Repost to US official forums about 10% nerf please.

[Bellante_mazrigos]

Hi there,

Please read through the following and repost to the official US wow forums if you agree:

In principal I don't mind the nerfs and the increased accessibility of DS hard modes. In that sense to me, it's "just a game".

What I do mind is the pigheaded belief that "the option of turning off the 10% debuff makes whine about nerfs invalid".

That is not the case, for a very simple reason: You cannot choose to roll back to the 5% nerf. You can only choose 10% nerf or none.

Say you've been competing with a guild on your server, and they kill spine of Deathwing heroic with the 5% nerf. You look up to that guild, and feel the achievement of being able to do the kill "on the same difficulty" (discounting gear increases over time here, I know) as that other guild.

You're very close to landing the kill, and then arbitrarily, blizzard nerfs the content an additional 5%, and then argues "well, you can just turn it off if you don't like it, so suck it up".

I'm sure a lot of people recognise this as a complete fallacy, because competition is relative.

Yes, a few hard core people will argue that the real test of the difficulty is the absolute difficulty of the unnerfed content, to which I can only reply that content is hotfixed many times over the first few weeks, stuff that most guilds aren't even aware of.

The relative difficulty is really the relevant one in this entire discussion, because it makes raiders feel "less good at the game" if they didn't get their chance to kill a boss at the same difficulty as the guild(s) they compete against.

In other words, if Blizzard offered the choice of any of the previous debuff levels (0, 5%, 10%), THEN we would have nothing to whine about. Now, we just feel frustrated and irritated by the nerfs, not to mention their suddenness (1 week warning? Really?).

TLDR: Give the choice of any of the previous nerf levels (0, 5%, 10%), instead of just 0 or 10%, THEN we wouldn't mind the nerfs so much, and the possiblity of turning off the nerf would (for the first time EVER) actually become relevant.

PLEASE! Post this post to the official US forums if you agree, particularly in THIS thread:

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...t-the-ds-buff/

Thank you for reading.

[NickV]

Umm really? If you can't beat the fight without the debuff, then use the debuff. No one cares if it's 5% or 55% when you beat it. If you're competing, then why cry over getting second place with a bigger nerf? If they beat the boss already, the competition for that boss is over.

[Herecius]

Umm really? If you can't beat the fight without the debuff, then use the debuff. No one cares if it's 5% or 55% when you beat it. If you're competing, then why cry over getting second place with a bigger nerf? If they beat the boss already, the competition for that boss is over.

This makes the assumption that a server's race ends with the first kill on a boss, which it really doesn't. Server races between guilds keeps going long past that. There are a lot of guilds that get ecstatic just by being able to say 'we are on the first page of WoWprogress for the server now!' The competition definitely keeps going long past that first kill.

[KHShadowrunner]

I'm not following.

If they beat it at 5%, and you were only "close", you still lost... from a competition standpoint. If anything, waiting a week and beating it easy peasy at 10% sounds like a ripe way to make em pipin hot. Sure, they'll throw back the "you couldn't beat it at 5%", to which you have 2 choices, insult their 5% vs 0% debacle, OR, ignore ignorance considering you're talking about 10/25 people across your entire server that really has this achievement above you. Then smile because the other 95%+ of the server does not.

---------- Post added 2012-02-23 at 09:55 AM ----------

This makes the assumption that a server's race ends with the first kill on a boss, which it really doesn't. Server races between guilds keeps going long past that. There are a lot of guilds that get ecstatic just by being able to say 'we are on the first page of WoWprogress for the server now!' The competition definitely keeps going long past that first kill.

If it's about competition, they lost. Period. Someone beat them to it, and either they'll be next in line after the debuff or hey! Unbeknownst to them, there was yet another guild who was probably even closer than them to being second or third or whatever, and they beat them to it fair and square!

There's nothing about competition to this as anyone who clears it at 10% most likely was at least decently close to clearing it at 5%, it's all about pride.

[Deleted]

I don’t get it. If you have not killed him by now, then deal with it.

At this point in time, the only people who should care about this nerf are the ones who are tired of wiping in a raid for 3 months!

If you’re fighting for server first and you still do not have the kill, you still have 1 reset to go. So it is not out of reach. Just be happy you get to raid less and have more free time.

[Nigeldruid]

I don’t get it. If you have not killed him by now, then deal with it.

At this point in time, the only people who should care about this nerf are the ones who are tired of wiping in a raid for 3 months!

What about the people who don't raid a lot and therefore simply due to the time constraint and the fact that a great deal of the progression was done over christmas (where I personally didn't raid) haven't cleared it? My guild raid twice a week for 3 hours and didn't start progression on heroics until the second week of january because of christmas and exams. We're now 6/8, 5/8 before the first nerf, and wont be able to further progress on spine with the 5% buff as we've done thus far (well not taking into account the next reset). It doesn't seem to be to cater to the casuals. At least not my understanding of casual.

