Teen Killed In Neighborhood Watch Shooting

[malbojia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-brti...layer_embedded

Where's the outrage just barely a blip...

[madethisfor1post]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-brti...layer_embedded

Where's the outrage just barely a blip...

Did the suspect plead self defense then was sent home by cops after they told him his story?

I'm not trying to make light of the situation but when a black person commits a crime, they are down at county as fast as possible. The outrage over the case highlighted by these 200+ pages was how seemingly poorly the case was handled and how little people knew of this law that let cops take someone who admitted to killing someone at their word and sent him home with a smile.

[Heilige]

Not really. Walking around in the open with nothing to hide isn't exactly typical thief behavior. But there's that social stigma with young black men and crime again.

It has nothing to do with a social stigma... if there were reports of multiple burglaries in my area, with the suspects being reported as young white/hispanic males, and I saw a light-skinner person wandering around at night in a black hoodie - I'd ask questions too.

Hell, I came home from the bar Wednesday night after the Flyers Game 1 OT win, someone on my street was pulled over. I walked down to the curb to take a quick look - at the same time the car/cop began pulling off - cop saw me in a dark hoodie at night and flipped around, turned his lights on and asked me what I was doing, for ID, etc. I was standing on my own property, but for public safety, he stopped because I looked suspicious (I told you, it happens atleast once a month since multiple departments patrol my street). Do I claim I was profiled for wearing a hoodie? FUCK NO... I would rather a cop (or neighborhood watch volunteer) keep an eye on suspicious individuals. My garage alone houses all of my business equipment, and 2 motorcycles that could be stolen/vandalized and put a serious dent in my wallet.

Also, just food for thought here - what if Zimmerman was an off-duty cop who did this EXACT same thing, kept an eye on Trayvon, followed him a bit - and then ended up killing him under the exact same circumstances. There wouldn't be ANY discussion - at all about profiling or stand your ground; just some food for thought.

[Wells]

Also, just food for thought here - what if Zimmerman was an off-duty cop who did this EXACT same thing, kept an eye on Trayvon, followed him a bit - and then ended up killing him under the exact same circumstances. There wouldn't be ANY discussion - at all about profiling or stand your ground; just some food for thought.

Cops are trained to deal with these kinds of situations. They have exhaustive training on how to evaluate people, deal with confrontations and the like. If this happened, it would be an entirely different thing.

It has nothing to do with a social stigma... if there were reports of multiple burglaries in my area, with the suspects being reported as young white/hispanic males, and I saw a light-skinner person wandering around at night in a black hoodie - I'd ask questions too.

Are you denying there is a level of social discrimination against black men re: violence risk?

[Heilige]

Cops are trained to deal with these kinds of situations. They have exhaustive training on how to evaluate people, deal with confrontations and the like. If this happened, it would be an entirely different thing.

Not necessarily. If he followed Trayvon, Trayvon ran because "he was scared" - he continued to follow and was jumped (only story we have to go by) - and killed him in self defense, same situation - no media frenzy.

Are you denying there is a level of social discrimination against black men re: violence risk?

There's a level of social discrimination against any young man regarding violence risk. Hell out of all the kids I grew up/went to school with, I only know one black friend who has a criminal record, while a half dozen white friends have one. Does this mean white people are more violent than blacks? You can throw all the racial banter you want at this - but it has absolutely nothing to do with race aside from the fact AA men already robbed other houses and a "dark skinned" (meaning he could have been black, hispanic, or even indian) kid was walking through a neighborhood at night wearing a hoodie possibly looking shady.

I can say with pure confidence I'd most likely have done things very similarly to Zimmerman - can't say exactly but the keeping an eye on them from my truck and when they seem to apparently dodge behind houses using a back path - I'd probably have driven my truck to the other end of the path and intercepted from the front - being my only difference.

[Vuljatar]

I'm assuming you haven't read the dozens of quotes of that law. It protects just those situations, and more. Because it's a horribly written law.

No, I haven't seen the "dozens of quotes" in the actual legal wording of the law that explains how it specifically allows one to stalk and then murder someone. All I've seen is vague complaining from the idiotic talking heads about how "this is why self defense is bad".

[Wells]

Not necessarily. If he followed Trayvon, Trayvon ran because "he was scared" - he continued to follow and was jumped (only story we have to go by) - and killed him in self defense, same situation - no media frenzy.

Just because its the "only story we have" doesn't mean you can treat it like its true.

[KingHorse]

Cops are trained to deal with these kinds of situations. They have exhaustive training on how to evaluate people, deal with confrontations and the like. If this happened, it would be an entirely different thing.

