More info on Destro in Mists, very interesting

[Kildragon]

You know, i'd be more willing to discuss this if you could point out actual problems instead of just stating that it "doesn't work" for some obscure reason that you're either not willing or forgot to share.

Why do you need an auto attack? Why does it not work?

I'll elaborate a bit more. Blizzard manages damage in this game in 2 categories, melee/hunters and casters, with a bunch of subcategories. This is not some insider secret, it can simply be figured out by looking at how classes work.

Melee classes either have resources to manage (Rage, Energy/Combo Points, RP, etc.) or cooldowns (Ret paladins, enhance shamans) with some classes overlapping a bit, such as Ret managing both a resource (holy power) and CD's. This system is to prevent the spamming of abilities, since that would make a lot of classes overly complicated and impossible to balance. With this system comes another problem though, which is the amount of burst classes can put out. If you simply have all of your damage distribution from special attacks, they would hit for insane amounts, on top of being instant, while you would put out 0 damage in between. This is where auto attacks come in. Auto attacks allow Blizz to shift damage from special abilities towards something a lot more constant, auto swings. The entirety of this system is meant to give melee classes outgoing damage in between special attacks, while controlling burst and putting in resource/CD management styles of gameplay.

Casters work a bit differently. Casters do not have the same kind of resource/CD based damage system, but use mana instead. One reason for this is mana not working the same way something like energy works, in both terms of regen and sustainability. A rage or energy bar is very bouncy, depleting quicky and filling up quickly, while a mana bar slowly depletes. Casters do use CD's, Conflag in this case, but they are typically 10+ seconds and aren't the bulk of our damage. Because of the way mana works, we can't have abilities that hit hard, have a short CD AND are instant. The important part of this is the instant part, which is where fillers for casters come in. Spells with a cast time, that do moderate damage, and do not have a CD. They are meant to keep caster gameplay fluid, and for the most part keeping them stationary while using their big moves. It is important to note that casters, with the exception of hunters, are the only classes that have actual filler spells which do not have a CD. This system works largely to the same effect as the melee system in that is is meant to provide constant damage while controlling burst.

Just so I don't become too convoluted, it boils down to a few things.

Casters are stationary while melee are mobile. Casters have cast times while melee have instants. Casters have mana while melee have resources like energy and CDs. Melee get auto attacks to keep their burst low and provide sustained damage. Casters have filler spells to keep their burst low and provide sustained damage. Hunters work a bit differently because their resource can be replenished through casting their filler and because their resource depletes much faster than mana. They can also not be interrupted and with the introduction of focus had to be able to cast on the move (Aspect of the Fox).

If they give Warlocks auto attack, it is not because it's cool, it's because they feel that we need to have it for balancing our damage. If a caster is not GCD locked, yet can still maximize his damage, that means we work similar to rogues, with a fast depleting and fast recharging mana bar. It implicates that we will be burst machines, quickly using our resources, then waiting for them to recharge. We will need an auto attack at this point because we can't always cast, even if we wish to do so, since we will have to pool energy (let's scrap using mana since it won't work like mana anymore).

This brings up even more issues, suddenly we work like melee, with an energy like resource that we cannot cause to regen any faster, but we still have cast times. Now we're stationary like casters, can be interrupted like casters, but we lost our ability to chain spells. We will be sitting there, auto wanding away while waiting for our resource to recharge. We still can't cast while moving (without a HUGE drawback) so if we have to move we will suddenly energy cap, which is bad. In PvP we will be interruptable so we will always be sitting at max energy, not being able to use it because we still have cast times. Since our abilities will scale similar to melee abilities due to auto wand, we will be useless in PvP. We hit as hard as a rogue, but we're always energy capped, and can be interrupted when we try to cast. Even when we get a cast off, we can't chain cast because of interrupts, so we have the damage potential but we will NEVER be able to utilize it.

On the other hand, if our mana bar doesn't deplete very fast, we will be GCD locked, casting our main filler spell as usual, until we have the resources for a soul fire. Which we will never get off in PvP, and which will feel WORSE than early cata 2.5 second Soul Fires, because the cast time has to be long enough for a single soul fire to regen half of our mana bar (2 soulfires regen our entire mana bar, remember).