[darkwarrior42]

I do agree that being able to choose what level of the debuff you want would be nice. I do not feel, however, that many guilds are going to be particularly hung up on what level of the debuff they kill the boss with, or making sure they do it at the same level as another guild... I would wager that most guilds who care about details such as that would rather just prove themselves by doing it sans debuff. Still, adding the option to choose what level of debuff you want wouldn't really hurt anything, and I can't imagine it would take much development time to implement.

I do understand that some people couldn't raid/progress when the raid first came out due to real life issues, but.... well, sucks to be us? Our guild had huge scheduling issues through all of January. The advantage of a living, evolving game is that it constantly changes and lets you work with other people on content that is always current. The disadvantage is that if you're not there when stuff is new, you miss out on it being new. Compartmentalizing aspects of the server strictly for the sake of preserving the times when the old stuff was new so that new players can experience it would be neat, but a huge draw on resources. (Of course, they could still offer a choice of debuff level and achievements... but then again, offering an achievement would likely only be done for clearing the instance without the debuff at all. It would be rather silly to offer separate achievements for each level of debuff.)

I am not, however, particularly interested in reposting this on the official forums. If you're not posting there yourself, there are two possibilities:
1) You do not have an active WoW account... in which case, your opinion is far less relevant to Blizzard, since companies typically don't go out of their way to cater to people who are *not* their customers
2) You do have an active WoW account, but are forbidden to post on the forums... in which case, you did something to get yourself, banned, and are asking us to help you circumvent a forum ban, something I'm not inclined to do.

[Spikedriver]

Bigger question, what have you done on the WoW official forums to get yourself banned that you cannot post it yourself? You asking us to repost this if you agree says that you cannot do it yourself.

[Callypso]

I'm guessing he wants us to back up his complaint on the US forums?

I'm in the EU, so I can't do that anyway, but I completely agree with his statement. I'm in a 4/8 hc guild (25m) that's been inching to an Ultraxion kill (3-6% wipes) and very much capable of killing it with the 5% nerf. Yes, we DO need taht 5% nerf as we're not a topnotch guild, but 10% will just make the fight trivial. Hopefully we'll kill it this week though, but if we don't any excitement about killing it the week after will be gone.

Similarly I was hoping for a 5% Warmaster kill as well.... but alas.


I don't really get what the hurry with the nerfs is tho. As the Beta servers aren't even up yet, MoP is at least 6 months away still. So I guess we'll get another ICC where we can 'enjoy' farming the same content for 8-9 months.

[KHShadowrunner]

What about the people who don't raid a lot and therefore simply due to the time constraint and the fact that a great deal of the progression was done over christmas (where I personally didn't raid) haven't cleared it? My guild raid twice a week for 3 hours and didn't start progression on heroics until the second week of january because of christmas and exams. We're now 6/8, 5/8 before the first nerf, and wont be able to further progress on spine with the 5% buff as we've done thus far (well not taking into account the next reset). It doesn't seem to be to cater to the casuals. At least not my understanding of casual.

In your situation, which is actually very similar to ours, poll your raid. you're talking about a 5% debuff, if they truly feel that cheated by a 5% debuff, would they, instead, consider it a true challenge to instead make it 5% MORE challenging?

This debuff is going to be perfect, you'll be able to clear spine, take on the final challenge that the current content has to offer, put more things onto "farm mode" and hey, for a challenge and kick, have the spare time to go back and try T11 HM and T12 HM! Maybe start working on a new legendary staff! The buff will do nothing but benefit.

[Marema]

Don't people realize that the race has been over for months now? Raids have been nerfed since BC, they will be nerfed in MoP. That is the way of the World of Warcraft. All the whining in the world won't change that. If you want to 'compete' then you should be in a guild that is capable of competing. If you want to kill bosses pre nerf, then you need to be in a raid with people who are capable of killing bosses pre nerf. If you raid 6 hours a week, which is a pretty casual schedule, then you should be happy about getting a 10% nerf, which helps the more casual raid schedules.

I was in a guild that was top 25 US in BC. Got like US 9th or 10th Archimonde kill, and was server first. Do you know how many people sent me whispers after that happened telling me how awesome I was? 0. Do you know how many people even remember that kill? 25 (since there were 25 of us in the raid). Do you know how many of those 25 care now? 0 (I assume that the other 24 could care less nowadays, probably don't even think about it.).

You're not getting a raise from killing a boss prenerf or post nerf. You're not going to woo the chick at the bar killing a boss prenerf of post nerf. It really doesn't matter.

Nerfs are part of the game. Accept it and move on.

[KHShadowrunner]

I'm guessing he wants us to back up his complaint on the US forums?

I'm in the EU, so I can't do that anyway, but I completely agree with his statement. I'm in a 4/8 hc guild (25m) that's been inching to an Ultraxion kill (3-6% wipes) and very much capable of killing it with the 5% nerf. Yes, we DO need taht 5% nerf as we're not a topnotch guild, but 10% will just make the fight trivial. Hopefully we'll kill it this week though, but if we don't any excitement about killing it the week after will be gone.

Similarly I was hoping for a 5% Warmaster kill as well.... but alas.


