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  1. #201
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Fully agreeing with zito tbh. I love the illusions idea, but they made it entirely too obvious which one is the real one. I wouldn't expect them to have as much HP as the real Mesmer, but they should have way more than they did in the press beta.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  2. #202
    Zito-- So you want the clones to act like real players so people attack them and you want them to have a much larger health pool? To me that sounds a little OP..

    Right now the Mesmer has a ton of abilities that summon and make he opponent detarget them. It basically makes them unhittable for 2-3 seconds. That is pretty good if you ask me. I don't think the clones were meant to be something for a player to debate for 20 seconds on which is which. I think they are a class mechanic where an opponent must decide on whether to waste 4-5 seconds and kill one clone or go after the Mesmer and let the clone do his thing.

    I'm not sure if you have seen Taprepeatingly's Mesmer video but he is very good and makes he class look great! It will be a fun time playin a Mesmer no matter what.

  3. #203
    Why should you wait for the player to start killing your clone before you react? If they're going anywhere near them, you can kill them yourself. No AoE should have the ability to do the burst damage it takes to kill a clone instantly. And from the PVP videos I've seen, no AoE does. Forcing the opponent to switch to your clone is a tactical advantage, don't forget that and I won't have to reiterate that point.

    Now about your bolded statement even if that's true there's many ways you can deceive the enemy. Don't like the idea of invisibility? That's too bad you can't see how powerful this really is in a pinch. I don't see it as a lazy mechanic design and how you came to that conclusion. Mesmers are meant to deceive what's more deceptive than not being able to see the Mesmer? Isn't that the beautiful picture Anet has painted for us of what the Mesmer is?

    We're back to nothing your points are redundant and you're failing to see the potential in the class. I don't know who Zexion is but if you're self proclaiming yourself as GW2 most power Mesmer, I weep for us all.

  4. #204
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valek View Post
    Right now the Mesmer has a ton of abilities that summon and make he opponent detarget them. It basically makes them unhittable for 2-3 seconds.
    Summoning illusions does not force an opponent to de-target you. The only one that does this is Decoy, specifically because it stealths you for a VERY short duration.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-03 at 10:52 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Why should you wait for the player to start killing your clone before you react? If they're going anywhere near them, you can kill them yourself. No AoE should have the ability to do the burst damage it takes to kill a clone instantly. And from the PVP videos I've seen, no AoE does. Forcing the opponent to switch to your clone is a tactical advantage, don't forget that and I won't have to reiterate that point.

    Now about your bolded statement even if that's true there's many ways you can deceive the enemy. Don't like the idea of invisibility? That's too bad you can't see how powerful this really is in a pinch. I don't see it as a lazy mechanic design and how you came to that conclusion. Mesmers are meant to deceive what's more deceptive than not being able to see the Mesmer? Isn't that the beautiful picture Anet has painted for us of what the Mesmer is?

    We're back to nothing your points are redundant and you're failing to see the potential in the class. I don't know who Zexion is but if you're self proclaiming yourself as GW2 most power Mesmer, I weep for us all.
    There's nothing wrong with the Mesmer having stealth abilities.

    The problem is that the Mesmer does absolutely no deceiving with his illusions.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    There's nothing wrong with the Mesmer having stealth abilities.

    The problem is that the Mesmer does absolutely no deceiving with his illusions.
    You've gotta give the press some slack. They didn't have nearly enough time to play with the class to fully utilize it's capabilities and I doubt any of them really done research on the trait lines. A skilled Mesmer, imo of course, can pull it off. That's what pulled me to this class in the first place, the skill level and learning curve is just too high for a lot of people. I like the challenge is all nobody said it was going to be a cake walk. That's warrior >.>

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Valek View Post
    Zito-- So you want the clones to act like real players so people attack them and you want them to have a much larger health pool? To me that sounds a little OP..

    Right now the Mesmer has a ton of abilities that summon and make he opponent detarget them. It basically makes them unhittable for 2-3 seconds. That is pretty good if you ask me. I don't think the clones were meant to be something for a player to debate for 20 seconds on which is which. I think they are a class mechanic where an opponent must decide on whether to waste 4-5 seconds and kill one clone or go after the Mesmer and let the clone do his thing.

    I'm not sure if you have seen Taprepeatingly's Mesmer video but he is very good and makes he class look great! It will be a fun time playin a Mesmer no matter what.
    It doesn't make them un hittable. That's an over exaggeration. I also did not say they should act like real players, but they need to be more responsive so the slightest movement you do won't give you away.

