1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    Yeah the law is stupid. To me if you are trying to make some self-defense law involving firearms I would make it leak tight. Wow I can't belive this.
    Yes, that is why he isn't in jail. The Florida Statute clearly states that the police must accept the 'self defense' statement unless they have evidence to disprove it, and from everything I have seen, they have no evidence to disprove it.

    Shitty situation? Yes. Shitty law? Yes.

    Should this be a huge push to get the law changed instead of crying about racial injustice? Yes.

  2. #1042
    Brewmaster Shon237's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Yes, that is why he isn't in jail. The Florida Statute clearly states that the police must accept the 'self defense' statement unless they have evidence to disprove it, and from everything I have seen, they have no evidence to disprove it.

    Shitty situation? Yes. Shitty law? Yes.

    Should this be a huge push to get the law changed instead of crying about racial injustice? Yes.
    Seems like you agree but want to start arguements. Racial injustice? I never said that. For people who claim race, well their opinion. Always hard to prove racism unless you find out the person has a background of say if he was white he was neo-nazi, attended rallies, saved internet rant and/or actually criminal record vs minorities. Again this guy is Latin, which does not mean he is not a racist, you do not have to be white to be a racist. Seems in 911 call he says "coon" under his breath. Again I hate playing race card.

    I hope people who are non-Florida residents choose to call or write maybe Florida board of tourism or businesses such as Disney World and say "not going to your state with a law like that". Florida residents who have common sense. Well you better be calling your state reps.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    Seems like you agree but want to start arguements. Racial injustice? I never said that. For people who claim race, well their opinion. Always hard to prove racism unless you find out the person has a background of say if he was white he was neo-nazi, attended rallies, saved internet rant and/or actually criminal record vs minorities. Again this guy is Latin, which does not mean he is not a racist, you do not have to be white to be a racist. Seems in 911 call he says "coon" under his breath. Again I hate playing race card.

    I hope people who are non-Florida residents choose to call or write maybe Florida board of tourism or businesses such as Disney World and say "not going to your state with a law like that". Florida residents who have common sense. Well you better be calling your state reps.
    Start arguments? I'm agreeing with you, but making a comment on the situation. The entire black community in Florida is screaming that it is racism, is what I'm saying. I'm saying, instead of claiming that this is some huge racial injustice, the people in Florida should use this case as a public outcry to change the law.

  4. #1044
    Moderator Pendulous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by braeldiil View Post
    To put a real Florida case into the mix:

    In 2008, a couple of gang members had a beef with a rival gang. They gathered some weapons and drove into the other gang's territory. The other gang met them in the street, and a shootout developed in the middle of the street. During the shootout, a 15 year old boy was killed.

    Two men were arrested for the shooting. All witnesses agree that, in addition to firing the shots that killed the 15-year old, these men were the first to fire shots in this confrontation, and were the ones who drove into the neighborhood. Yet they claimed self defense while standing their ground, and the judge in the case was forced to agree, and dismissed all charges.

    That's current Florida law.

    Link: http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/92183289.html
    I'm sorry, how can anyone agree that that law is fine and doesn't need to be changed?

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  5. #1045
    Quote Originally Posted by Purlina View Post
    I'm pretty sure that if the shooter was black he would probably have been taken into custody.
    Very likely since we can imagine the outrage of a black 28 year old shoot and killed a white teenager and him walking away from the shooting with just saying oh self defense. Really noone would buy that claim in that case and rightfully so. self serving statements is usually what goes around crimes and you dont take the criminals word for it. If we did we need to release thousands upon thousands from our jails since they all claim they are innocent and i didnt do it.

    Sure some of them probably didnt do it but the wast majority are infacto guilty as charged. Just used as a point in case to prove you dont take the words from the man doing the shooting until you can prove it is the case. Someone died we need to find out what happened and letting the shooter walk away even if it was self defense is just wrong when you have the evidence that more and more looks like he stalked and chased down and gunned down the victim

    Putting the evidence we do know ontop of each other and let the timeline play out it makes a very troubling case for the shooter. And even more troubling for the police department. It isnt the shooters fault he isnt arrested that comes on the PD.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    That is how the Florida law is written. The police do not arrest him because the witness statements apparently matched Zimmermans' story. They investigated then sent it to the State Attorneys, and the State Attorneys need to see if they have a case.

