frost or unholy for pve in 4.3.2?

[Fjelltispe]

Hello, i've read around in some of these threads here and im wondering what spec is better for pve? Frost or unholy?
Personally i like frost better since i kinda don't "know" how to play unholy. I get slow starts and stay slow meaning i do bad dps.
I know I'm doing something wrong but what?
Here's my rotation:
- I start with outbreak
- May lay down a DnD(Should i always do this off cd or only when adds around?)
- I start hammering SS and using DC.
- Using festering when I'm out of Death runes.
- I'm always using the ghoul transformation thingy when its ready.
- And I'm trying to combind unholy frenzy with transform + Gargoyle so they get max benefit from that.
Anyway could you guys give me some tips? I feel like unholy is better than frost atm.
I cba to link armory right now since I'm not currently specced unholy.
But I'm rocking 4/5 T13, gurth and I'm also basically rocking full 397.

If you could give me some tips on how to use my abilitys better, how have a good opener and how to use my CD's correctly it would be much appriciated.

- Fjell

[Nihilife]

So, it seems you know the basics. The rotation is pretty simple, I mean, once you know one DK spec you pretty much know the concept behind the basic rotation for them all. Just start off with Outbreak, follow with SS, then use FeS, you want to always make sure your runes are always on cooldown, then, once all your runes are on CD you need to make sure you're not RP capping, so throw out a DC if you're at like 70+ (depending on your spec, I only take one point in RPM, but if you have more you can obviously pool more), but if you're not RP capped use SS or DnD, if it's off CD, and FeS, only spending your blood/frost runes on FeS. Use Dark Transformation once you have 5 stacks Shadow Infusion, which uses an unholy/death rune, so it replaces an SS. Also, you should start pooling RP when DT is about to run out so you can spike it back up, since RC stacks now. But the amount of time you wait to start pooling depends on your haste and will need to be found through trial and error. As for your Garg and Unholy Frenzy, you have it right, always use UF before you use your Garg so it benefits from the berserk (as a side note for min/maxing, getting fortexorcist and having it watch trikets can be a pretty decent dps boost if your trinket is about to come off CD and you wait for that extra proc), this would also be the best time to use your strength pot.


As a note, I like to use SS over DnD in my opening rotation since it does take like 1/5 of a second to click it down, which is time that my frost/blood runes are capped, otherwise use DnD over SS if the boss/mob will be in it for its full 11 ticks, otherwise it's not worth it.

Edit: Yes, unholy is the best spec right now. Just take a look at World of Logs, it out preforms frost on most fights. The unholy skill cap is higher though, and the DPS difference is marginal on a lot of fights, so I would suggest sticking with what you know best.

[Fjelltispe]

Ill provide you with the link to my amory so you also can look for what i need to improve in reforging aswell.
Or well seems like i cant post links or something yet... anyway Look up Fjelltispe on Stormreaver EU alliance, and you can see.
I know im 0.01% behind hitcap, but i'll fix that later.
Also im running really low on Mastery in this reforging. So some tips here would also be great
And tbh i dont understand shit about these reforge site/addons people are talking about, i've tryed and i didnt get anything out of it.
Also what should i do when i dont have RP, and runes off CD?

[Nihilife]

I looked at your armory, everything looks good. Personally, I don't use a stat calculator, and it's really unnecessary for unholy since we only need to reach one stat cap, which is hit. As for running low on mastery and being .01% under hit cap, this seems to be a common misconception with stats. The hit cap is basically the same as a haste cap, you want to get as close as possible to it, and going over is sometimes a dps increase, but anything over 8% (with 2h) is completely wasted stat. And the same as mastery, all stats are a dps increase, you shouldn't really mind, because it means you have extra haste, or other stats. I tend to focus on the actual stat's value, rather than what it does, and just roll with it, but that's just me. As for downtime, when you have it, just horn or auto attack, not much more than that.

If you don't mind me asking, did you reroll from a caster or something?

[Fjelltispe]

If you don't mind me asking, did you reroll from a caster or something?

Myes, i've been playing casters in wow since i started, and i've always been a fan of dk's for a reason, so i rolled one. casters got lame anyway =)

And btw what is "haste cap"?
And yeah i always do horn when im out of stuff to do, but it seems like those 3-4 seconds lasts forever!:C

[Nihilife]

Afaik, Unholy doesn't have a currently reachable haste cap, I just just saying you shouldn't be too worried about your hit cap as long as it's close to the cap, going over is just wasted stats.

[Vereesa]

Afaik, Unholy doesn't have a currently reachable haste cap, I just just saying you shouldn't be too worried about your hit cap as long as it's close to the cap, going over is just wasted stats.

At approximately 2600 haste rating, you'll start capping on resources. I would recommend anyone to stop stacking haste at that point and go for crit or mastery instead. (depending on your weapon)

[Nihilife]

At approximately 2600 haste rating, you'll start capping on resources. I would recommend anyone to stop stacking haste at that point and go for crit or mastery instead. (depending on your weapon)

Is that currently reachable though? I haven't raided seriously since 4.1.