I guess one of my biggest problems with what we have been given is how little the person that gave us the info seems to know about how this game works. All of these things are quite obvious if you take 5 minutes to think about it, which I would hope Blizzard did. You cannot have a caster that is not GCD locked and is maximizing his damage while not casting, unless our resource works like energy.

---------- Post added 2012-02-23 at 05:31 PM ----------

This is 100% correct. It IS a U turn. There are currently 3 Infinite Mana, GCD capped specs.

Now there are 2. Would a different spec be a better fit for a non-GCD capped spec?

Read my last post for why an uncapped high resource management model for a caster like Warlocks is a terrible idea.

[Deleted]

if they implement this bullshit im quitting wow 100%. Warlock is a fuckin mana class i want to cast as long as i have mana, period. if i wanted to play rogue i would play a fuckin rogue warlock isnt a rogue. Blizzard implementing ridicolous unneeded changes and doesnt focus on core things. Seriously what is getting wrong with this company?

[Jessicka]

This is 100% correct. It IS a U turn. There are currently 3 Infinite Mana, GCD capped specs.

Now there are 2. Would a different spec be a better fit for a non-GCD capped spec?

Not sure if this is a question, or what? But my answer is; do we really need one? The specs plays differently enough without having different resources. Sure, Destro could rely less on DoTs, but otherwise there are enough differences that different encounters suit the specs differently. I liked the model of three trees using the same baseline spells, with different emphasis on DoTs, direct damage, Pets and so on. The degree of crossover does seem to have been reduced substantially.

All that said, we know nothing about Demonology yet, even less about Affliction (no Drain Soul execute?! no mention of Soulshards) so it's too early to say if we even have 2 GCD capped specs.

[Obsidian9]

Not sure if this is a question, or what? But my answer is; do we really need one? The specs plays differently enough without having different resources. Sure, Destro could rely less on DoTs, but otherwise there are enough differences that different encounters suit the specs differently. I liked the model of three trees using the same baseline spells, with different emphasis on DoTs, direct damage, Pets and so on. The degree of crossover does seem to have been reduced substantially.

All that said, we know nothing about Demonology yet, even less about Affliction (no Drain Soul execute?! no mention of Soulshards) so it's too early to say if we even have 2 GCD capped specs.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion but in my eyes at least destruction while fun was far too similar to affliction. Perhaps this change is not the answer but destruction was too close in my opinion.

[Nfariessence]

Make Affliction the DoT spec, with long ramp up but >crazy< throughput. Make Demo the pet spec, with the Felguard doing 2-3 times the dps of the other pets. Make Destro a real burst spec. Not a spec that does +/- 10% dps depending on whether they get an unrealistic crit string or heroism is blown. Congrats, you'll now have 3 distinct trees, that are also distinct from other classes/specs.

[darkminaz]

and i was so looking forward to this
but resource? SRSLY?`we are fucking warlocks use life tap to get mana .. hope it will be more like fire fireee fireeeee booom goes the dynamite then "oh you are low on mana" .. wtf

[Xelnath]

Fundamentally, no spec can have higher throughput than any other spec - or it's the best DPS spec on all long raid fights.

---------- Post added 2012-02-24 at 11:28 AM ----------

Not sure if this is a question, or what? But my answer is; do we really need one? The specs plays differently enough without having different resources. Sure, Destro could rely less on DoTs, but otherwise there are enough differences that different encounters suit the specs differently. I liked the model of three trees using the same baseline spells, with different emphasis on DoTs, direct damage, Pets and so on. The degree of crossover does seem to have been reduced substantially.

All that said, we know nothing about Demonology yet, even less about Affliction (no Drain Soul execute?! no mention of Soulshards) so it's too early to say if we even have 2 GCD capped specs.

What do you enjoy about it? This is clearly an issue very close to you.

Destruction is frequently deadpanned by new and returning players as extremely difficult to perform for little payoff. I see the appeal of being a better player than another - but if the game doesn't reward it, it isn't a worthwhile investment. People naturally follow the path of least resistance.

The thing that irritates me the most about the current Destruction playstyle is that you're not playing Destruction.

