Why does gear progression exist in PVP?

[Protoman]

Something I have always wondered. When you look at other competitive online games like FPS people all have access to the same perks, guns, and attachments (although it might take a few weeks to unlock). Wins are a measure of skill, and not gear. You can copy the exact same setup as the MVP of a previous game, but still do just as poorly because you lack skill.

In MMO's, you have to pvp in pve gear till you can buy resil gear, and even then there is a higher tier of gear that can only be bought if you have a high rating.....so the players who are already more skilled then others get access to better gear that the average player can't buy.

This doesn't make much sense to me. IMO they should GIVE everyone a full set of blue PVP gear for free, and make it so you can only use PVP gear in PVP, no more pve gear, weapons, and trinkets. This would start everyone off on an equal footing. Then you can farm honor to buy a set of epic PVP gear, but no rating requirement attached to it. Reward high ratings in some other way, such as cooler skins to transmog with or something. This way, after a few weeks of playing everyone will have the same epic PVP gear, and players that perform well will do so based purely on skill, and not because they have better gear.

Technically, the gear doesn't even need to go up in ilvl from season to season. The only reason that happens now is to keep pace with PVE gear which people use in PVP. If you were forced to use only PVP gear in PVP, there would be no reason to keep boosting the AP/SP/stats each time, and balancing classes for their dps or healing would be MUCH easier to accomplish. We have seen MS go from 50% down to 25%, then back up to 50% because healing keeps fluctuating because of new gear, as well as damage. Higher ilvl gear from each new season just throws off any attempt to balance the game, so every season you have to rebalance everything again.

Anyone else agree?

[Aschark]

Ignoring the fair amount of assumptions in this post, you seem to be unfamiliar with the general fact that we're talking about an MMO.

Why bother PvPing in WoW when you can play a top tier e-sport like SC2? Or even something as generic and hopeless as Call of Duty? What sets an MMO apart? Tab target gameplay while actually managing CC's (crazy, right?) isn't exactly difficult or even fun, in many aspects.

Why do they introduce things in games where you can only unlock X perk if you are level 50? Why? Ask yourself that before we go barking up this tree again.

[Alvito]

They have to improve pvp gear lvl by lvl or ppl would just pvp in pve gear. Doing that would force ppl that only wanted to pvp to pve to get good or the best gear.

[roahn the warlock]

Something I have always wondered. When you look at other competitive online games like FPS people all have access to the same perks, guns, and attachments (although it might take a few weeks to unlock). Wins are a measure of skill, and not gear. You can copy the exact same setup as the MVP of a previous game, but still do just as poorly because you lack skill.

Anyone else agree?

Holy contradictions batman!

you can get full 403 gear within a few weeks, and yes one skilled player can very easily throw the tides of battle. and NO, you do not need to pvp in pve gear, you can go and buy the 377 pvp gear which works just fine. it's 377 anyway. get the 50 honor break cc trink. then you grab the trinks necklace rings and back, then you start replacing your blues. it is as simple as that.

so yes they GIVE everyone a full set of pvp gear, that costs around 1000 gold to make.

[Deleted]

They're simply rewards, if you're skilled you'll get high enough rating to buy the tier 2 PvP weapons and armor regardless of a slight stat disadvantage.

[Choptimus]

If there was no gear progression in PvP, there would be no carrot on the end of the stick for everybody outside the top 0.1% who actually play for the competetive challenge rather than the flex factor. This causes carrot-less people to get bored and wander off into other fields, perhaps containing cabbages or even broccoli.

Do you have any idea how much money people spend on broccoli protection each year? It's not a lot, the broccoli is practically unguarded. We need to keep the sticks loaded up with carrots for the sake of broccoli alone.

[madatom]

at a competitive level its assumed you have the gear needed to compete

since your asking this question your obviously not at the competitive level yet, also if your able to beat people at a competitive level with less gear then your obviously very decent

[Azgraal]

It wouldn't be too entertaining for someone with S1 gear to face someone in full tier 13.... that's why.

Pve moves on. With the system blizzard has implemented, pvp is forced to move on also, as it is easier to redefine the entire stat definitions of the game.