[Vereesa]

Is that currently reachable though? I haven't raided seriously since 4.1.

DS gear doesn't offer that much haste, but it's certainly reachable.

[Youvegotfail]

For some reference: I'm in all 397 gear as well with Gurthalak for Unholy and two HoM (one normal, one heroic) for Frost and i personally get better numbers as frost. I do everything correctly as Unholy, but just can't seem to get it up to par with my frost spec. I tend to lean towards comfort level as an explanation (excuse?). Haven't played unholy since early t11 until i got Gurth and decided to try it out. Long story short, I'm staying frost

TL;DR: Play the one you prefer unless your raid needs you to play the other for a specific buff.

[Cerunnir]

Is that currently reachable though? I haven't raided seriously since 4.1.

Easily in dragon soul gear. You could get there in 391 firelands gear aswell. I guess if you went max haste DS 410 gear you could get to 2800-2900.

---------- Post added 2012-02-20 at 06:48 PM ----------

Myes, i've been playing casters in wow since i started, and i've always been a fan of dk's for a reason, so i rolled one. casters got lame anyway =)

And btw what is "haste cap"?

The point when haste gets devalued to the point where other stats is more valuable. Example of this would be getting so much haste, you would not be able to spend your resources in time. Strictly speaking its a soft cap. Im guess the first "soft cap" is when you are not able to spend your resources and find yourself maxing your runic power all the time. Next one is when you can essentially alternate between frost strike and obliterate. Final one would be when you could just obliterate back to back without stopping, except to put up diseases. The first one is obtainable, and ive found it to be at around 2600'ish haste at which point mastery becomes better. The second is essentially unobtainable with the possible exception of under bloodlust. Last one? No way. It would be the absolute max DPS the class could dish out and only modified by crit and strength.

[Craved]

What I didn't see posted was this question, are you using blood tap on CD and using AMS to absorb damage and convert it to RP? This should help ya quite a bit as well. Other than that it looks like you got everything in the Rotation down.

[Fjelltispe]

What I didn't see posted was this question, are you using blood tap on CD and using AMS to absorb damage and convert it to RP? This should help ya quite a bit as well. Other than that it looks like you got everything in the Rotation down.

Well i normally just use blood tap when its off cd yes, i don't know when to use it the proper way, so im just spamming it when off cd. Also i didnt use AMS for RP, but ill use it now

[mihaitha]

Unholy has a smoother gameplay (meaning you don't need to react so fast on procs) than Frost. Your main priority is getting 5 stacks of Shadow Infusion on Timmy to proc transformation, then priority is: Diseases > not capping RP > SS > FeS > DC > DnD (preferably on cooldown, but try to make sure it ticks long enough, don't drop it right before boss will be moved). Anticipate high magic damage phases and pop AMS then and chaingun DC's, use gargoyle on bloodlust/heroism and then on CD (preferably lined with frenzy), and that's pretty much it. Oh, and don't pop frenzy during bloodlust/heroism (they don't stack and you will just be wasting the frenzy).

//edit: another thing you consider is pooling RP before transformation is about to run out, this way you have the runic for a few coils right after that, and with a bit of luck with sudden doom procs you can have Timmy fully buffed again in no time.

[Eo Jenkins]

I am unholy atm

[fangless]

Frost doesn't really do the whole reactionary proc thing as much anymore. A proc used for Froststrike instead of Obliterate isn't as much of a loss as it used to be. Much less punishing. You still should aim to use them for Obliterate when runes are near ready, but hitting a Froststrike as a proc occurs won't ruin your day.

Unholy has to react, though, all the same. You're gonna get more runes than in a Frost spec, and have to manage your DC procs to make sure you aren't allowing runes to pool when you have large streaks of Runic Corruption. Also, I feel like Unholy gets hurt a lot more when you mismanage your resources and allow your pet to remain un-transformed for large periods of time. Not to mention having to manage your procs/CDs around Dark Transformation and Unholy Frenzy/Ghoul. Using the later during Bloodlust is largely a waste, whereas Frost can use their 20% str CD basically every minute, and not have to worry about capping out on runes. It's easier to dump resources as Frost.


Honestly, if you know how to play both the same, then it'll come down to this:

Unholy will do a bit more damage with equal gear, and has AMZ as a utility (if you spec into it, which you can without a lot of dps loss) which is useful for 1-2 fights.
Frost is largely the same DPS, and has the benefit of faster ramp up time and less worrying about managing resources when moving around constantly to change targets.


Best bet is to try one for one raid ID, and the other for the next. See what you can manage better.

[Breyers]

Morchok - Unholy
Zon'ozz - Unholy
Yor'sahj - Frost
Hagara - Frost
Ultraxion - Unholy
Blackhorn - Frost or Unholy
Spine - Frost
Madness - Frost

My personal experience with which is best for both DPS and Raid Utility overall.