This requires an explanation:

Short, unforgiving cooldowns
Rigorous DoT management
More DoTs than any other spec
Reliance on flakey procs

This means that Destruction is not a spec you play - it's a spec that PLAYS YOU. You're playing a very fancy version of Guitar Hero. A game should be about deciding where, when and HOW you unleash the potential of your character. This type of belief about games leads to systems that give you slush.

Slush in this case can come in many forms. A flat cooldown of 4.5 sec means you must press this button every 3rd GCD, metronomically. Imagine instead that you could *not* push the button, but instead wait a little bit longer and push it twice. This means as long as you push that button twice in 9 seconds, you have 100% effectiveness.

Now, combine that with a game that rewards timing, and suddenly the decision making opens up.

This is the direction I see Destruction going:

"I have one ember. Should I spend it now or save up for 2? Well, there's this really annoying add phase soon. If I save up, We can blow up the adds and get back to the boss sooner."

Furthermore, a resource driven model allows you to do the following:

"Oh crap, I didn't Soul Fire immediately at 10 embers. Well, that's OK. My mana bar isn't full and one Soul Fire won't fill it. If I slip it in earlier or later, it has no impact on my total DPS."

Procs, Cooldowns and DoT timings have 0 of that forgiveness.

[Zinnin]

This is the direction I see Destruction going:

"I have one ember. Should I spend it now or save up for 2? Well, there's this really annoying add phase soon. If I save up, We can blow up the adds and get back to the boss sooner."

Furthermore, a resource driven model allows you to do the following:

"Oh crap, I didn't Soul Fire immediately at 10 embers. Well, that's OK. My mana bar isn't full and one Soul Fire won't fill it. If I slip it in earlier or later, it has no impact on my total DPS."

Procs, Cooldowns and DoT timings have 0 of that forgiveness.

The problem with the 'resource management' system they are proposing is that it isn't resource management at all. If you WILL run out of mana, that means you WILL have dead time. This turns your 'decision making' into; Do I want to do damage, or sit around and do nothing. There idea 'might' work if they get rid of the idea of dead time because of low mana and they need to not have the only nuke from embers be soul fire unless the cast time is reduced considerably. But overall they are still basically trying to cut the number of buttons you need to press in half ontop of introducing the idea of a caster with down time.

I love the current destro model. I love the fact that you have a lot of instant casts. I love the way you are never casting incinerate more then 2-3 times in a row. The thought of a spec that is currently so fast paced and forces you to press a different button every few casts turning into a non gcd locks, easy as hell spec makes me cringe.

If they want to make Burning Embers \ Mana Regen an interesting mechanic they need to make you decide between casting something that costs mana and something that costs embers instead of just casting mana spells when you can, and burning ember spells because you went oom.

[Jessicka]

I've not said Destruction doesn't need work, quite the opposite. Thing is, I like flaky procs; they're reactive, you don't have to burn them straight away, and you can in many cases save them to deal with other mechanics - if Nightfall/GoCorr on live procced something other than Shadow Bolt, you could for example save that proc for future movement, but as it is it does a pretty good job of offering a little mobility in and of itself to take some baby steps towards an impending bigger move. I frequently save Molten Core procs to burst adds if I can see they're due on my timers. The interplay between Empowered Imp and ISF actually offered a pretty interesting mechanic if only EI procced a little more often (that gap's been filled with the T13 bonus now). Sure, a secondary resource system could offer a nice way of reaffirming that gameplay and soften the RNG impact (I felt since the moment Impending Doom was implemented that a secondary resource would perhaps be a better way of managing Meta, and pretty sure I said as much either here or on the EU forums around the start of Cata), so when I first saw different specs were getting their own resources, I kinda felt there was potential there for good things.

Now we have the details for Destruction, and I don't feel it's being implemented the right way. Destruction should be avoiding long casts. I really don't think it's a coincidence that Destruction, once our most popular spec, received the ISF mechanic and all the complaints about it that followed particularly regarding the ill fit of the long cast in the 'fast casting spec', and that the class ended up as unpopular as it ever has been - even while Destruction was our top spec in 4.0. Nor do I think it's a coincidence that I'm seeing people return to the class, and the Destruction spec now the T13 set bonus has been implemented to help remove those long casts.

[Kildragon]

This means that Destruction is not a spec you play - it's a spec that PLAYS YOU.

