PvP Discussion for recent Dev Watercooler

[Bombkirby]

For the sake of this illustration, let's say that there are no existing tiers.

Currently:

Tier 0 - Before current heroics (sub 372)
Tier 1 - Heroics +~13 ilvls (372)
Tier 2 - LFR +~13 ilvls (384) Crafted -1/2 tier (377)
Tier 3 - Dungeon Normal +~13 ilvls (397) Honor -1/2 tier (390)
Tier 4 - Dungeon Heroic +~13 ilvls (410) Conquest -1/2 tier (403)

If you were to shift honor behind heroic dungeon gear:


Tier 0 - Before current heroics (sub 372) Crafted -1/2 tier (353)
Tier 1 - Heroics +~13 ilvls (372) Honor -1/2 tier (365)
Tier 2 - LFR +~13 ilvls (384) Conquest -1/2 tier (378)
Tier 3 - Dungeon Normal +~13 ilvls (397)
Tier 4 - Dungeon Heroic +~13 ilvls (410)

There's really no feasible amount of PvP-Power/Defense that would bridge the gap between conquest and heroic raiding. Doing that would push everyone who wanted to be anything in PvP to be fully decked out in heroic raid gear in lieu of any PvP gear as gear scales exponentially. If we use current gear levels as a standard going from 372 to 410 is a 10% increase in total item level but a 45% increase in base stats. So in order for the highest tier of PvP gear to be preferable over the highest tier of PvE gear, the PvP gear would have to offer like +75% damage.

As I said, not sure why Blizzard pointed out the status quo as a change.

Isnt the point of PvP defense and damage to make all of this unimportant? And the ilevel will merely stop people from jumping into things they shouldnt be doing.

[Stanton Biston]

Isnt the point of PvP defense and damage to make all of this unimportant? And the ilevel will merely stop people from jumping into things they shouldnt be doing.

No, it's to make it less important. If the goal was to make it unimportant (irrelevant if you will) then PvP gear would be item level 0 and have weird stats. The intent of the system is to make it to where the gear is preferable to it's intended purpose but not as mandatory as it is today.

Now this will all probably change since there *should* be some sort of ilvl squish of some sort because we're on the far side of the graph, so to speak. a 10% increase in base item level resulting in a 45% increase in base stats is pretty out there. Cata has been weird. I don't think any expansion had the gap between leveling and the last tier that cata does. You end leveling at somewhere between 316-333 and heroic/conquest is all 403+. That's a 6 tier gap. (Just checked and wrath was actually about the same. Just seems like a bigger deal here)

Actually I just looked at wrath gearing in depth. I was wrong, cata is an improvement over wrath. Going from the first dropped set (i200) to the last (i277) gets you a whopping +200% bonus in base stats for a 38% increase in item level.

Whatever.

The goal is to make the gear at the same time more interchangable (taking pvp stats away from the item budget) and make the best more valuable to it's intended purpose (the greater ilvl and set bonuses for pve gear and the pvp stats for pvp gear).

[asharia]

They are turning resilience into 'expertise' from SWTOR.

I find this a little odd because expertise was considered unbalanced. Before i stopped playing i had 11.5% expertise. this means i did 11.5% more dmg to enemy players, and took 11.5% less. which is only a turnaround of 23%. compared to my 4500 resil i have in WoW, which is something like 43-44% dmg reduction. Yet, the effect of expertise in SWTOR was being nerfed (or has been idk), because it was far too effective, and left new undergeared players no chance to compete.

I have faith in Blizzard moreso than Bioware as a game designer, and especially as an MMO designer, but i'm a bit concerned about how this might turn out.

[Deleted]

my personal opinion is that pvp and pve should have a gap... i mean its two different things
why remove the chance of resistance and making pvp gear lower ilvl seems like a good idea according to me since pvp geared in LFR/LFD is just not fun...
"Power" is a new stat that i think i will grow fond of, simply because it increases damage

[Vintersol]

Hi @ aion pvp statsystem.....