    You are limited to 3 clones and phantasms. Phantasms are stronger, more obvious and have more hp and are suppose to do significant damage. Why should they be on the limiter? You don't want to shatter them and they don't cause confusion. They shouldn't be limited with clones, but separately imo.

    3 clones and 2 phantasms out is fair.

    Why should you wait for the player to start killing your clone before you react? If they're going anywhere near them, you can kill them yourself.
    To deceive them, blowing them up before anything happens just makes you stand out more. They also run to your target before they explode when you shatter them.

    No AoE should have the ability to do the burst damage it takes to kill a clone instantly. And from the PVP videos I've seen, no AoE does. Forcing the opponent to switch to your clone is a tactical advantage, don't forget that and I won't have to reiterate that point.
    It's a tactical advantage only if it last long enough, which it doesn't unless you gain some distance. I have not seen a video where a person is trying to aoe a clone, but from what Anet claims its the mesmer counter.

    Now about your bolded statement even if that's true there's many ways you can deceive the enemy. Don't like the idea of invisibility? That's too bad you can't see how powerful this really is in a pinch. I don't see it as a lazy mechanic design and how you came to that conclusion. Mesmers are meant to deceive what's more deceptive than not being able to see the Mesmer? Isn't that the beautiful picture Anet has painted for us of what the Mesmer is?
    You missed my point again. I am not saying I dislike invisibility I think its a good mechanic. What I don't like is that it feels like they gave us so many of them to make clones feel more deceptive instead of fixing clones in the first place, thus lazy mechanic.
    We're back to nothing your points are redundant and you're failing to see the potential in the class. I don't know who Zexion is but if you're self proclaiming yourself as GW2 most power Mesmer, I weep for us all.
    Who said I was zexion? It's a RP thing. Don't make personal attacks.

    My points are redundant because you keep failing to see them. I see the potential of the class. There are issues limiting that potential you fail to see and for some reason keep defending those issues for no real reason.

    A skilled Mesmer, imo of course, can pull it off
    You need to think of the average player.
    Last edited by zito; 2012-03-03 at 05:02 PM.
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  7. #207
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    You've gotta give the press some slack. They didn't have nearly enough time to play with the class to fully utilize it's capabilities and I doubt any of them really done research on the trait lines. A skilled Mesmer, imo of course, can pull it off. That's what pulled me to this class in the first place, the skill level and learning curve is just too high for a lot of people. I like the challenge is all nobody said it was going to be a cake walk. That's warrior >.>
    Illusionary clones shouldn't require you to jump through rings lit on fire in order to make them capable of deceiving the enemy - they should be good on their own.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    To deceive them, blowing them up before anything happens just makes you stand out more. They also run to your target before they explode when you shatter them.
    If they're already headed in the direction of your clones what are your options? Stand around and do nothing while they blow up your clone? Obviously you'll want to shatter them when they're in range.. Twitch combat is what PVP is all about

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    It's a tactical advantage only if it last long enough, which it doesn't unless you gain some distance. I have not seen a video where a person is trying to aoe a clone, but from what Anet claims its the mesmer counter.
    Here we go again. WRONG. It's a tactical advantage because you're FORCING them to use an ability. You're FORCING them to switch target while you get more clones up. You're FORCING them to make choices and hopefully mistakes. Are you seeing the picture here or do I have to hold your hand through everything? Sure it might be a slight advantage considering how easy it is to kill clones but Mesmers do not lack in the clone production department. AoEing still forces them to do something that ultimately could have been dealt to you, remember that.

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    You missed my point again. I am not saying I dislike invisibility I think its a good mechanic. What I don't like is that it feels like they gave us so many of them to make clones feel more deceptive instead of fixing clones in the first place, thus lazy mechanic.
    Sorry your vagueness with "the point" made me uncertain. They gave us 3. The only "spammable" one is Prestige with the Torch at 20sec CD. While I do agree fixing the AI would greatly help the Mesmer class it's not entirely necessary. It's laziness on our part not learning how to take advantage of the capabilities of the class, not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Who said I was zexion? It's a RP thing. Don't make personal attacks.
    Are you Zexion? If so, I apologize.