Not really. Almost all specs in the game work similar to destruction. It's a mix of reactionary play on top of long term play. The only thing we react to as Destruction is our SF proc. The rest of the spec is simply following your priority system and knowing when to use certain spells. One of the largest issues with Destruction right now, is that it doesn't feel like Destruction because of our damage distribution. We have 3 dots, 2 short CDs, a pet, the pet/SF dot, a slow cast SF, and our filler. Compare this to wrath, where we had Immo, Conflag, Incinerate, Chaos Bolt for our main rotation, BoD if the target would live for a minute, and Corruption if you were moving. The bulk of our damage came from 4 spells, which lead to all of them feeling powerful. When shifting your damage distribution to a larger number of spells, your individual spells will do less damage. This is mainly about your next comment which was that you don't control when you do damage as Destro. It's partially true, but mainly because none of our nukes do enough damage to make us feel like we're bursting.

A flat cooldown of 4.5 sec means you must press this button every 3rd GCD, metronomically. Imagine instead that you could *not* push the button, but instead wait a little bit longer and push it twice. This means as long as you push that button twice in 9 seconds, you have 100% effectiveness.

You are right in that a 4.5 second CD means you have to press the button every 3rd GCD, but it doesn't really apply to Warlocks. We don't have a short CD like that, and we don't play a class that functions like that. With the new ember mechanics this is probably going to change, but there is always a drawback to something like that. In the case of Warlocks, you'll be doing damage to yourself for holding on to the embers. I like this idea, in fact, I love it. I was extremely excited when I read the first blue post about how Embers will work.

My excitement was drained when I learned how they are currently using this cool and new mechanic. Zinnin basically described it perfectly.

If they want to make Burning Embers \ Mana Regen an interesting mechanic they need to make you decide between casting something that costs mana and something that costs embers instead of just casting mana spells when you can, and burning ember spells because you went oom.

Essentially this new system is boiling down to exactly that, do your regular rotation, go oom, cast your SFs (which have to be 4 second cast times or longer), be back to nearly full mana, repeat.

The other HUGE issue I have with this proposed new model is the idea of a non GCD locked caster. How can you have a caster that is not GCD locked, but has filler spells? Fillers are used when we hit nothing else, it's how the caster model works. You may be able to hold your embers and decide when you want to use them with SF, but as long as we can cast something, we will cast our filler spell. Melee are not GCD locked because they don't have endless resources and do not have an actual filler spell. For casters, our filler spells are used in the same sense as waiting for CDs (Ret Paladins) or waiting for energy (Rogues/Ferals) is used for melee. Non GCD locked means you hit all of your spells, then you have to wait for your resources/CDs during which time you do not have to hit an ability. Filler spells ruin this whole system, by filling that gap between abilities that in melee classes is just empty.

It also worries me that in the example we were given, we cast Incinerate until we are oom which should build up 2 embers. 2 Embers take at least (this is with 100% crits) 17 seconds. That means we will be oom after 17 seconds, and we have to regen all of our mana in 2 casts, so essentially two 4 second SFs.

I suggest you also read my post , which is #85, in which I gave an in depth explanation of why an energy like system for casters is a bad idea. Yes, it would have to be an energy based system, with Incinerate draining our mana bar extremely fast and just 2 SFs almost completely filling it.

[Tankerbell]

It would be interesting to have a spell that we can insta-cast or hold down for x secs to charge - causing more damage but taking longer to cast.

[Jainzar]

pretty interesting news this

[MoonZapdos]

It appears I'm the only Destruction Warlock that is glad the rotation has been simplified (though perhaps more than I had expected - in my opinion, our rotation in 3.3.5 was about perfect, back when Corruption was negligible and there was no bullcrap ISF mechanic). I also don't understand what's people's big issue with switching resources, it's not like Warlocks were a class afflicted by mana problems anyway.

The rotation simplification was much needed for Destruction. From all DPS classes I've played, Destruction definitely has the most chaotic and hardest to master rotation. While this might be interpreted as a good thing, it also means a single mistake causes a much greater impact than with a more down to earth rotation (such as Affliction's, which is bloody easy in comparison).