I don't really get what the hurry with the nerfs is tho. As the Beta servers aren't even up yet, MoP is at least 6 months away still. So I guess we'll get another ICC where we can 'enjoy' farming the same content for 8-9 months.

It's all good, if you really want a challenge, clear Ultrax, Blackhorn, and Spine on 10% and then... for the thrill and the challenge, turn the buff off and try the true Ultrax/Blackhorn/Spine a go with better gear! I'm willing to bet though, that in all honesty once the 10% hits, you'll be thanking that you don't have to spend so long on a fight anymore and instead, will be focusing on the next hardest challenge (or a shorter night of effort ...)

[Deleted]

Ppl are free to use flying mount or not in the open world .
Same rules aply with this buff

[Bellante_mazrigos]

I don’t get it. If you have not killed him by now, then deal with it.

At this point in time, the only people who should care about this nerf are the ones who are tired of wiping in a raid for 3 months!

If you’re fighting for server first and you still do not have the kill, you still have 1 reset to go. So it is not out of reach. Just be happy you get to raid less and have more free time.

Regarding the "you lost if you didnt make it, deal with it": I understand your point, but you missed the premise of my OP.

My premise was this: "I would like to compare my own ability on the SAME difficulty as my hero guild, who killed it faster than me".

The premise was NOT "OMG I NEED TO WIN THE COMPETITION". That would entirely defeat the point of worrying about the possiblity of removing the debuff, or selecting a certain level of the debuff, since the TIMING of the kill would be all that mattered. In short, your point is not my point

Bigger question, what have you done on the WoW official forums to get yourself banned that you cannot post it yourself? You asking us to repost this if you agree says that you cannot do it yourself.

I'm European, can't post on US forums, which is (perhaps just subjectively) believed to be the main board to get proper blue's attention.


Why do I care about all this? Because I've always raided as "casual hardcore", typically 2-3 days a week for 6 years. All of cataclysm has been appr. 8 hours a week, spread unto 2 nights a week. We killed Rag Hc post-the-first-nerf, but before the p4 nerf. We're 7/8 hc now on just 8 hours a week, something I'm proud of, but that I absolutely do not care to think of as "competing with anyone else". I care about CHALLENGING myself. I have absolutely no doubt that my team would be able to kill more or less anything at whatever point in time that anyone I compare ourselves to are able to, if not for one factor: Time. We simply do not have (and do not want to have) the time investment necessary to put in, say, another night or two a week.

But I would certainly like to keep the ONE lasting thing in this game (now that cross-tier progression, as eloquently argued elsewhere, is pointless pre-firelands heroic) which is the ACTUAL difficulty of the fights, and choosing to COMPARE yourselves to your mates is what's interesting, thus my request to be able to choose 5%. I like to challenge myself, to do as well as "the other guys", because I now we do not have the time to compete on the timing of kills, only on difficulty (which is what I call challenging myself, I guess you get the point by now).

An analogy: Who cares if you can dead-lift 200 kilos, if you don't know if it's a lot or a little (no, I don't do heavy weights ). It's cool to lift 200 kilos if everyone else in the world is able to lift 150. It's cool to ACHIEVE 200 kilos if whomever you look up to is able to lift 200 kilos as well.

Did you manage to lift 200 kilos before this person? No, and it doesn't matter. What matters is your sense of achievement, not SOMEONE ELSE'S sense of your achievement.

It should be fairly obvious to most people now what I mean. Whether or not you CARE is fine with me, but it's logically impossible to argue that my request fails "because only competition matters". If anyone posts any more arguments like that, I kindly ask you to actually read the thread, as it's clearly shown that such an argument is missing the point.

[soulkeeperx]

The 'option' of turning is off really just an illusion of choice. If you're a guild that's already cleared it all on heroic, why would you want to turn it off? You cleared it before the nerf, at that point it's all farm content that you want to get through as quickly as possible.

If you're struggling with a boss, you're gonna leave the buff on, because at that point your guild is frustrated and just want to see it dead so you can move on.

The whole, "Oh, you can turn it off if you don't like it!" is just stupid

[Mad_Murdock]

I agree that it would be nice if we could pick the level of nerf applied. Probably more trouble than it's worth, since the population that these nerfs are aimed at probbaly can't wait for the 15% nerf. I noticed on my server, that some of the guilds that did pretty decent in Firelands, aren't even trying anything but Heroic Morchok.

I myself at at the burnout stage, next week is 10% and that will probably get us over a few humps, but it's not longer interesting to me to even try. Now we're just entering into cruise mode. The only thing that annoys me, is that there will be players that have the balls to go into trade chat and talk about how LOLZ Dragon Soul is when it gets to the 20-30% nerfs and continue on with how "IT WAS NEVER HARD IF PEOPLE AREN'T RETARDED LOLZ". This will be the people who didn't even make 8/8 normal mode before the first nerf. I even saw folks in Wrath that were only 5/12N with the 30% nerf talking about how the game was "SO EASY"

But back on topic, yes, being able to choose the level of nerf would be better. and sure it's more fun to say we did it at 0% or 5% to our competing guilds. But that's an option, I expect we'll get.