Dragon Soul - just as bad as ToC? Discuss

[Deleted]

Yeah i though ToC Was so bad, so bad. But when..

A Day DS came out, and i found a even worse raid ToC.

[Inos]

Lol no sorry not even close to ToC DS seemed rushed but all around its not terrible. ToC just blew hard

[Murghoul]

Dragon Soul is okay. I think the only reason I'm enjoying it is because I'm in a group that I love to do shit with. My main problem is that we have started clearing it in one night with about 45 minutes left to spare in our raid schedule. It's just too short. At least with ToC I could do normal one day and then heroic the next.

[Desdonde]

Nothing can be as bad as ToC/TotGC. But yeah it's definitely not their best work

[ANewStart]

Every raid going forward will be worse then ToC, since LFR makes it easier then ever by a mile to clear all the content. So challenge for seeing content is out the window.

This is why true raiders have quit the game, it will just be casuals playing going forward and therefore nerfs to heroic bosses will be part of the package even with LFR.

LFR tried to solve many problems:

1) Low pop realms
2) Shift workers
3) Bad players
4) Most importantly it tries to replace Guild masters and officers who have quit the game as they are a dying breed in wow.

[Wondercrab]

I think the biggest issue with ToC was the static and boring environment the entire raid took place in, both visually and thematically.
As much as one can complain about the lack of original zone art in Dragon Soul, even though the settings aren't original they are good. The top of Wyrmrest temple is a pretty neat location for a boss battle, as is the stomach of a tentacle monster, the Maelstrom, the Eye of Eternity, and the deck of an airship soaring through the clouds.

It didn't have the cohesive and engaging theme of places like Ulduar, Karazhan or Black Temple, but it had a lot of cool stuff.
Dragon Soul to me is like one of those summer blockbuster action movies, it might be a little cheap, you might not get as much out of it as a more carefully constructed product, but at the end of the day it basically gets everything right that it needs to, and it's a fun ride.

[Ineedtoshift]

Is DS same crap as toc? IMO no. TOC had alot of flaws. There was no interesting fights. The only fight that was relitivly decent was faction champs because at least there was a chance of a different fight everytime. DS is not great but it definatly isnt bad from a boss fight standpoint. The reused art is a lack of whatever but most of the bosses I think are well thoughtout. Normal modes lack in alot of areas but once you start to get to heroic the fights start to come together rather well. Morchok is meh. Once you see heroic yorsaj you will understand why this is a fun encounter. Having such a vast difference in damage/healing between the different oozes is well put together. Hagara heroic takes alot of coordination. ALOT. I mean every single boss ever done in wow can be simplified. You have to realize its a game and there is only so many mechanics that there are bound to be overlaps. Its always the same. Do't stand here, move to here, stand there, heal alot, heal less, use all cd's ect ect ect. Ive been raiding since SSC and I enjoy wow for wow. Is alot of it getting reptitive yes! But it really has been repetitive for quite a while and will continue to be. Blizzard just hopes to throw in enough new stuff to keep peoples minds off of how repetitive it actually is getting.

[ANewStart]

I think the biggest issue with ToC was the static and boring environment the entire raid took place in, both visually and thematically.
As much as one can complain about the lack of original zone art in Dragon Soul, even though the settings aren't original they are good. The top of Wyrmrest temple is a pretty neat location for a boss battle, as is the stomach of a tentacle monster, the Maelstrom, the Eye of Eternity, and the deck of an airship soaring through the clouds.

It didn't have the cohesive and engaging theme of places like Ulduar, Karazhan or Black Temple, but it had a lot of cool stuff.
Dragon Soul to me is like one of those summer blockbuster action movies, it might be a little cheap, you might not get as much out of it as a more carefully constructed product, but at the end of the day it basically gets everything right that it needs to, and it's a fun ride.