[Dhurn]

WoW PvP is already pretty lackluster, removing the primary rewards would all but kill it. Like it or not a large number of people PvP because they know when they go into a BG their gear is going to let them smash 80% of the other teams combatants. And working towards that kind of power is why said 80% hobbles through the BGs for honor in the first place. WoW PvP is so stale that trying to let it survive on the basis of it's gameplay alone would be a terrible move.

[Protoman]

Why bother PvPing in WoW when you can play a top tier e-sport like SC2? Or even something as generic and hopeless as Call of Duty? What sets an MMO apart? Tab target gameplay while actually managing CC's (crazy, right?) isn't exactly difficult or even fun, in many aspects.

Well, those are diff gameplay types....RTS vs FPS vs MMORPG. You can boil it down to tab target and CC rotations, but there is more to an mmorpg then that. Every class has unique abilities, and I do enjoy the cap flag and territories gameplay of wsg and ab. Working as a group, as well as having plenty of oppertunities for 1v1 or 2v2 skirmished on the way to an objective are fun too.

Are you saying the only reason to PVP is get better gear so you can gank noobs who are undergeared? You can still dominate an opponent who is just a bad player, even if you have the exact same ilvl gear on.

They have to improve pvp gear lvl by lvl or ppl would just pvp in pve gear. Doing that would force ppl that only wanted to pvp to pve to get good or the best gear.

It wouldn't be too entertaining for someone with S1 gear to face someone in full tier 13.... that's why.

Pve moves on. With the system blizzard has implemented, pvp is forced to move on also, as it is easier to redefine the entire stat definitions of the game.

You missed the part where I said PVP would require PVP gear only, no PVE gear. That would solve alot of problems with people using legendary weapons, or humans with 2 pve trinkets, or people wearing pve gear to boost their damage beyond the expected damage you would get if just wearing full PVP gear.

Every season they have to upgrade the ilvl of PVP gear to keep up with the PVE gear. This basically destroys any effort made towards balance since both damage and healing are unpredictable again.....this is clearly noticeable when they had to buff MS back to 50% from 25% because healing went out of control. By requiring everyone to wear PVP gear, they would have a much better idea of how each class stands and performs for both dps and healing....and they wouldn't have to update the ilvl each season and rebalance since that extra AP, SP, or crit might make one spec or class too strong.

WoW PvP is already pretty lackluster, removing the primary rewards would all but kill it. Like it or not a large number of people PvP because they know when they go into a BG their gear is going to let them smash 80% of the other teams combatants. And working towards that kind of power is why said 80% hobbles through the BGs for honor in the first place. WoW PvP is so stale that trying to let it survive on the basis of it's gameplay alone would be a terrible move.

Getting PVP gear is just a cheap grind, everyone can eventually get atleast the first tier of epic gear. But then there is the gear with rating requirement, which gives already skilled players a further advantage over people who either don't bother to arena or do rated bg's, or just not skilled enough to get it.

Like I said earlier, you can still dominate an opponent by playing well, using all your abilities, and knowing how to counter the other class. If everyone had a uniform, standard set of gear, it would mean that everything would be purely skill based. People might even be more inclined to actually play objectives and not just try to farm honor.

I honestly enjoy WSG and AB for the objectives, as well as plenty of opportunities to find players alone so I can fight them 1v1. AV is also fun because it has alot more objectives and alot more chances to get into small skirmishes.

[asharia]

has to stay ahead of pve gear

[Flaks]

Absolutely terrible arguments made so far by the people trying to call out the OP.

There is literally no reason to have PvP gear progression other than to keep the game feeling more like an MMO and less like what they've attempted to make it: an e-sport.

There are two things which need to go. Gear progression for one, and its something Blizzard clearly agrees with where people at tournaments and on the tournament realm itself are all on equal footing in terms of gear. And for another, abilities not being different in PvP and PvE. Both these changes would only make the game better.

There's literally no downside to such changes whatsoever besides development time. And seeing how they've clearly been able to do it with a few abilities here and there I don't see it being a relatively large or time-consuming feat between expansions.

[Loaf Lord]

It's the carrot, go chase it.

[PizzaSHARK]

They're simply rewards, if you're skilled you'll get high enough rating to buy the tier 2 PvP weapons and armor regardless of a slight stat disadvantage.