    I agree that the problem is how Florida's law is written. I personally think that if you are in a public place you have a duty to retreat, at the very least.
    Two problems with that:

    1) The witness statements did not match his story. Even the absolutely minimal statements the cops bothered to take that night didn't match his story. Neither did the available physical evidence. And there's evidence from law enforcement personnel that the officers who responded were "shaping" the evidence from the moment they arrived on scene.

    2) The local police didn't bother to do any further investigation. None. As far as the cops were concerned, the investigation ended with Zimmerman's statement. The only reason the real story ever came out is because of the family raising a fuss and local/national news organizations getting involved. For christ's sake, the police managed to miss the fact that he was on the freaking phone during the confrontation for nearly a month.

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Very likely since we can imagine the outrage of a black 28 year old shoot and killed a white teenager and him walking away from the shooting with just saying oh self defense. Really noone would buy that claim in that case and rightfully so. self serving statements is usually what goes around crimes and you dont take the criminals word for it. If we did we need to release thousands upon thousands from our jails since they all claim they are innocent and i didnt do it.

    Sure some of them probably didnt do it but the wast majority are infacto guilty as charged. Just used as a point in case to prove you dont take the words from the man doing the shooting until you can prove it is the case. Someone died we need to find out what happened and letting the shooter walk away even if it was self defense is just wrong when you have the evidence that more and more looks like he stalked and chased down and gunned down the victim

    Putting the evidence we do know ontop of each other and let the timeline play out it makes a very troubling case for the shooter. And even more troubling for the police department. It isnt the shooters fault he isnt arrested that comes on the PD.
    No, the 'fault' lies squarely on the way the law(s) are written in Florida. The police were correct in letting him walk after taking him to the station for questioning, when all the 911 calls and the eyewitnesses agreed with his story. Florida law states that the police must be able to prove it was not self defense, if the person who killed claimed self defense.

  8. #1048
    I live in Alaska and the neighbor hood watch never took things into there own hands they just informed the police of suspicious activity.

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by braeldiil View Post
    Two problems with that:

    1) The witness statements did not match his story. Even the absolutely minimal statements the cops bothered to take that night didn't match his story. Neither did the available physical evidence. And there's evidence from law enforcement personnel that the officers who responded were "shaping" the evidence from the moment they arrived on scene.

    2) The local police didn't bother to do any further investigation. None. As far as the cops were concerned, the investigation ended with Zimmerman's statement. The only reason the real story ever came out is because of the family raising a fuss and local/national news organizations getting involved. For christ's sake, the police managed to miss the fact that he was on the freaking phone during the confrontation for nearly a month.
    Really? The cops are saying that the statements did match Zimmermans, when they were taken the night it happened. And now some of the eyewitnesses are claiming that isn't what they told the cops, while some of them are saying it is. Why did the girl that was apparently on the phone with Trayvon wait for nearly a month before coming forward?

  10. #1050
    Brewmaster Shon237's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendulous View Post
    I'm sorry, how can anyone agree that that law is fine and doesn't need to be changed?
    Yeah in my state maybe about 10 years ago we passed a "coneal and carry law" I live midwest and we have one major metro city Minneapolis/St. Paul but was basically voted down by all the rural yahoo's and the law was passed. Yes it is democracy in action but as a business owner if you did not want people to carry guns into you place of business you had to post a sign that basically said "No Firearms Allowed". I always hated that as people from out state or even in state walking into my place of business and first thing they see is that sign.

  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Oh I see, an internet expert. I see no point in arguing with you.
    Why reply if you have nothing to say? I wrote out a few basic concepts. If you don't know how to respond, either admit it, or say nothing at all.

    But if you post something ridiculous, expect to get called out on it. If you can't back it up, you shouldn't have said anything in the first place.

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Really? The cops are saying that the statements did match Zimmermans, when they were taken the night it happened. And now some of the eyewitnesses are claiming that isn't what they told the cops, while some of them are saying it is. Why did the girl that was apparently on the phone with Trayvon wait for nearly a month before coming forward?
    Because the cops had already decided what happened before they took witness statements. They took minimal statements, tried to correct witnesses about what they saw/heard, and generally manipulated the evidence to hit the narrative they'd already established. They didn't bother to do any basic policework - they made no effort to identify Trayvon, for instance - despite having his phone, with people calling it looking for him, they never ID'd him. His father found him when he called the cops trying to file a missing person's report.

