GW2 Thief Discussion

[Glytch]

That's irrelevant/subjective.

ok, what can you really do during 3.3 s? 2 init moves and your chain skill at best?

assuming you've pooled up a respectable amount of init

thats far less you can act on than a 10s boon

thats where modeling a 10s random boon down to a 3.3 average breaks down, mathematically its the same but practically it isnt

in WoW yea, its worth doing because you're trying to find an average to weigh DPS on, but in gw2 the actual effects matter more

[DrakeWurrum]

in WoW yea, its worth doing because you're trying to find an average to weigh DPS on, but in gw2 the actual effects matter more

Statements like this suggest that damage doesn't matter much in GW2, or that damage is the only thing that matters in WoW.

Both are inaccurate. A lot of specs in WoW will sacrifice DPS for specific survival mechanics.

[Glytch]

Statements like this suggest that damage doesn't matter much in GW2, or that damage is the only thing that matters in WoW.

Both are inaccurate. A lot of specs in WoW will sacrifice DPS for specific survival mechanics.

a spec only sacrifices DPS for soemthign else in 3 situations

1) fight specific mechanic- completing the encounter or using a mechanic that only applies to the fight to take advantage of a gimmick (sub rogues speccing to sub for V&T heroic twilight realm or blade flurrying on cleave fights)

2) when the survival allows you to game the mechanics to allow you to keep damage time up (cloak of shadows during a boss spell so you dont have to run out allowing increased target time that outweighs the GCD you used. see also: feint)

3) you have no fucking clue whats goign on with the game

also the statement suggests that context of the situations matters far more than in gw2, that you cant just playwith numbers in a vacuum like in wow.

[DrakeWurrum]

a spec only sacrifices DPS for soemthign else in 3 situations

1) fight specific mechanic- completing the encounter or using a mechanic that only applies to the fight to take advantage of a gimmick (sub rogues speccing to sub for V&T heroic twilight realm or blade flurrying on cleave fights)

2) when the survival allows you to game the mechanics to allow you to keep damage time up (cloak of shadows during a boss spell so you dont have to run out allowing increased target time that outweighs the GCD you used. see also: feint)

3) you have no fucking clue whats goign on with the game

also the statement suggests that context of the situations matters far more than in gw2, that you cant just playwith numbers in a vacuum like in wow.

You can't play with the numbers in a vacuum in WoW. That's just plain ignorant. Yeah, sure, you have your "Patchwerk" fights, and for those fights all that will matter are the numbers, but what you fail to see is how rare a Patchwerk fight actually is, relative to the more mobility/mechanic-heavy fights.

In a raid environment, on a non-farm fight (including fights that you're downing for the second/third time and haven't yet mastered), DPS is the LEAST worry of the entire raid. And yet the people who do these raids before most other people do are the people behind ALL the DPS theorycrafting in WoW, that everybody else follows mindlessly.

I guess if you're in LFR you can worry about DPS and nothing else, but WoW =/= LFR.


To use your own argument against you fully: GW2, supposedly, will 100% of the time fall under #1. You can still theorycraft optimal DPS builds and attack combinations, you just have to take mobility and defense more into account than you would in a Patchwerk style fight.
I suppose I should mention that the strategy behind even Morchok and Yor'sahj are more complex than "lol do your rotation!"

[Glytch]

You can't play with the numbers in a vacuum in WoW. That's just plain ignorant. Yeah, sure, you have your "Patchwerk" fights, and for those fights all that will matter are the numbers, but what you fail to see is how rare a Patchwerk fight actually is, relative to the more mobility/mechanic-heavy fights.

In a raid environment, on a non-farm fight (including fights that you're downing for the second/third time and haven't yet mastered), DPS is the LEAST worry of the entire raid. And yet the people who do these raids before most other people do are the people behind ALL the DPS theorycrafting in WoW, that everybody else follows mindlessly.

I guess if you're in LFR you can worry about DPS and nothing else, but WoW =/= LFR.


To use your own argument against you fully: GW2, supposedly, will 100% of the time fall under #1. You can still theorycraft optimal DPS builds and attack combinations, you just have to take mobility and defense more into account than you would in a Patchwerk style fight.
I suppose I should mention that the strategy behind even Morchok and Yor'sahj are more complex than "lol do your rotation!"

the variance of the mechanics is so slight in wow that numbers in a vacuum suit the purpose for the vast vast majority of all boss encounters. the 2 biggest factors are time moving (that is, using your non optimal rotation, which even THAT can be converted into a model and used with the proportion of an estimate of uptime and downtime, if you are expected to be in "dps mode 70% of the time and "move mode" 30% of the time thats merely a couple of extra calculations) and frequency of target switching. other than that the game literally is at a high level view, a game of red light green. at worst raw theoretical numbers translate well into actual numbers

o, and dont bother explaining how heroic fights work in wow, im quite familiar

QUITE familiar

[DrakeWurrum]

the variance of the mechanics is so slight in wow that numbers in a vacuum suit the purpose for the vast vast majority of all boss encounters. the 2 biggest factors are time moving (that is, using your non optimal rotation, which even THAT can be converted into a model and used with the proportion of an estimate of uptime and downtime, if you are expected to be in "dps mode 70% of the time and "move mode" 30% of the time thats merely a couple of extra calculations) and frequency of target switching. other than that the game literally is at a high level view, a game of red light green. at worst raw theoretical numbers translate well into actual numbers

So you're operating under the assumption that it's not slight in GW2. Kinda funny. When I fought some champion "destroyer" harpy in Kessex Hill with like 5-6 other people, I spent most of my time not being attacked and worrying about DPS and only dps. Then I'd get focused, dodge once or twice, and yet... wait a minute...

