Teen Killed In Neighborhood Watch Shooting

[obdigore]

Not quite. For one, it has to be a reasonable belief that he was in imminent danger. Generally, that unpacks to "the mythical average person could credibly believe they were in imminent danger". Practically, the judge and jury must buy the imminent danger story.

Not in Florida. If there is evidence that the person thought they were in danger, such as Zimmerman saying it to the police or him calling for help during the fight, that is enough in Florida because there is no clause that suggests that that person needs 'a reasonable fear of danger'.

But yes, I agree with the second part.

[braeldiil]

Not in Florida. If there is evidence that the person thought they were in danger, such as Zimmerman saying it to the police or him calling for help during the fight, that is enough in Florida because there is no clause that suggests that that person needs 'a reasonable fear of danger'.

But yes, I agree with the second part.

Actually, the reasonableness standard is embedded in Florifda's self defense law. For instance:

"...attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony"

That's the "stand your ground" section. Note that a reasonable belief is required, even here.

[Deleted]

So... it's page 40.

Have you managed to succeed in resurrection of the victim or whatever you are trying to achieve here thru pointless arguing, yet?

I'm not gonna pretend an mmo-champion forum thread is gonna change anything. But in a wider sense, the more this gets talked about, the better the chance of the law getting changed so that this kind of killing happens less, or atleast that the law operates in a more sensible way.

[Seegtease]

So... it's page 40.

Have you managed to succeed in resurrection of the victim or whatever you are trying to achieve here thru pointless arguing, yet?

Having an intelligent discussion isn't "pointless". I've quite enjoyed and even learned a bit by reading some of these pages (either learned about laws, or learned other people's point of view). In fact, I'd say discussion and debate is one of the best things we can do as a society to keep our brains working, new ideas developing, and continue to grow in empathy and understanding of the situation others may be in. The exchange of ideas on a message board may seem pointless to you, but I know a lot of people change a lot as a person (in a good way) when they actively participate in debates and discussions. The power of thought is the seed of change. Sure, we can't fix the past, but our understanding and knowledge can change the future.

Also, not every discussion is about proving one or the other right or wrong. Sometimes it's just the exchange of thoughts, and maybe drawing conclusions as a team rather than as individuals.

Of course, when you start throwing around insults and belittling others, that changes, but it hasn't been like that here recently.

[NeutralGuy]

MY question is - now that is has been proven George Zimmerman is of latino descent, do you feel the whole thing was started by racial profiling or by the movements of the victim? (taking short cuts thru yards)

[Deleted]

MY question is - now that is has been proven George Zimmerman is of latino descent, do you feel the whole thing was started by racial profiling or by the movements of the victim? (taking short cuts thru yards)

Latinos aren't capable of racial profiling?
Have you got a source on the talking shortcuts through yards thing? That would be a more legit suspicious behaviour, but I've not seen it mentioned anywhere.

Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall.

But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.

I assumed that to mean Martin ran between the houses to evade Zimmerman, but I'm not sure yet.

Anyway the tapes will be released shortly, that might clear it up.

[Bakis]

Wannabe cop kills a black kid, that is new...

[Snakeseye0]

Story has been updated. Check first post for new information.

[Borzo]

From the transcript, from this article:

“It’s raining. He’s just walking around, looking about. He’s just staring ... at all the houses. Now he’s just staring at me.”

Then Zimmerman said the man had his hand in his waist band. “Something’s wrong with him. He’s coming to check me out.”

“Are you following him?” the dispatcher asks.

“Yeah,” Zimmerman said.

“We don’t need you to do that.”

So maybe it was Martin who approached Zimmerman while he was still in his car.

[Deleted]

Dangit, that's not nearly as conclusive as I'd hoped. Mystery remains
Ah well, I'm done with speculating over incomplete evidence. I assume someone will take a civil suit and bring the case to court in that way, since the police don't seem willing to submit it for state prosecution?

[Bakis]

This shoot to kill or get sued for some assault charges is so bullshit.
Warning shots are not allowed in most states, if so even less put into practise, shooting in the leg is not tought.
Im so freaking glad I dont have to live in such a society.

He got someone on the run and he shoot to kill...

[Seegtease]

From the transcript, from this article:




So maybe it was Martin who approached Zimmerman while he was still in his car.

He may have also been out of the car. I don't think it matters much, though. It does sound like Martin did approach Zimmerman, though.

[Vanyali]

From the transcript, from this article:




So maybe it was Martin who approached Zimmerman while he was still in his car.