    It took them several days to bother to run a background check on Zimmerman. That's right, they took the word of a man they found standing over a dead body with a gun in his hand when he told them he had a clean record, and didn't bother to verify it.

    When they talked to the father several days later, either they hadn't bothered to listen to Zimmerman's calls, or they flat ignored them, because they were still pitching the "got out of the car to look for a street sign" story.

    Simply put, the cops screwed up the investigation so badly that you can't trust a word they say right now. There's a reason why the county, state, and federal governmenst have all opened independent investigations, after all.

    As to the girl, she ended up in the hospital from the shock of hearing a close friend getting killed. After that, her family contacted a lawyr and waited for the police to call her. ABC news just got there first, because they were actually investigating rather than covering their asses.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by braeldiil View Post
    Because the cops had already decided what happened before they took witness statements. They took minimal statements, tried to correct witnesses about what they saw/heard, and generally manipulated the evidence to hit the narrative they'd already established. They didn't bother to do any basic policework - they made no effort to identify Trayvon, for instance - despite having his phone, with people calling it looking for him, they never ID'd him. His father found him when he called the cops trying to file a missing person's report.

    It took them several days to bother to run a background check on Zimmerman. That's right, they took the word of a man they found standing over a dead body with a gun in his hand when he told them he had a clean record, and didn't bother to verify it.

    When they talked to the father several days later, either they hadn't bothered to listen to Zimmerman's calls, or they flat ignored them, because they were still pitching the "got out of the car to look for a street sign" story.

    Simply put, the cops screwed up the investigation so badly that you can't trust a word they say right now. There's a reason why the county, state, and federal governmenst have all opened independent investigations, after all.

    As to the girl, she ended up in the hospital from the shock of hearing a close friend getting killed. After that, her family contacted a lawyr and waited for the police to call her. ABC news just got there first, because they were actually investigating rather than covering their asses.
    Really?

    Because that is some huge assumptions on your part, regarding what the cops have decided.

    The country, state, and feds have opened investigations soley because of the cry of racism. That is it.

    And as for the girl, the phone shut off before there was even any fight. How did she 'hear her friend get killed'?

    I get it, you hate the police. I mean, you could try to look at the facts in the story instead of reading all the what-ifs and bullshit that everyone is spouting.

    Edit: Also, why was this 'kind and loving boy' suspended from school for 10 days, and why did his mother force him to go live with his father for that time? His father had no custodial rights.
    Last edited by obdigore; 2012-03-22 at 04:16 AM.

  14. #1054
    [QUOTE=Kaellen;15829417]Now, if the kid did something stupid, like acting aggressively or something, then its mostly his fault.

    What 17 year old boy hasn't done something stupid and acted aggressively... Do we kill them all? Because I will need more bullets

  15. #1055
    Brewmaster Shon237's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Renzu;16052452]
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaellen View Post
    Now, if the kid did something stupid, like acting aggressively or something, then its mostly his fault.

    What 17 year old boy hasn't done something stupid and acted aggressively... Do we kill them all? Because I will need more bullets

    Nice keyboard turner on your first post. Reason why carrying gun laws are so stupid. People making judgements on other people where they are teens acting dumb, color of skin, religion, etc. That person thinks he is a threat and shoots that person. In Florida its a joke because they actually have a lawy that says he says he says. One problem with that is one of them is dead and can't tell his side of story.

    Scenerio: I'm standing on a Florida street corner, no witnesses. Guy approaches me for directions. BAM! I shoot him. He was coming at me in threating way, I stood my ground. Prove I am wrong?