  9. #209
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Here we go again. WRONG. It's a tactical advantage because you're FORCING them to use an ability. You're FORCING them to switch target while you get more clones up. You're FORCING them to make choices and hopefully mistakes. Are you seeing the picture here or do I have to hold your hand through everything? Sure it might be a slight advantage considering how easy it is to kill clones but Mesmers do not lack in the clone production department. AoEing still forces them to do something that ultimately could have been dealt to you, remember that.
    The same thing was said about Shaman totems in WoW, and they're currently one of, if not THE, least desired PvP classes in ANY rated PvP environment, assuming you are Ele or Enhance. Forcing a target switch for an ability or two is not so good as you make it out to be.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-03 at 11:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    It's laziness on our part not learning how to take advantage of the capabilities of the class, not the other way around.
    The capabilities of the class are being limited by shoddy mechanics.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    The same thing was said about Shaman totems in WoW.
    Stopped caring. Your argument is now invalid.

  11. #211
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    Stopped caring. Your argument is now invalid.
    It does not make it invalid at all. It's an example of the EXACT situation you describe, in a game that is extremely "twitch" pvp, giving absolutely no advantage to the owner of said easily-destroyed pets.

    You can hate on WoW all you want, it's a perfect example of why your logic is invalid, as it is actual PROOF that forcing a target switch for a few seconds does nothing.

    Inb4 you bring up macros: they broke totem-killing macros.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  12. #212
    If they're already headed in the direction of your clones what are your options? Stand around and do nothing while they blow up your clone? Obviously you'll want to shatter them when they're in range.. Twitch combat is what PVP is all about
    You act like you have time to place a clone at point B move far away to point C and believe your foe won't notice unless you use invisibility which you might have or may not have.

    Here we go again. WRONG. It's a tactical advantage because you're FORCING them to use an ability. You're FORCING them to switch target while you get more clones up. You're FORCING them to make choices and hopefully mistakes. Are you seeing the picture here or do I have to hold your hand through everything? Sure it might be a slight advantage considering how easy it is to kill clones but Mesmers do not lack in the clone production department. AoEing still forces them to do something that ultimately could have been dealt to you, remember that.
    The shortest clone producer cd is 8 seconds. I hope that 1 spam attack bought you enough time. My whole point with clone hp is to make more uses out of it. Ok now your clone died to bad you couldn't of made more use out of it but hey at least that 1 spam attack was avoided now lets wait 20 seconds to summon another.

    /rolls eyes

    Sorry your vagueness with "the point" made me uncertain. They gave us 3. The only "spammable" one is Prestige with the Torch at 20sec CD. While I do agree fixing the AI would greatly help the Mesmer class it's not entirely necessary. It's laziness on our part not learning how to take advantage of the capabilities of the class, not the other way around.
    Forcing mesmers to take invisibility to improve AI deception is a lazy design. Without it, they would have to improve clone responsiveness. Sorry you can't read in between the lines. Improving it is necessary.
    Are you Zexion? If so, I apologize.
    Personal attacks over different views make you more desperate honey.

    Stopped caring. Your argument is now invalid.
    Notsureifserious

    Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing
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  13. #213
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    The shortest clone producer cd is 8 seconds. I hope that 1 spam attack bought you enough time. My whole point with clone hp is to make more uses out of it. Ok now your clone died to bad you couldn't of made more use out of it but hey at least that 1 spam attack was avoided now lets wait 20 seconds to summon another.

    /rolls eyes
    This right here is exactly why I brought up totem-killing in WoW.
    Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-03-03 at 05:30 PM.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  14. #214
    What bugs me the most, is that it seems the professions will be a little too illusion heavy than I would like.

    I still like the feel of The Mesmer it's just I would like to play one that isn't just about illusions illusions- shatter shatter, having a more of direct control of my damage is much more appealing. Even with the Greatsword you have only two damaging abilities and one that you will only use to get enemies off you.

    Scepter's Ether Bolt is a good example, you do some damage and after three hits you make an illusion. More of that please.
    Last edited by Eternal Champion; 2012-03-03 at 05:46 PM.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Eternal Champion View Post
    What bugs me the most, is that it seems the professions will be a little too illusion heavy than I would like.

    I still like the feel of The Mesmer it's just I would like to play one that isn't just about illusions illusions- shatter shatter, having a more of direct control of my damage is much more appealing. Even with the Greatsword you have only two damaging abilities and one that you will only use to get enemies off you.