I was casting while moving. Funny how that worked out... I kept focusing on DPSing while also strafing and occasionally dodging.

It's not at all impossible to theorycraft maximized/optimal DPS scenarios for GW2 combat. Not in the slightest. You're over-estimating the GW2 combat here.

[Glytch]

So you're operating under the assumption that it's not slight in GW2. Kinda funny. When I fought some giant "destroyer" harpy in Kessex Hill with like 5-6 other people, I spent most of my time not being attacked and worrying about DPS and only dps. Then I'd get focused, dodge once or twice, and yet... wait a minute...

I was casting while moving. Funny how that worked out... I kept focusing on DPSing while also strafing and occasionally dodging.

im sure that'll get you through an explorable

[DrakeWurrum]

im sure that'll get you through an explorable

Well, you can stick to auto-attacking, and I'll worry about shortening my runs while still not letting people die.

[Glytch]

Well, you can stick to auto-attacking, and I'll worry about shortening my runs while still not letting people die.

ok, you're just acting silly


ill wait a few hours until you're out of "argue for the sake of argument mode"

[DrakeWurrum]

ok, you're just acting silly

Your statement was just as silly, you realize.

[Glytch]

Yeah Sy, have to agree with Glytch here... you're over-thinking it. :P

this post looks familiar

why are we even arguing again, you did kind of agree with me earlier on the exact same subject (breakign the trait down like that is too far)

i mean, im all for people changing their minds, so long as they have a good reason for wanting to change their mind

[DrakeWurrum]

At the time, you were actually looking at the math/mechanics behind it. Sy was "over-thinking" the randomness, to be precise.

[Glytch]

At the time, you were actually looking at the math behind it. Sy was "over-thinking" the randomness, to be precise.

im still arguing the exact same thing

i never changed my mind about it

[Sy]

in theory yes, in practice thats not the case

no shit? :I

that's why it's called theorycrafting. of course it's just like that in theory, but it nevertheless helps to compare the 'average power' of two different mechanics. besides, it beeing randomly 10sec instead of always 3.3 is actually a potential disadvantage, rather than something that makes it better (again, for skilled players at least. if you mash your buttons without planning things like when to use swiftness to evade/kite and when to use fury to burst, then it obviously won't matter. but if i wanna do that, why play thief in the first place?).

Yeah Sy, have to agree with Glytch here... you're over-thinking it. :P

don't think so :P

I trust my instincts based on the feel of the mechanic. Typically I've found this to be an accurate indicator of later conclusions. Not always, just most of the time.

same for me
and my feeling tells me "yeah, no, bad. not a good idea" :P
and so do the (yes, theoretical) numbers. but of course everything discussed now is mostly just because we are all bored as hell and so eager to do gw2 stuff, while we wait for release, knowing that a lot will change until that anyway -.-^^

well you cant really go and distill mechanics down to raw number models in gw2

no. theorycrafting is never intended to tell you exactly which is 'better' and how much. but they help comparing things on the bigger scale, and are more often accurate in their sugguestions than not.

I'm trying to approach this game in such a way that I'm not doing any number crunching and just having fun... Sadly, I've said that before and always I capitulate and crunch some numbers. Damn my weak willed desire to do math!!

i personally really enjoy the "number crunching" and softcore-theorycrafting!
i do that all the time, often even subconsciously, while playing or looking at talent build tools and stuff like that.

thats not the same as turning the entire game into a giant mathematical model you can base a simulation program off of

agreed.

Where the math becomes almost impossible is when you get allies involved, but it should be obvious that getting a few seconds of all three onto all 5 members of your team would yield overall better results for the whole group, even if it's not as much for you personally.

the numbers say you already have and advantage of at least +100% when with ONE ally. sure, that might depend a lot on the ally and situations, but i think it's pretty save saying that TotC is no-brainer-ish the better choice from at least two allies upwards.

ok, what can you really do during 3.3 s?

uuuhm.. you do realize thief is (usually) a burst class, right? i'm preeeetty sure that having fury AND might AND swiftness for one Backstab and low-hp heartseaker is better than having randomly one of those three for the two skills plus ~6.7 of 1-slot or other not-as-high-damage-moves and waiting for initiative in between.

i don't really know how that seems to be even arguable to so many people here o_O
it is just plain better. it is in the numbers, it is in practise. the only situation where it's not is if you are very lucky -- and basing a build on luck is generally a very bad idea, no matter what your feeling tells you^^