[asharia]

Hi @ aion pvp statsystem.....

is that how pvp gear worked in aion too? i didnt play that one long enough to find out :P

[Vintersol]

In Aion, players are able to do only flat 60% of their pve damage to other players. To increase damage and pvp defense, there are stats on the pvp items like PvP Attack and PvP Defense. PvP Defense is on armor, PvP Attack on Weapons and accessoires like belt, rings, neck, earrings.

[MPFranke]

These changes wont prevent pve trinkets+legendaries to have a hunge benefit in PVP like the staff+daggers, vial (not so much anymore after the change) & cunning have now.

[Deleted]

So a decent PVPer can pop into a raid and perform quite well, but a decent PVEer will get nailed in PVP as hes got 0 power/defense and only the baseline resilience that everyone has?

I don't understand this

[Vintersol]

pvp gear will have a lower itemlevel compared to pve gear.

[Sesshou]

So a decent PVPer can pop into a raid and perform quite well, but a decent PVEer will get nailed in PVP as hes got 0 power/defense and only the baseline resilience that everyone has?

I don't understand this

Depends on the tuning. If the extra pvp defense on the pvp gear exactly cancels the extra damage from additional agi/str/int/secondary stats due to higher level pve gear and the extra pvp power matches to the extra stam from the higher ilvl pve gear, it could be ok. If it doesn't end up like that, I don't like this idea as I would rather have 2 completely different sets that are useless for the other (basically cata minus some op trinkets) or to just use the exact same gear for both (vanilla).

[Deleted]

pvp gear will have a lower itemlevel compared to pve gear.

Ya, i read that - i said they could perform "quite well". Being a tier behind in gear isn't a massive issue. Joining a newly released PVE tier wearing the PVP seasons top gear means your dps/healing etc will be slightly subpar, but still decent.

On the other hand, hitting PVP in your shiny new tier PVE gear still means you are missing any power/defense stats and will get most likely get nailed. At least that's how i am reading it.

Depends on the tuning. If the extra pvp defense on the pvp gear exactly cancels the extra damage from additional agi/str/int/secondary stats due to higher level pve gear and the extra pvp power matches to the extra stam from the higher ilvl pve gear, it could be ok. If it doesn't end up like that, I don't like this idea as I would rather have 2 completely different sets that are useless for the other (basically cata minus some op trinkets) or to just use the exact same gear for both (vanilla).

For that to be the case the the difference between tiers would have to be very significant, or the power/defense stats will have to be weak.

[Stanton Biston]

Ya, i read that - i said they could perform "quite well". Being a tier behind in gear isn't a massive issue. Joining a newly released PVE tier wearing the PVP seasons top gear means your dps/healing etc will be slightly subpar, but still decent.

On the other hand, hitting PVP in your shiny new tier PVE gear still means you are missing any power/defense stats and will get most likely get nailed. At least that's how i am reading it.



For that to be the case the the difference between tiers would have to be very significant, or the power/defense stats will have to be weak.

I'll math it later, but I think power and defense are going to cap at 20%.

[Snuggli]

For that to be the case the the difference between tiers would have to be very significant, or the power/defense stats will have to be weak.

I think for the most part, this.

It all depends on the difference in tiers and how good they are going to make 'power'.

[kosechi]

Because at low lvl PvP, damage are quite high and resilience is quite rare, and at high level pvp, people stack pve stuff because it's massively superior to resilience gear anyway

because this game is totally balanced around low level pvp?

[Ragedaug]

I like the spell pen changes. Was never a big fan of that in the first place.

Regarding the new PVP Defense and Player power, it will mostly have a complete null affect on PVP gear, though it will nerf PVE gear in PVP slightly more then it already does, which is kinda funny being as their stated goal is to make the gear closer.