They're also trained how to investigate a crime, to test a shooter for drugs/alcohol no matter what, to question witnesses properly...

[malbojia]

Did the suspect plead self defense then was sent home by cops after they told him his story?

I'm not trying to make light of the situation but when a black person commits a crime, they are down at county as fast as possible. The outrage over the case highlighted by these 200+ pages was how seemingly poorly the case was handled and how little people knew of this law that let cops take someone who admitted to killing someone at their word and sent him home with a smile.

Zimmerman lacked intent I don't think he personally intended to kill Trayvon however these pieces of shit had exactly that intent.

Zimmerman was over zealous and trying to help prevent further crimes whereas these individuals and waste of life were not.

My intention was to show the medias lack of morals.

The only reason Trayvons story is so publicized is the media an so many here are desperately trying to drag race into this its quite pathetic actually.

[Heilige]

Just because its the "only story we have" doesn't mean you can treat it like its true.

With a lack of evidence, or a conflicting story - doesn't mean you can treat it like he's lying. Burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt.

[tombstoner139]

There is sufficient evidence to prove BEYOND a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman acted in a RECKLESS manner resulting in the death of another human.
The 911 call, pursing and ultimately intercepting trayvon, thus forcing a self defense confrontation. The body was found between the houses according to the police report. Do a goole maps search it will show you the area. The kid tried to flee.... this is a fact. the deceased acted upon a reasonable assumption that a stranger meant him harm. Kinds are taught this at a very early age. The question becomes did any of Zimmermans actions strip him of the stand your ground laws protections.
Part of the out cry is the way this cases was swept under the rug as not worthy of due process....

[McSpriest]

Just because its the "only story we have" doesn't mean you can treat it like its true.

unfortunately its the only side of the story we have because the other side of the story is dead.

oh and Anders Behring Breivik is also claiming self defense. I'd be interested to see how many people would think he acted in self defense.

this whole idea of "self defense" is crazy to me. I don't understand how a person can reasonably claim self defense against an UNARMED person. if Zimmerman had a gun and martin had a bag of skittles then explain to me in why Zimmerman should be allowed to even claim self defense? why is there not a limit on excessive force in self defense? why is it that so many people think that its okay to shoot someone who punches you?

the issue i see is in escalating the force that if someone punches you you shoot him his brother shoots your whole family you blow up his school... when you escalate the violence more people end up hurt worse.

---------- Post added 2012-04-17 at 11:05 AM ----------

But there is some other aspect...

Give every member of a buddhist community a gun...and those guns will never be used.

Having a gun isn't the problem. Anxiety, mistrust, fear, assumptions - are the problem.

Feeling the need to own a gun is a symptom of some other situation that's gone wrong.

Instead of buying a gun, folk should switch off the TV and invest the time in their community.

No the real problem is everyone is so quick to shoot first ask questions later.

[ptwonline]

Not really. Walking around in the open with nothing to hide isn't exactly typical thief behavior. But there's that social stigma with young black men and crime again.

A couple of points:

1. Based on the 911 call he wasn't just "walking around in the open". Zimmerman specifically mentioned that the other person was acting odd--"walking around and looking about". Now we know that Trayvon may have been talkling on his phone with a headset, and so that behavior might have looked odd to an observer unable to see the phone. Especially after dark and in the rain.

2. He may not have even initially known that it was a black person. When the 911 operator asks if the person is white, black, or hispanic, Zimmerman pauses and then say "he looks black", but to my ears he did not sound certain when he said it (and the words indicate uncertainty as well).

[McSpriest]

A couple of points:

1. Based on the 911 call he wasn't just "walking around in the open". Zimmerman specifically mentioned that the other person was acting odd--"walking around and looking about". Now we know that Trayvon may have been talkling on his phone with a headset, and so that behavior might have looked odd to an observer unable to see the phone. Especially after dark and in the rain.

2. He may not have even initially known that it was a black person. When the 911 operator asks if the person is white, black, or hispanic, Zimmerman pauses and then say "he looks black", but to my ears he did not sound certain when he said it (and the words indicate uncertainty as well).

so treyon's crimes that day were... walking oddly while talking on the phone and possibly looking black? for that he deserved to die? odd logic you have there

[ptwonline]

so treyon's crimes that day were... walking oddly while talking on the phone and possibly looking black? for that he deserved to die? odd logic you have there

This is the problem with this case: it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion because people take anything said and then leap incredibly off the deep end with it.

No, I did not say anything remotely like that. I did not say that Trayvon was committing a "crime", or "that he deserved to die". The odd logic you're referring to is a complete strawman fabrication on your part, so no wonder it seems "odd".