[DrakeWurrum]

uuuhm.. you do realize thief is (usually) a burst class, right? i'm preeeetty sure that having fury AND might AND swiftness for one Backstab and low-hp heartseaker is better than having randomly one of those three for the two skills plus ~6.7 of 1-slot or other not-as-high-damage-moves and waiting for initiative in between.

i don't really know how that seems to be even arguable to so many people here o_O
it is just plain better. it is in the numbers, it is in practise. the only situation where it's not is if you are very lucky -- and basing a build on luck is generally a very bad idea, no matter what your feeling tells you^^

It IS arguable that a Thief that unloads ALL his initiative in 10 seconds (not just using Backstab, but also using LPD and Heartseeker to seal the deal) would make better use of Bountiful Theft. Whereas one that likes to rely on Backstab and sparingly use Initiative (i.e. a Thief that cares about Lead Attacks and First Strikes) would benefit more from Thrill of the Crime while also being more helpful to a team?

Maybe not. Hard to say.

[Sy]

It IS arguable that a Thief that unloads ALL his initiative in 10 seconds (not just using Backstab, but also using LPD and Heartseeker to seal the deal) would make better use of Bountiful Theft. Whereas one that likes to rely on Backstab and sparingly use Initiative (i.e. a Thief that cares about Lead Attacks and First Strikes) would benefit more from Thrill of the Crime while also being more helpful to a team?

Maybe not. Hard to say.

true, but even without these talents, that would mean you have to have full initiative every time when making use of BT. besides, i'm pretty sure you can blow 12 initiative easily in like 3-5sec, leaving you at another 5-7sec with the buff but without high damage.

ofc there are initiative regenerators, like RfI, but if you need to have and use all that for this, it makes your build very clunky and fixated, while flexible builds are usually better (especially in gw2).
i can't see it beeing a problem having enough initiative for one or two Heartseakers though, every time you get the buff, even without the need of additional regenerators that can then be used in a variety of situations.

so with the current numbers we are guessing, i just can't see a reason to ever use BT over TotC -- which would be a pretty stupid design. i guess either it's way less than 2-3sec for TotC, or we will see quite some balance changes here

[Loaf Lord]

You're all nerds, end of story.

[Sy]

you're all nerds, end of story. :d

NO U! /caps

[Bluedragonwolf]

same for me
and my feeling tells me "yeah, no, bad. not a good idea" :P
and so do the (yes, theoretical) numbers. but of course everything discussed now is mostly just because we are all bored as hell and so eager to do gw2 stuff, while we wait for release, knowing that a lot will change until that anyway -.-^^

This is too true. I am hoping D3 will take some of that away; well and my SC2 play. OH and work, if business picks up a bit I can probably get a few more hours put in there so I can hopefully get some extra time off when GW2 releases.

i personally really enjoy the "number crunching" and softcore-theorycrafting!
i do that all the time, often even subconsciously, while playing or looking at talent build tools and stuff like that.

Sometimes I enjoy it. But, unless I'm having a tough time figuring out whether 2 things have synergy I typically will just stay away. Although with GW2, the sheer number of different trait combinations along with the differing weapon combos...

the numbers say you already have and advantage of at least +100% when with ONE ally. sure, that might depend a lot on the ally and situations, but i think it's pretty save saying that TotC is no-brainer-ish the better choice from at least two allies upwards.

Agreed. 2+ allies and it's a no-brainer for sure.

true, but even without these talents, that would mean you have to have full initiative every time when making use of BT. besides, i'm pretty sure you can blow 12 initiative easily in like 3-5sec, leaving you at another 5-7sec with the buff but without high damage.

ofc there are initiative regenerators, like RfI, but if you need to have and use all that for this, it makes your build very clunky and fixated, while flexible builds are usually better (especially in gw2).
i can't see it beeing a problem having enough initiative for one or two Heartseakers though, every time you get the buff, even without the need of additional regenerators that can then be used in a variety of situations.

so with the current numbers we are guessing, i just can't see a reason to ever use BT over TotC -- which would be a pretty stupid design. i guess either it's way less than 2-3sec for TotC, or we will see quite some balance changes here

And here I've always been thinking of the trait in terms of Sword/dagger + Shortbow or Sword/pistol + Shortbow. I might be willing to agree with you Sy if you are going for a good burst build. You can get rid of 12 Init, although we should be saying 15 if we're talking these 2 traits in particular, really, quite fast. However, I myself played a lot of sword/dagger over the BWE in PvP. Bountiful with this setup felt stronger to me in a 1v1, 1v2 situation, with a strong movement/shadowstepping type build.

Of course, again, anytime I had plans to travel with 2+ I switched over to Thrill. And sometimes with 1 other ally as well, depending on what I was testing out.

[Deleted]

Of course, again, anytime I had plans to travel with 2+ I switched over to Thrill. And sometimes with 1 other ally as well, depending on what I was testing out.

And that's the beauty of it!
It's a brilliant system, being able to swap traits without respeccing. You can have "selfish" traits when soloing and swapping to traits that help your group when grouping with others. I love it!