My only gripe about this change is PvP. Surely the new talents will improve Destruction's performance in PvP, but the fact you're taking damage from your own Embers sounds like a huge hassle in PvP environments where you can't always expect someone to heal you up. On the other hand, Affliction is looking even more powerful than before with DoTs ticking twice as fast.

I believe it's still too early for any definite conclusions on these changes. It's best we wait until actual beta testing to confirm if this is a step towards a brighter future for Destruction or yet more gimping to a spec that has lost the shine it had in WotLK.

P.S.: On a side note, R.I.P. Chaos Bolt. Green fire, you will be missed. Your shitty damage, however, won't.

[endersown]

I think it sounds genius. It allows us to spend a long time building up huge amounts of potential burst. I bet soul fire is going to hit like a flipping truck. 40 seconds into an encounter, there's an add that needs to die. Build up 3 embers, and then fire off 3 huge hits onto that add. It's not a playstyle that will appeal to all (many?), but I think it is unique enough and has enough "destro" flavor to be worthwhile.

All that being said, I remember being equally excited about Cata. That didn't turn out well as I haven't been playing for more than a year now, but... I don't know. I have hope guys! I will be waiting at least 3 months after MoP releases to buy it, so I can be sure it will be worthwhile this time.

[Phoenexis]

I think it sounds genius. It allows us to spend a long time building up huge amounts of potential burst. I bet soul fire is going to hit like a flipping truck. 40 seconds into an encounter, there's an add that needs to die. Build up 3 embers, and then fire off 3 huge hits onto that add. It's not a playstyle that will appeal to all (many?), but I think it is unique enough and has enough "destro" flavor to be worthwhile.

All that being said, I remember being equally excited about Cata. That didn't turn out well as I haven't been playing for more than a year now, but... I don't know. I have hope guys! I will be waiting at least 3 months after MoP releases to buy it, so I can be sure it will be worthwhile this time.

That's what we were hoping for. However the way Blizzard is implementing it right now seems to make it look as if it were used to regenerate mana, which sucks utterly. I was expecting some kind of damage build up through incinerate (about 10 embers?), then when you couldn't handle it anymore you'd release all that powerful energy into a decimating Soul Fire. The way they put it it's about lol manaregen, which has nothing to do with warlocks. I am really disappointed

[Zinnin]

It appears I'm the only Destruction Warlock that is glad the rotation has been simplified (though perhaps more than I had expected - in my opinion, our rotation in 3.3.5 was about perfect, back when Corruption was negligible and there was no bullcrap ISF mechanic). I also don't understand what's people's big issue with switching resources, it's not like Warlocks were a class afflicted by mana problems anyway.

Personally I feel if you want a simplified rotation you can play a Mage. The only difference between ranged dps these days is the way they are played, and there are plenty of other specs and classes that are simple enough for people that hate the more complex styles.

The rotation simplification was much needed for Destruction. From all DPS classes I've played, Destruction definitely has the most chaotic and hardest to master rotation. While this might be interpreted as a good thing, it also means a single mistake causes a much greater impact than with a more down to earth rotation (such as Affliction's, which is bloody easy in comparison).

Once you do get the hang of the rotation destro has one of the most stable dps out of all specs. When I switched from primarily playing affliction to destro this tier I was amazed by just how stable the spec is. As long you make sure you keep high uptime on ISF and conflag on cd you can slip on the other things a bit and it won't effect you nearly as much as you would think.

That's what we were hoping for. However the way Blizzard is implementing it right now seems to make it look as if it were used to regenerate mana, which sucks utterly. I was expecting some kind of damage build up through incinerate (about 10 embers?), then when you couldn't handle it anymore you'd release all that powerful energy into a decimating Soul Fire. The way they put it it's about lol manaregen, which has nothing to do with warlocks. I am really disappointed

Soul Fire will be less of a way to regen mana, and more of a 'I have nothing else to do, so why not cast soul fire while waiting for more mana' Making us non-GCD locked means that we will inherent have more burst since all our damage will be more compressed into smaller windows. However would you really be willing to trade fun game play for bigger numbers?

The other huge problem I have with a non GCD-locked caster is that one of the biggest difference in skill that you can have as a caster is how well they manage their movement and lowering the dps lost by movement. If you have say, 3-4 completely open globals in a 20s window that means it takes very little skill to manage your moment, because you won't lose any dps unless you get capped on mana or embers. Basically overall it just leads to severely lowering the skill cap of warlocks.