At least blizzard has players that are easy to please. Around 10.2 million to be exact, maybe I am just a fussy f*#cker

[Spike`]

Toc was way better than DS

and the key word is: dynamic

where is that in DS? and yes 7/8hc here (before you bash your normal thing)

DS is totally scripted thing, TOC was bad art wise, yes it was but in PVE stand point was really nice fights (that is what make us want to come back every week to the fights (excluding loot for many of you), its the fun you get downing the bosses)

my guild even made inguild bet's system for when someone get hit from the 3º boss from 1º encounter to have to pay to all the others and so many laughs we got from it or from factions champions earing the Cloths crying

i for one like dynamic encounters (not the kind of Lord Rhyolith, seriously just no), DS has no dynamic, its boring (hell even the NPCs watching your fights in TOC, cheering for you, etc was better than any thing in DS)

why do you think that Lich King was really a nice encounter? if you ask a friend that played then or anyone here for> Whats the first thing that come to mind in the LK fight? < i guarantee that almost the first thing that will pop out in is mind is : DEFILE

why? dynamic mechanism that changed every time the encounter or wipe it

there's nothing of that in DS, nothing, 0

[Jinto]

ToC had better encounters by far. It was a boring instance mostly because of 4 bosses and tiny raid environment. DS looks better and feels more like a raid but encounters outside of Yor'sahj and maybe Blackhorn are very boring. ToC also had a higher degree of personal responsibility.

[Deleted]

Comparing both raids 1 on 1, Dragonsoul is better then ToC. However, I still think Dragonsoul is worse, because of the following reasons:

1) Dragonsoul is the (presumably) last raid in an expansion with the big bad final boss, so standards and expectations should/are quite a bit higher. Dragonsoul however (and mostly Madness of Deathwing) doesn't live up to what you would expect of the final epic raid/boss. ToC was just a filler to prepare for ICC, so expectations are lower.

2) In terms of environment/instance design, Dragonsoul is slightly better, but only by a margin. The big letdown with ToC was that 4 out of the 5 bosses were in the same small room, which is boring. Dragonsoul on the other hand mostly consists of re-used environments (except for minor adjustments) which we've seen over and over.

3) In terms of boss design regarding to raid composition, ToC was also slightly better. These days in heroic Dragonsoul on 10 men there are quite some limitations on raid composition, where a certain setup or even a certain class/spec is required to not over complicate your progress. The only thing from ToC where this happened was Anub-Arak 25 heroic, where you needed a warrior/paladin with full block(value) gear.

4) In terms of overall boss desing I'd say I prefer ToC, mostly due to points 1 and 3. Bosses weren't "beyond awesome" but they were good enough, had a nice variety of encounter types and lots of new mechanics. Dragonsoul also has some variety in the encounters, but too often is just strait forward hit boss, don't stand in bad stuff, loot. This is only compensated by tuning certain boss abilities in such a way that point 3 applies again.

5) ToC had 1 big plus over Dragonsoul and that was the extra achievement of killing Anub-Arak without wiping once during the entire instance. Overall I'm not a big fan of limited attempts, but in terms of achievements it's a nice addition.

6) Something that both raids have in common is that people can get burned out from them quickly. In ToC this was because a) the environment wasn't great, b) there were only 5 bosses and c) on 25 heroic Anub-Arak was quite a step up from the other bosses (Anub overtuned or others undertuned, you name it). Dragonsoul also has this problem, not so much because of the number of bosses or even the re-used environment, but LFR. If you faceroll LFR with alts a couple of times a week, you'll get bored of the instance pretty quickly.


Overall, if you take the purpose of the raid and all that into consideration, I think ToC was better. It wasn't great, but it didn't have to be. The thing that made ToC feel worse then it actually was, was because we all just came out of Ulduar (which imo is still the best raid to date). And after ToC came ICC, which (on all points) was better then ToC, certainly looking at environment and number of bosses.
Dragonsoul on the other hand might feel less bad, because before that we had Firelands which... well.. wasn't as good as it could have been (couple of faceroll heroic modes and then massively overtuned Ragnaros). So naturally you'll be pleased faster with new content if the previous wasn't all that topnotch.

[Deleted]

I don't really hate either of them. *shrugs* If anything, people only seem to be hating on either raid because ''It's the cool thing to do''.
Barely anyone here has justified their opinion, and most of the attempts at justification have just been ''It was bad because it was bad.''

I definitely prefer some of the other raids to Dragon Soul, or ToC. I quite liked ICC, and Zul'Aman. But I like DS and ToC too. They simply aren't my favourites.

