base damage is 164 per tick.
    A = (164 + .180X)(1.03)(1.25)(.00015618Y + 1.224) = (211.15 + .23175X)(.00015618Y + 1.224)

    For Living Bomb, the spell coefficient is .258 per tick and the base damage is 234 per tick.
    B = (234 + .258X)(.00015618Y + 1.224)(1.03)(1.15)(1.25) = (346.47 + .382X)(.00015618Y + 1.224)

    C is simply the ignite tick. I'm sure you have a good model for this, so I am not including it

    Combustion tick value = (211.15 + .23175X)(.00015618Y + 1.224)/3 + (346.47 + .382X)(.00015618Y + 1.224)/3 + C/2
    -If any of those three dots is not on the boss just take that part out

    Simplified if all three dots are on the boss: (.75123X + .087088Y + .000095855XY + 682.52)/3 + C/2
    Last edited by Aantu; 2012-02-18 at 07:02 AM.

  19. #19
    High Overlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hartlin View Post
    I tend to use my pyroblast procs instantly, as quickly as I can. Is this wrong? Should I be waiting a second and using an extra fireball cast before I use the proc?
    Fireball and Pyroblast have the same travel time. If you're adjusting for latency (by using the latency monitor on Quartz, for example) and you cast Pyroblast at the same time as your Fireball cast finishes, they'll leave at the same time, and arrive at the same time. The game basically treats it as one spell, so if they both crit, only one crit will register. I used to do this, but now I delay my Pyroblasts by a fraction of a second to ensure that they arrive at different times. I've noticed an increase in DPS since starting this.

    Don't delay your procs by casting another Fireball, since you may miss another Pyroblast.

  20. #20
    Spells don't have to land at exactly the same time to munch.

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