[Xelnath]

Basically overall it just leads to severely lowering the skill cap of warlocks.

I'm pretty sure this is the point of the overhaul.

Soul Fire will be less of a way to regen mana, and more of a 'I have nothing else to do, so why not cast soul fire while waiting for more mana' Making us non-GCD locked means that we will inherent have more burst since all our damage will be more compressed into smaller windows. However would you really be willing to trade fun game play for bigger numbers?

This sounds right. You sound particularly convinced it won't feel fun though.

You are right in that a 4.5 second CD means you have to press the button every 3rd GCD, but it doesn't really apply to Warlocks. We don't have a short CD like that, and we don't play a class that functions like that

You're right - we don't have a single spell that works like that, we actually have 7 spells that work like that:

Corruption
Immolate
Unstable Corruption
Conflagrate
Shadowflame
Chaos Bolt
ISF

All of these spells demand perfect DoT clipping to obtain maximum DPS - so yes, you aren't doing it every 4.5 sec, you're doing it 7-8 times in 20-30 seconds.

---------- Post added 2012-02-24 at 06:17 PM ----------

I've not said Destruction doesn't need work, quite the opposite. Thing is, I like flaky procs;

This is a totally valid opinion.

Destruction should be avoiding long casts. Nor do I think it's a coincidence that I'm seeing people return to the class, and the Destruction spec now the T13 set bonus has been implemented to help remove those long casts.

Okay, these are pretty reasonable arguments.

---------- Post added 2012-02-24 at 06:29 PM ----------

Not really.

The interesting part about your post is that I agree with the details you put down and disagree with your conclusion. It sounds like we disagree on what qualifies as "the game playing you".

Do you think this could be personal taste?

Almost all specs in the game work similar to destruction. It's a mix of reactionary play on top of long term play.

What do you define as "long term" here? To me long-term is in the 1-2 minute scale. Most of Destruction's spells are "react to this falling off as quickly as possible".

You are right in that a 4.5 second CD means you have to press the button every 3rd GCD, but it doesn't really apply to Warlocks. We don't have a short CD like that, and we don't play a class that functions like that.

We have 3 dots, 2 short CDs, a pet, the pet/SF dot, a slow cast SF, and our filler.

If you cut out the filler, this is exactly what I'm talking about. It doesn't look like it at first, but DoTs are just 18 sec cooldowns.

wrath, where we had Immo, Conflag, Incinerate, Chaos Bolt for our main rotation. The bulk of our damage came from 4 spells, which lead to all of them feeling powerful.

Yes! I complete agree here - Destruction's DPS is SO split up between so many parallel effects that we don't feel like Big-Numbers casters. This is the thing I like the most about the MoP destruction playstyle.

In the case of Warlocks, you'll be doing damage to yourself for holding on to the embers. I like this idea, in fact, I love it. I was extremely excited when I read the first blue post about how Embers will work.

Essentially this new system is boiling down to exactly that, do your regular rotation, go oom, cast your SFs (which have to be 4 second cast times or longer), be back to nearly full mana, repeat.

You *could* just not cast the soul fires and use a low mana costing filler, then blow your Soul Fire load later when you need to.

I have to run to work, but I am enjoying this discussion.

[Zinnin]

You *could* just not cast the soul fires and use a low mana costing filler, then blow your Soul Fire load later when you need to.

I have to run to work, but I am enjoying this discussion.

I think you are missing the point where by design you will run out of mana, and the decision to not cast the soul fires and to save them, basically meaning your are casting 0 spells for an even longer period of time.

And I'm convinced that it won't be fun because I don't find spamming only one button fun, or waiting on regen fun. If I did I would play a fire mage or a feral druid.

If you want to have big numbers and higher burst then the far better way to do that is to nerf filler damage and buff burst damage instead of just completely getting rid of filler damage so its all burst. Personally I think burst in this game needs to get toned down a shit ton and instead of trying to give burst to more classes take it away, but that is something that I am pretty sure most people wouldn't agree with me on.