At the same time, the guy was following him. If someone was following ME in their car I'd either approach them to see what the fuck they were doing (probably not) or run the hell away (more likely for me, as a woman and untrained fighter).

EDIT: also, from the same article:

"According to police, instead of heeding the dispatcher's warning, Zimmerman said he got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon. At that point, Trayvon came toward him and the two began to fight. "

So Zimmerman got out to continue following him, THEN was approached.

Then there's also

"While one eyewitness has said there was no scuffle, another has said he saw Zimmerman on his back on the ground. According to the police incident report, Zimmerman's nose was bloody and his shirt was grass-stained.

Police also said that Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, told them the voice pleading for help was not Trayvon. The family claims the police are lying, and pointed out that once the audio quality was cleaned up the father said that the voice did indeed belong to his son."

which suggests that sides are being taken (expected) and someone in the community is covering, either by being asked or because they dislike someone. You can't really take the word of the father by itself that the voice is his, but if it IS his then that flips Zimmerman's story on its head and turns it into straight-murder instead of some bull about self-defense.

[Seegtease]

Police also said that Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, told them the voice pleading for help was not Trayvon. The family claims the police are lying, and pointed out that once the audio quality was cleaned up the father said that the voice did indeed belong to his son."

which suggests that sides are being taken (expected) and someone in the community is covering, either by being asked or because they dislike someone. You can't really take the word of the father by itself that the voice is his, but if it IS his then that flips Zimmerman's story on its head and turns it into straight-murder instead of some bull about self-defense.

Wait, wait.

The father of the person killed said that the call for help did not come from Trayvon? And somehow that is "taking a side"?

If the father were "taking a side", he would have said the voice was his son's. That way, it would seem like his son was crying for help, and you know, got shot anyway. Which would make it murder. But if it were Zimmerman crying for help, then it would be more likely to be self-defense.

So I think you're confused - if the father is right (in saying that the call for help was not his sons), then self-defense comes more likely, not less likely. And... I don't see why Trayvon's father would lie about that, since it doesn't help his son's cause.

[Vanyali]

Wait, wait.

The father of the person killed said that the call for help did not come from Trayvon? And somehow that is "taking a side"?

If the father were "taking a side", he would have said the voice was his son's. That way, it would seem like his son was crying for help, and you know, got shot anyway. Which would make it murder. But if it were Zimmerman crying for help, then it would be more likely to be self-defense.

So I think you're confused - if the father is right (in saying that the call for help was not his sons), then self-defense comes more likely, not less likely. And... I don't see why Trayvon's father would lie about that, since it doesn't help his son's cause.

Taking sides was the first part: one poerson said a scuffle took place, one did not. Clearly SOMETHING happened (with zimmerman bloody and grass stained), but it's not to hard to hit yourself in the nose and lay in the grass if you're trying to plea self-defense. Not saying it DID happen, but it could have.

His father also said the call for help DID come from his son, but you can't necessarily trust it. Grief, his expectation... the only one that could really be trusted would be a professional (outside from the community preferably).

Did you skim? It says he DOES say the call is his sons, which makes the self-defense LESS likely for zimmerman.

[Seegtease]

"Police also said that Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, told them the voice pleading for help was not Trayvon."

Did YOU skim? You even quoted this, directly from the article.

[Vanyali]

"Police also said that Trayvon's father, Tracy Martin, told them the voice pleading for help was not Trayvon."

Did YOU skim? You even quoted this, directly from the article.

"The family claims the police are lying, and pointed out that once the audio quality was cleaned up the father said that the voice did indeed belong to his son."

Looking at two sentences, we both fail.

[Borzo]

Taking sides was the first part: one poerson said a scuffle took place, one did not. Clearly SOMETHING happened (with zimmerman bloody and grass stained), but it's not to hard to hit yourself in the nose and lay in the grass if you're trying to plea self-defense. Not saying it DID happen, but it could have.

At least one witness says they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman while Zimmerman was on the ground. They then separated... and then shortly after that there was a shot fired.

I'm sure an autopsy will show the extent of their scuffle/fight.

[Seegtease]

"The family claims the police are lying, and pointed out that once the audio quality was cleaned up the father said that the voice did indeed belong to his son."

Looking at two sentences, we both fail.

So either he decided that he made a bad decision and was looking for an excuse to change his statement (audio quality), or he really did legitimately change his mind.

I'm gonna go with the former. I mean, he must have realized later "man, why did I just admit to that? That's not helping me". And saw a chance to change it. Just my hunch.

[NeutralGuy]

Im so freaking glad I dont have to live in such a society.

Oh what great country and what planet do you come from good sir?