The point is that there shouldn't be a stat difference at all. Honestly, everyone should just have their stats and such locked when entering a PvP area. They're doing that for the 5-man PvE time attack thing, so that'll set a precedent.

PvP is about competition, competing against other players to determine who the best is. There's no reason that there need to be stat differences involved - the only thing that should determine who wins is who has the better team.

But the gear grind exists because this is an MMO and MMOs are fucking ack basswards when it comes to gaming innovation.

[Stanton Biston]

OP says, 'why does gear exist' and then says, 'Everyone gets the same gear, even if it takes weeks to unlock.'

Same logic works for WoW, ergo no gear issue.

What's left? Nothing.

All games have some sort of progression. MOBAs, modern FPSes, RPGs, hell there's even levels and such in Madden. The differences are purely academic. Almost every multiplayer game on the market (except for one or two notable genres) has a progression. The differences are superficial.

[Bawl]

Without typing out a whole book, I'll say that one, I understand why the system is set up the way it is, and two, I don't like it either. That's why I go elsewhere for my PVP fix, where people play because they actually enjoy the game, not because they want the newest shiny thing.

[Borzo]

I'd make excuses for MMORPG PVP, but I won't. Just play other PVP games, like the ones listed, and be happy with that.

If you insist on MMORPG-style combat, but want it to be skill-based, then (yes, I know it's a cliche at this point, but) wait for Guild Wars 2. Hopefully that'll do it for you.

I'll be honest though. MMORPG players use TIME (ie gear grinding) to make up for lack of SKILL. It's like a trade. Shitty players trade time for gear, and pretend to be skilled players.

Like someone else posted, at the top tiers it eventually evens out if you are good enough... but below that top tier, its full of fail-PVPers who are terrible, but use gear to become... average/mediocre. Those are the players attracted to PVP in MMORPGs. They'd never be able to cut it or get anywhere in a skill-based game... so they play MMORPGs like WOW and SWTOR. These games are like freaking magnets for bad PVP players.

I liked the WOW tournament realms, where gear was balanced... and I'd totally play on that 365/year if they offered it. But they only lasted a few weeks I think, and the differences between comps was sometimes ridiculously extreme.

[DechCJC]

Holy contradictions batman!

you can get full 403 gear within a few weeks, and yes one skilled player can very easily throw the tides of battle. and NO, you do not need to pvp in pve gear, you can go and buy the 377 pvp gear which works just fine. it's 377 anyway. get the 50 honor break cc trink. then you grab the trinks necklace rings and back, then you start replacing your blues. it is as simple as that.

so yes they GIVE everyone a full set of pvp gear, that costs around 1000 gold to make.

The full set is about 10k on my realm - I refuse to pay that much when I have as many alts as I do considering i'd be replacing the gear fast. Those first few bgs that you do on a newly dinged 85 character is one of the most frustrating experiences on an online game. Being able to do NOTHING unless you buy all of the gear (shouldn't have to buy your way to success imo) is incredibly retarded.

Once you get full ruthless (or whatever the honor armor happens to be at the time) it's not as bad. Just starting off doesn't improve you as a player, it isn't fun, you aren't contributing to your team enough to make any real difference - It's just frustrating, all you are until you get resilience gear is an honorable kill - That's all. You can buy the blue pvp gear if you want, but you seriously shouldn't have to spend so much on gear that you'll instantly replace.

[Yvaelle]

When you look at other competitive online games like FPS people all have access to the same perks, guns, and attachments (although it might take a few weeks to unlock). Wins are a measure of skill, and not gear. You can copy the exact same setup as the MVP of a previous game, but still do just as poorly because you lack skill.

It takes a couple weeks to level to 85, a couple days to grind out an honor set (or a day in AV weekend), and a day to 2200+ if your a 2200+ player in a good comp, how is that much different than the modern competitive FPS'ii? In my day in FPS there was no attachments or perks at all (Q3A/CS/CSS), but I think I understand competitive bf/mw well enough to see the parallels?

[PhilCosby]

so yes they GIVE everyone a full set of pvp gear, that costs around 1000 gold to make.

But 1000g is sooooo hard to get (/sarcasm)

In regards to the OP, why wouldn't it exist? I think it adds a unique flavor to the game. If you think you would prefer otherwise you might want to look into this "GW2" thing...