[MoP Balance] MoP Balance Discussion Thread

[Deleted]

We didn't really lose any SS uptime, since now we have both Moonfire and Sunfire available which are both able to run simultaneously on target but obviously each benefit from each eclipse separately.

Moonfire and Sunfire can only run simultaneously while we are in Celestial Alignment or they happen to be long enough by the 2 sec duration ups from crits that they overlap each other by 1-2 tick. You have Moonfire and that transforms into Sunfire. You can't just apply 2 of them together anytime. (Even in Celestial Alignment you only have Moonfire but casting it applies Sunfire DoT too)
Shooting Stars proc chance is lower (only by a little bit) than it was before, but Starsurge hits harder. However the new chance depends on crit, so actually it can be higher than before if you gear for crit. But haste can increase the chance too due to faster MF ticks. With the modifications to our rotation we have better Nature's Grace uptime. With the new build it seems like we can have 100% uptime on Nature's Grace once we reach 25% haste on our gear (in case we don't stop casting because of interrupts or movement). That means 45% haste in total (25% gear, 5% aura, 15% NG) and about 30 sec for a whole Eclipse cycle from Lunar proc to Lunar proc (or Solar to Solar). This also means 30 sec cd on Starfall since it will reset on every Lunar proc.

[Tarasin]

You can't just apply 2 of them together anytime. (Even in Celestial Alignment you only have Moonfire but casting it applies Sunfire DoT too)

You have both moonfire and sunfire default now on beta

[artem123]

You have both moonfire and sunfire default now on beta

This, pretty interesting tbh

[kendro1200]

One thing this can offer us though, is the chance to stack lunar shower with a non-eclipsed dot (or a dot that is eclipsed that is about to run out/re-applied in next eclipse cycle).
That is the most immediate interesting thing that comes to mind.

[Venteus]

Yay! Love the changes! Back to having 2 dots ^_^

[Kilma]

Yay! Love the changes! Back to having 2 dots ^_^

I like this change very much!

A couple things while testing...

It seems you want to manage the dots to keep the lunar buffed moonfire and solar buffed sunfire on the target as long as possible. (Obviously) Another thing that changed though was the act of it refreshing on the Nuke Crits. Sometime though you get those crits outside of an eclipse. So I wonder if it is extending the duration of the Buffed Dot or its refreshing it to become unbuffed.

I also wonder with these changes, if above is untrue, that Crit >= Mastery. Haste is still the best stat up to a cap I bet much like said in an above post!

[Rodpad]

I presume that Moonfire/Sunfire extensions via crits won't override the snapshot of Haste and Eclipse modifier it took when you originally cast it. Would be silly otherwise.

[Deleted]

what happened to Fae empowerment? Is it gone? Is today christmas?

[Deleted]

what happened to Fae empowerment? Is it gone? Is today christmas?

It is indeed gone.

[Deleted]

Not sure if having Moonfire and Sunfire available at the same time is intended. Ecilpse still says they transform to each other. Also the part of Celestial Alignment, Moonfire applies Sunfire DoT too would be half useless with this change (you would only gain about 1 sec by not having to cast it seperatle, but the ability to have 2 of them would no longer be a huge bonus).
Sounds the same as having Force of Nature without picking the talent for it.

If they are intended, does Moonfire still transforms into Sunfire under Solar Eclipse granting a second Sunfire?

[pakoa]

You must have read the wrong thing because it specifically states that Moonfire no longer transforms into Sunfire. On top of that, they buffed Sunfire's damage slightly which means they didn't mean to get rid of the spell entirely. The change is 100 percent intentional.

[Deleted]

Best change is no Fae Impoverment tbh

[Deleted]

Now the biggest question is how the dot management is suppose to work, if its intended to have both dots up close to 100% or simply just having Moonfire/Sunfire up depending on your eclipse.

[Miraclous]

Now the biggest question is how the dot management is suppose to work, if its intended to have both dots up close to 100% or simply just having Moonfire/Sunfire up depending on your eclipse.

Indeed, I'll leave that to the theorycrafters

[xtramuscle]

Not sure if having Moonfire and Sunfire available at the same time is intended. Ecilpse still says they transform to each other. Also the part of Celestial Alignment, Moonfire applies Sunfire DoT too would be half useless with this change

My understanding of what I read means during CE you cast Moonfire (applying 1 dot) but it also applies sunfires dot but no initial damage. My thinking is Moonfire will tick for both moonfire and sunfires damage, with only 1 physical dot on the mob/boss, thus allowing you to physically cast sunfire as well, resulting in 3 dots damage?

[Juvencus]

Not sure if having Moonfire and Sunfire available at the same time is intended. Ecilpse still says they transform to each other. Also the part of Celestial Alignment, Moonfire applies Sunfire DoT too would be half useless with this change (you would only gain about 1 sec by not having to cast it seperatle, but the ability to have 2 of them would no longer be a huge bonus).
Sounds the same as having Force of Nature without picking the talent for it.

If they are intended, does Moonfire still transforms into Sunfire under Solar Eclipse granting a second Sunfire?

From front page :

Eclipse effect for Solar Eclipse no longer transforms your Moonfire spell into Sunfire, and causing Wrath and Starsurge damage to refresh Sunfire's duration. Lunar Eclipse effect no longer causes Starfire and Starsurge damage to refresh Moonfire's duration.