[McSpriest]

This is the problem with this case: it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion because people take anything said and then leap incredibly off the deep end with it.

No, I did not say anything remotely like that. I did not say that Trayvon was committing a "crime", or "that he deserved to die". The odd logic you're referring to is a complete strawman fabrication on your part, so no wonder it seems "odd".

so do you believe zimmerman was guilty of murder or do you think it was "self-defense"

because zimmerman killed someone and either he is guilty of murder or not what you posted suggested that you felt he was justified in shooting treyvon

[ptwonline]

so do you believe zimmerman was guilty of murder or do you think it was "self-defense"

because zimmerman killed someone and either he is guilty of murder or not what you posted suggested that you felt he was justified in shooting treyvon

What I posted were reasons to believe that Zimmerman may have been justified in having some suspicion, since that suspicion was not necessarily just based on profiling/race.

The answer to your question is "I don't know" because I don't have all of the facts in this case.

I don't know who started the altercation that led to the shooting.

I don't even know if there were multiple altercations, possibly not started by the same person.

I don't know who was screaming before the shot was fired, or if perhaps it was even two different people screaming in that sequence.

I don't know the status of the fight when Trayvon was shot, or the physical position of the two people involved.

I don't know if Zimmerman actually racially profiled Trayvon or if his suspicions were more reasonably founded.

I don't know if Trayvon tried to pull the gun away.

I don't know if Zimmerman actually had good reason to fear for his life, or if Trayvon issued a verbal threat like Zimmerman's brother has claimed.

Without knowing at least some more of these things, there's simply no way for me to say with any reasonable degree of certainty whether this was murder or self defense. I will say that based on what we do seem to know, the self-defense argument is at least legally plausible since there was a physical altertion and Zimmerman had injuries. We also know that Zimmerman's initial actions to follow Trayvon were over the line of his roles in the neighborhood watch, but that alone is not enough to establish murder.

[Deleted]

Not if Zimmerman initiated the fight. And not necessarily even if Martin initiated the fight, since Martin had good reason to feel he was in danger. If you're being followed by someone you don't know in the middle of the night and they approach you aggressively, brandishing a weapon, then you have every reason to believe your life is at risk and you have every right to defend yourself.

This is why the "stand your ground law" is terrible and the person that gets away is the person that essentially kills the other, Zimmerman thought Martin was a threat and went in essentially to defend himself from immediate "danger", when he is approached with no reason Martin is in exactly the same situation, Zimmerman is a man with a gun stalking him on the street, up to this point the law allows two and really encourages two ( possibly ) law abiding citizens to just kill each other with no consequence.

Its up to a court to decide whether he is guilty or not, and I will not speculate about it, dont know all the facts, etc... But I hope this serves to change a ridiculous third world law that can be used anywhere that it is so broad, in the UK you cannot just use every means to defend yourself if someone comes into your house, which I think is wrong, tho there is a precedent of the farmer who shot dead a burglar and got away, there needs to be a law to do with your property and someone with clear intent of commiting a crime and possibly harm you and your family.

But it cant be an umbrella to do whatever you want with the guy, its hard to pin point what and I leave that to the courts, but there shouldnt be an umbrella get out of jail free card, I should have to prove that I was indeed in immediate danger and my reasons for my actions within the restrictions of the same law.

[Palliente]

Agreed, Fallenraven. I don't think anybody (including Zimmerman!) knows 100% whether he is guilty or not.

The law is so wide-open, anyone can come up with all kinds of scenarios where a murderer would be protected from prosecution.

[KingHorse]

I don't understand how a person can reasonably claim self defense against an UNARMED person.

Depends on the person. There are many cases wherein an unarmed person can completely destroy you, even if you're armed. There are whole fighting schools dedicated to disarming/smashing a person who pulls a weapon on you. InB4 "YOU SAID TREYVON WAS A NINJA ASSASSIN!!!1ELEVEN!" Take what I said for what it is, or leave it alone.

No the real problem is everyone is so quick to shoot first ask questions later.

Blanket statements make you look like you don't really know what's going on. Care to clarify?

---------- Post added 2012-04-17 at 06:30 PM ----------

Agreed, Fallenraven. I don't think anybody (including Zimmerman!) knows 100% whether he is guilty or not.

The law is so wide-open, anyone can come up with all kinds of scenarios where a murderer would be protected from prosecution.

I'm no expert, but from what I've read of the law, it pretty much looks like if you are in a fight and kill the other guy, all you have to do is say "I was scared." and you go home clean.

The law is fucking horrible.

Zimmerman is not innocent. But he is likely innocent of the crime he is being charged with, because of a horribly written law. Big difference.