---------- Post added 2012-02-14 at 03:54 PM ----------

ToC had better encounters by far. It was a boring instance mostly because of 4 bosses and tiny raid environment. DS looks better and feels more like a raid but encounters outside of Yor'sahj and maybe Blackhorn are very boring. ToC also had a higher degree of personal responsibility.

Higher degree of personal responsibility? Compared to what? Hagara HC, Ultraxion N/HC and many other encounters hinge on players taking care of themselves, or dying AND wiping the group. ToC had what? Paralytic Poison on Twin Jormungars and spikes on Anub?

There's far more demanding ''responsibilities'' than running to the guy with the debuff within 10 seconds or standing on the ice patch in time in Dragon Soul.

[Deleted]

Even if you go back and ROFLSTOMP it at 85, Lich King 25 heroic is on so many levels a better encounter than the Deathwing fights its just painful. That slow descent down the stairs - "So, the light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne, and throw myself on your mercy Fordring?" I can't remember ANY of the deathwing fight RP. All I think of is "yawn, more tentacle adds."

DW is such a poor excuse for an end of expack raid boss it is almost painful to think about. Compare Deathwing to Illidan, Kil jaedan, Lich King - it's not fit to be named amongst those encounters.

[Deleted]

ToC was so much better.

I really hate trash so ToC was really fun for me.

[Deleted]

I honestly didnt think ToC was THAT bad. But i dont think DS is THAT bad either. But i have to agree that mechanically speaking ToC was alot more instresting than DS is. Alone the fact that i had to do the encounters few times, before i totally understand what to do in ToC speaks for itself. While in DS i dont have to know the mechanics as long as i keep stacked up and heal everything is fine. The ultimate disappointment for me in DS is the so called Deathwing encounter, wich is in my opinion only sligtly more intresting than the trash before Ultra. Yes it is THAT bad.

[Deleted]

I stopped playing wow for a while when ToC came out, so that might speek for itself about my opinion towards it.

But nevertheless I must agree with the OP: DS is way worse!

Reasons for me:
- boring mechanics (as probably required for LFR, imagine something like Atramedes on LFR...)
- no special class abilities required, just heal/dps as much as you can... *yawn*
- the different fights feel totally disjointed, the setting is copy&pasted...
- the trash is terrible/repetitive
- it feels nothing like the announcement (epic battle against the black dragonflight... I have not yet seen an epic army)

In ToC the setting was quite lame, but the fights were interesting at least. I think most people hate it because it came to early (when the majority was still progressing trough Ulduar) and it was directly compared to one of the best raids ever.

[Deleted]

Can't really compare the two, Togc being mid expansion , DS being the "epic" endexpansion instance..
Both were quite terrible, at least ToGC had one beastly encounter which was anub hc 25.Enjoyed it alot.
Compared to an endexpansion instance like DS which is just a HUGE dissapointment with terrible designed fights ( Heroic Spine/Heroic Madness)

[Herecius]

As a raid, it's your opinion whether or not ToC was worse or not, because that's subjective. But as a tier, ToC was damn worse, because it was very short, and had the terrible design of segregating 10, 10 heroic, 25, and 25 heroic. The shortness of it would have been just fine if it wasn't the only raid of its entire tier, but it was, and that was awful. Even if those few encounters it had were AMAZING (they weren't all amazing, even if I loved Twin Valks), an entire tier of just those fights is bad.

[Spellsword]

All raids from now on will be designed for LFR first and then have numbers tuned up for Normal/Heroic with maybe 1 mechanic added. Blizzard will pick one fight to be "impossibly hard" for heroic to act as the gatekeeper between world first guilds and the rest.

That's how raiding is going to be. They aren't going to waste time designing a boss that can't be done in LFR - so expect more tank and spanks. Tuning will be to just increase the incoming damage enough so that the gear curve smooths that out. It will no longer depend on players being individually good.

I completely agree, they have to balance everything around the bads first.

To fix this there needs to be completely different mechanics, hell a completely different fight in normal and heroic. Unfortunately that would most likely take up too many resources leading to boring ass raids, essentially a copy of LFR version with bigger numbers.

[Vegemeat]

Or to make people want to keep playing just as TOR came out - they've done that before with other rival MMOs.

Name of release and "rival" mmo?