Players will have resilience (hereafter referred to a PVPD, aka PVP Defense) built into their base stats, so the item budget for PVPD on gear will be substantially less then it is currently where a player got all their PVPD from gear. The stat exchange for this open budget space is PVPP (PVP Power), which will increase your damage against players. A fully PVP geared player will have enough PVPP to offset the base PVPD. Worse case scenario, PVP gear contains the same burst potential as today, Best case for PVP gear is that with less PVPD on gear and if PVPP completely nullifies base PVPD, PVP geared players will have more burst capabilities against PVP geared players as they have a smaller amount of gear added PVPD affecting them after the PVPP nullifies the base PVPD.


PVE geared players should defend at the same level they defend at today, as their baseline PVPD will be nullified by a PVP geared opponent's PVPP. A PVE geared player's attack should also remain unaffected against PVP geared players, as the PVP geared player has both their base PVPD and item added PVPD, which will likely equal something similar to the 40-50% defense redux we are seeing currently.

The main difference as I can see it will be PVE damage against other PVE geared players. That should go down.


Before anyone goes off on "THERE'S NO ITEM BUDGET FOR PVPP AND PVPD STATS!!"

For the record, I do realize that they are saying that. What I'm saying is they did a little clever spinning and that there is infact item budget lost. Consider that your gear from PVP will officially be a lower item level PVE gear. So you don't actually see the budget going towards PVP stats, however being as the entire budget of the item (see iLvl) is being decreased, you can quickly see where it went. The reason that I'm ok with this is because it's a nice band-aid to throw on the issue of players cheating iLvl with PVP gear. Now they can't because the item level was calculated without the PVP stats.

[DiscoGhost]

I love this idea. PvP power is to make sure that pvp gear is always better in pvp scenarios. that will fix a lot of things

itsgona rock. Makes going into to pvp from pve easier and makes sure pvp gear is the best for pvp. No more tsunami crap or heroic weapon junk

[Deleted]

The point of it having a lower ilevel is that its just the easiest way for making it unuseable for any remotely serious PVE. I think this is a good solution to keeping the different gear in its intended roles

[ComputerNerd]

I assume the base-amount of resilience is simply to lower the entry requirements for pvp which currently is hugely gear reliant.
The DR return however I would imagine is from the gear-based stat rather than what you have as baseline, and therefore pvp gear will still remain viable for the damage reduction perhaps until the later seasons/tiers of an expansion where the extra benefit per seaons set is reduced perhaps.

The tier-behind seems to be in part to screw up measurements based on item level, which are a community problem.
If you do not like that mechanism then get people to stop judging on numbers and not actually inspecting.
Blizzard are simply reacting to a player-driven problem.

[BloodchargedIllidan]

They are turning resilience into 'expertise' from SWTOR.

I find this a little odd because expertise was considered unbalanced. Before i stopped playing i had 11.5% expertise. this means i did 11.5% more dmg to enemy players, and took 11.5% less. which is only a turnaround of 23%. compared to my 4500 resil i have in WoW, which is something like 43-44% dmg reduction. Yet, the effect of expertise in SWTOR was being nerfed (or has been idk), because it was far too effective, and left new undergeared players no chance to compete.

I have faith in Blizzard moreso than Bioware as a game designer, and especially as an MMO designer, but i'm a bit concerned about how this might turn out.

Actually Expertise is pretty well balanced in SWTOR. It was bugged at the start however it was fixed, pretty much now you only want to get between 400-500 Expertise the rest you mix with PVE gear. Which is pretty much how PVP is in WoW currently, at least for some classes you aim for around 4.2-4.3k resilience then mix in some PVE gear aka Trinkets/Weapons. Really, saying undergeared players didn't have a chance....please explain how that is any different then someone in WoW having a chance once hitting 85 and wearing greens going into BGs or Arena?

---------- Post added 2012-03-02 at 10:09 AM ----------

because this game is totally balanced around low level pvp?

It's not balanced around high level either...so what's your point?