  16. #1056
    High Overlord Reirae's Avatar
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    Sorry but America needs to seriously wake up. The views the general population has on dangerous weapons is appauling and ridiculous! I cannot think of another country which is so "developed" and "wealthy" that has as much gun crime. You hear about a school shooting atleast once a month, it's madness. Over here our police don't even carry guns. Only in the past few years have drug lords and other such high end criminals started using guns, and they only ever shoot other criminals.
    Sure, the killing spree going on in France atm has shocked most of europe, it's horrific. But things like that almost seem common in America...
    Something seriously needs to be done before it gets worse. You guys are just sinking faster and faster.
    Also, about the whole racism thing, people are people. If you were born in the US, then that's where you're from, what difference should skin colour make? And what difference should where you're from make anyways? People are people, we're individuals not race or colour or gender or sexuality.
    Jaysus, the world makes me lose hope D:

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post


    Nice keyboard turner on your first post. Reason why carrying gun laws are so stupid. People making judgements on other people where they are teens acting dumb, color of skin, religion, etc. That person thinks he is a threat and shoots that person. In Florida its a joke because they actually have a lawy that says he says he says. One problem with that is one of them is dead and can't tell his side of story.

    Scenerio: I'm standing on a Florida street corner, no witnesses. Guy approaches me for directions. BAM! I shoot him. He was coming at me in threating way, I stood my ground. Prove I am wrong?
    Hit yourself in the face a couple times, then slam his hand into the ground.

    There, now he was attacking you, and you get off! Hooray!

  18. #1058
    Brewmaster Shon237's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reirae View Post
    Sorry but America needs to seriously wake up. The views the general population has on dangerous weapons is appauling and ridiculous! I cannot think of another country which is so "developed" and "wealthy" that has as much gun crime. You hear about a school shooting atleast once a month, it's madness. Over here our police don't even carry guns. Only in the past few years have drug lords and other such high end criminals started using guns, and they only ever shoot other criminals.
    Sure, the killing spree going on in France atm has shocked most of europe, it's horrific. But things like that almost seem common in America...
    Something seriously needs to be done before it gets worse. You guys are just sinking faster and faster.
    Also, about the whole racism thing, people are people. If you were born in the US, then that's where you're from, what difference should skin colour make? And what difference should where you're from make anyways? People are people, we're individuals not race or colour or gender or sexuality.
    Jaysus, the world makes me lose hope D:
    Its our gun culture. I'm sure its a sad sort of funny when you read posts here and some actually try to defend the law and people who live in other countries can't believe this actually happened and we have laws like this. Just goes to show you how once something becomes so intertwined in our culture/country that its hard to get rid of.

    Just speaking about US, racism is obviously very touch subject and easily can flame into a huge fire. I have heard tapes and come to my conclusion but I will also say that when we use racism in the US it better have alot of evidence backing it up. Some on posts hate that racism is being used but I have to say that well most African Americans and other minorities actually go through alot bs with police and other people judging them. Its our history.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-21 at 11:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Hit yourself in the face a couple times, then slam his hand into the ground.

    There, now he was attacking you, and you get off! Hooray!
    Its called sarcasm.

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    Its called sarcasm.
    Yes. Other people can use it too...

  20. #1060
    High Overlord Reirae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shon237 View Post
    Its our gun culture. I'm sure its a sad sort of funny when you read posts here and some actually try to defend the law and people who live in other countries can't believe this actually happened and we have laws like this. Just goes to show you how once something becomes so intertwined in our culture/country that its hard to get rid of.

    Just speaking about US, racism is obviously very touch subject and easily can flame into a huge fire. I have heard tapes and come to my conclusion but I will also say that when we use racism in the US it better have alot of evidence backing it up. Some on posts hate that racism is being used but I have to say that well most African Americans and other minorities actually go through alot bs with police and other people judging them. Its our history.
    Yes but I think in this day and age people shouldn't behave in such a way. It's a disgrace. I even find the fact that you call people "African Americans" strange tbh, aren't they just Americans? Although in Ireland we don't have very many first or second generation Irish born to parents from Africa, India, China, wherever, the number is growing and we wouldn't call them "African Irish" or "Chinese Irish". Seems odd to me.

    And while I do appriciate the history is a touch subject, Ireland has some pretty bad history with England. You know cause they invaded our country, took our land, food, language and rights, these days there's basically no racism whatso ever against the English. Sure the queen came to visit last year. Ofc there is still some, and we still have issues with the IRA, but it's nothing compaired to America.

    It really baffles me how racism can still be such a big issue, and how gun crime is such a big issue, when you're such an advanced country in other ways. Things like what happened to this child shouldn't happen.

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