    Scepter's Ether Bolt is a good example, you do some damage and after three hits you make an illusion. More of that please.
    this!
    I love the way the mesmer seems to pan out in GW2 but I would like some way of playing it more like the GW1 mesmer, I miss spells like Wastrel's Worry or Wastrel's Demise, Powerblock, confusion.
    Still completely sold on the mesmer tho.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    You act like you have time to place a clone at point B move far away to point C and believe your foe won't notice unless you use invisibility which you might have or may not have.
    And you act like teleport, rolls, invisibility are trivial and shouldn't be used. I don't think you fully explored the class TBPH

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    The shortest clone producer cd is 8 seconds. I hope that 1 spam attack bought you enough time. My whole point with clone hp is to make more uses out of it. Ok now your clone died to bad you couldn't of made more use out of it but hey at least that 1 spam attack was avoided now lets wait 20 seconds to summon another.
    Scepter's 1 ability is even shorter than 8 seconds, which is already short enough. What do you want, instantaneous with no CD? /rolls eyes

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Forcing mesmers to take invisibility to improve AI deception is a lazy design. Without it, they would have to improve clone responsiveness. Sorry you can't read in between the lines. Improving it is necessary.
    It's not necessary you'll just have to adapt to the mechanics and improvise when the need arises. I'm aware the skill cap is so high if you're not up to the challenge maybe this isn't the class for you

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Personal attacks over different views make you more desperate honey.
    Honey, I even apologize what more do you want?

    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Notsureifserious

    Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing
    That's WoW. This is GW2. Why are we even having this discussion lol Clones =/= Totems. Killing them or leaving them behind has some serious ramifications depending how you spec.

    Can we just agree that none of us has actually tried to the class? I know a lot can be said about videos we've seen and information that's already out but I'd like to believe people just suck at the class D: Wait till the game is out and you can prove me wrong all you like. I welcome the good PVP videos you can come up with Honey cakes

  17. #217
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nighties View Post
    That's WoW. This is GW2. Why are we even having this discussion lol Clones =/= Totems.
    You're, again, missing the point. GW2 doesn't have to be WoW for my point to be true. The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no benefit to your enemy "wasting" a spam ability or a single GCD or even two.
    I sat back and watched the totem mechanic become extremely lackluster, I'm not going to sit back and watch illusions become lackluster too.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  18. #218
    something about the Mesmer...seems so mesmerizing... :P

    All jokes aside this is going to be a fun profession to play

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    You're, again, missing the point. GW2 doesn't have to be WoW for my point to be true. The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no benefit to your enemy "wasting" a spam ability or a single GCD or even two.
    I sat back and watched the totem mechanic become extremely lackluster, I'm not going to sit back and watch illusions become lackluster too.
    Killing a clone will require more than a basic auto attack, just so we're clear. They have a little more HP than that. This also includes AOE's. Anything else, has a higher CD. If they use an ability on your clone, that spell will go on cooldown and therefor your health will be safe from that attack and it's conditions.

    If, however, they choose not to waste that CD on your clone and infact direct it at you, you may shatter your clones (since some do rush towards your opponent), crippling them. While they're still alive they'll also be attacking, buffing and healing. All good things.

    Starting to see the benefit of wasting the enemies time?

    Not to mention Totems never looked like Shamans. The mechanics are totally different that's why I said your argument was invalid. I see your point that they're both limited by their AI but clones have so much more potential in terms of mind games.

    Also aren't they changing shamans totems come Mists?

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    You're, again, missing the point. GW2 doesn't have to be WoW for my point to be true. The simple fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no benefit to your enemy "wasting" a spam ability or a single GCD or even two.
    I sat back and watched the totem mechanic become extremely lackluster, I'm not going to sit back and watch illusions become lackluster too.
    I get your analogy, but these really aren't like totems. There is a benefit to killing these. Clones do some respectable damage--each clone doing about 1/3 of your auto attacks damage. It really depends on the weapon, but in a beta pvp video, I saw some doing as much as 250 a hit. Three clones hitting you for a total of 750 isn't something you should just ignore with an ~18k health pool. Killing the clones also denies the mesmer from using their shatters which are VERY powerful, but you would never know that based on these press pvp videos because no one ever uses them /rolls eyes. Mind wrack does about 500-600 damage per clone as AOE damage or AOE stun. If you see a bunch of mesmers running towards you all of the sudden, you better start dodging back and using an aoe.

    Plus, in large group fights, they can really clutter up the field. Even watching it was hard to follow what was going on sometimes :P
    Can't spell 'NICE BALANCE' without Ice Lance.

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