Fae is gone (thank you!!!) and in my understanding they are trying to bring Haste/Mast/Crit to similar levels. Euphoria being a passive energy boost now from what it seems brings haste lower, Crit gets upgraded by the damage buff to SS and the refresh mechanic of DoTs and Mastery has already been good since many builds before where they lowered the base Eclipse dmg but boosted the Mastery scaling by a lot + our DPS cds depend on Mastery as they work with Eclipse.

I can certainly say they I like this patch

[huth]

Not sure if having Moonfire and Sunfire available at the same time is intended. Ecilpse still says they transform to each other. Also the part of Celestial Alignment, Moonfire applies Sunfire DoT too would be half useless with this change (you would only gain about 1 sec by not having to cast it seperatle, but the ability to have 2 of them would no longer be a huge bonus).
Sounds the same as having Force of Nature without picking the talent for it.

If they are intended, does Moonfire still transforms into Sunfire under Solar Eclipse granting a second Sunfire?

No. Neither does Eclipse still mention the transformation, nor does it happen.

what happened to Fae empowerment? Is it gone? Is today christmas?

Ho, ho, ho.

It should be noted that the DoT-extension effect scales with haste so that it is always exactly 1 tick. It's impossible to keep Moonfire up permanently, even at 100% crit. Because of that, it is likely that we're dealing with a simple extension that does not recalculate damage.
Something else to keep in mind: Starsurge crits extend both.

[Deleted]

My understanding of what I read means during CE you cast Moonfire (applying 1 dot) but it also applies sunfires dot but no initial damage. My thinking is Moonfire will tick for both moonfire and sunfires damage, with only 1 physical dot on the mob/boss, thus allowing you to physically cast sunfire as well, resulting in 3 dots damage?

That would be technically awkward. Moonfire can't tick for both damage with 1 physical dot. What part of the dot will be increased by 2 second duration when you crit with Wrath and what part when you crit with Starfire? How do you identify seperate ticks when you only have 1 dot?? Which one will crit when a dot would crit? Casting Moonfire will cause direct damage of Moonfire and apply Moonfire and Sunfire dot. This should be very obvious. The question is if we will still have a seperate Sunfire to cast, and will that be just a refresh to the already applied Sunfire dot or have a seperate id and apply a 3rd dot. Sounds ridiculous. They just removed one dot from us and now they would grant the ability to apply 3 at one while also resetting Starfall cd and gaining Nature's Grace? Too much burst.

[Juvencus]

That would be technically awkward. Moonfire can't tick for both damage with 1 physical dot. What part of the dot will be increased by 2 second duration when you crit with Wrath and what part when you crit with Starfire? How do you identify seperate ticks when you only have 1 dot?? Which one will crit when a dot would crit? Casting Moonfire will cause direct damage of Moonfire and apply Moonfire and Sunfire dot. This should be very obvious. The question is if we will still have a seperate Sunfire to cast, and will that be just a refresh to the already applied Sunfire dot or have a seperate id and apply a 3rd dot. Sounds ridiculous. They just removed one dot from us and now they would grant the ability to apply 3 at one while also resetting Starfall cd and gaining Nature's Grace? Too much burst.

I just tested this. I put Moon+Sunfire on target, activated CA and casted Moonfire (Sunfire in CA only applies itself). Moonfire hits as Moonfire and applies Moonfire+Sunfire DOTS over the first I had on. Sunfire also refreshes any of the Sunfires. They are separate spells but they inter-collide and work together. In more simple words the system works as they intended it and you can't cheat it with more than 2 rolling dots.

---------- Post added 2012-07-28 at 12:59 PM ----------

It should be noted that the DoT-extension effect scales with haste so that it is always exactly 1 tick. It's impossible to keep Moonfire up permanently, even at 100% crit. Because of that, it is likely that we're dealing with a simple extension that does not recalculate damage.
Something else to keep in mind: Starsurge crits extend both.

I can also confirm that SS crits extends both. I'm very happy with the restoration of 18sec dots. Even if you never crit, with the new Euphoria, both DoTs will last exactly (maybe 1sec left) until you reach the opposite Eclipse which is really nice imo

---------- Post added 2012-07-28 at 01:04 PM ----------

Also do you people believe it would be a viable option to macro Sun+Moonfire in a macro for both PvE and PvP?

In PvP it doesn't seem to have a problem as you will keep both DoTs up and also using Lunar Shower. But in PvE you will want to have the eclipsed one second to it will benefit from the 1 stack of Lunar Shower going back to 2 buttons again :P

[Deleted]

Also do you people believe it would be a viable option to macro Sun+Moonfire in a macro for both PvE and PvP?

In PvP it doesn't seem to have a problem as you will keep both DoTs up and also using Lunar Shower. But in PvE you will want to have the eclipsed one second to it will benefit from the 1 stack of Lunar Shower going back to 2 buttons again :P

If we will end up with 2 of them, I will just use them as I did with Insect Swarm. 2 buttons for 2 dots. What if I want to spam one of them because I'm in an Eclipse? I only macro spells together if I never have to use them seperately.

Btw thanks for testing things and reporting here. I'm not in the beta and can olny make theories.