[Xelnath]

I think you are missing the point where by design you will run out of mana, and the decision to not cast the soul fires and to save them, basically meaning your are casting 0 spells for an even longer period of time.

And I'm convinced that it won't be fun because I don't find spamming only one button fun, or waiting on regen fun. If I did I would play a fire mage or a feral druid.

Or a rogue. These are valid reasons for not liking the new model.

How long do you imagine yourself waiting on regen? If you will always eventually run out of resources "burning yourself out" - then holding onto a soul fire or not casting incinerate while running around in a boss fight means you don't lose any throughput.

Isn't that the same as moving for 3-4 seconds while spamming lifetap, but just different?

The good point I think you're moving towards is that if you HAD to be spamming spells, that means you *can't* hold onto a soul fire. You feel that if you *must* unload them rotationally, you never get to bank them.

[Kildragon]

All of these spells demand perfect DoT clipping to obtain maximum DPS - so yes, you aren't doing it every 4.5 sec, you're doing it 7-8 times in 20-30 seconds.

That is not the same as mechanically hitting a button every 4.5 seconds. Compare a Ret Paladin and a Destro Lock. The Ret will feel like you're playing whack-a-mole on top of hitting the same button every 4 seconds. The Lock has to dynamically adjust to all of these different things going on, since none of them will ever come out to be at the exact same time, on top of reacting to procs such as instant SF, and reaction to procs such as Power Torrent or trinkets. You seem to hold the opinion that any type of dot management is static, while it is in fact quite dynamic.

What do you define as "long term" here? To me long-term is in the 1-2 minute scale. Most of Destruction's spells are "react to this falling off as quickly as possible".

With long term I mean anything that is not reactionary. The only thing that is reactionary as a Destro is your instant SF procs, and maybe reacting to trinket procs. What you're describing doesn't take place at all at a high level of play for Warlocks. Now that I finally got my legendary staff, (still running with FL trinkets though), I've been consistently getting world top 50s as Destro. I never react to my dots falling off, Conflag coming off CD, or ISF falling off. I know exactly how long my cast times are, I know exactly when my dots will fall off, essentially with each now dot or buff that I apply I keep track of when they will run out dynamically. There is no reacting to anything, there is planning 3 spells ahead to know exactly what I will do, in conjunction with boss mechanics.

If you cut out the filler, this is exactly what I'm talking about. It doesn't look like it at first, but DoTs are just 18 sec cooldowns.

I'm not entirely what sure what your point is here. By your logic you could break down every single spec in the game like this, since you seem to think Destro is quite static. I could do the same thing to our MoP rotation though. In any hard mode progression fight, as Destro you will manage your 12 sec CD conflag, your 15 sec CD Immolate, spam your Incin until you get your first ember and immediately use it, unless there is a burst phase coming up.

You *could* just not cast the soul fires and use a low mana costing filler, then blow your Soul Fire load later when you need to.

I don't think you quite understand the point we are trying to make here with the non GCD capped model. If you can always cast a filler, you are GCD capped, end of story. The info we have right now, specifically states that we will not be GCD capped. This essentially means we will have down time with nothing to hit. No low mana filler, no instant casts, nothing. If we can always hit "something" we will be GCD capped. This is what worries me, that Blizz is suggesting complete downtime in our rotation, and it makes me cringe.

How long do you imagine yourself waiting on regen? If you will always eventually run out of resources "burning yourself out" - then holding onto a soul fire or not casting incinerate while running around in a boss fight means you don't lose any throughput.

You lose less throughput while everybody is running around, true, but as soon as everybody is standing still and you go oom, you will lose throughput.

Isn't that the same as moving for 3-4 seconds while spamming lifetap, but just different?

As Destro we never use life tap as it is, we spam fel flame, a damaging ability. Judging by this new info, we will be trying to cast Fel Flame while moving, as it does extra damage due to an innate talent, and gives us embers. If we can't cast it, we will lose DPS.

The good point I think you're moving towards is that if you HAD to be spamming spells, that means you *can't* hold onto a soul fire. You feel that if you *must* unload them rotationally, you never get to bank them.

It's less about holding the SFs as you think it is. I'm pretty sure most people here like the idea of managing our embers with our soul fires. What I'm trying to say is that not casting because you CAN'T cast is not fun.