1. #2481
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    sorry but visage ulti is freakin awesome
    You're getting two flying melee creeps with half the vision range, twice the bounty, and half the HP. It's fucking awful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  2. #2482
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    You're getting two flying melee creeps with half the vision range, twice the bounty, and half the HP. It's fucking awful.
    It's great, you're just awful or horribly misusing it. A lot of shitters in MM keep feeding free familiars and bitch about how awful hero Visage is but then you see someone with half a brain play him and you'll know better.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-09-01 at 04:43 AM.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  3. #2483
    I don't think having a brain matters. It's useful against some heroes and garbage against others, it's all about matchup. Most things in DotA are this way, it shouldn't be surprising.

    Gyrocopter, for example, will kill Visage ultimate without even targeting in one or two shots. Even level 3 ultimate dies in two hits maximum to a late game Gyro. Against Zeus? Yeah, sure, it'll do some damage.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-09-01 at 04:46 AM.
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  4. #2484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't think having a brain matters. It's useful against some heroes and garbage against others, it's all about matchup. Most things in DotA are this way, it shouldn't be surprising.

    Gyrocopter, for example, will kill Visage ultimate without even targeting in one or two shots. Even level 3 ultimate dies in two hits maximum to a late game Gyro. Against Zeus? Yeah, sure, it'll do some damage.
    Familiars will do good damage against anyone with low armor for the first one or two hits, but after that the damage falls off sharply, and due to their low durability and high bounty, they don't provide much DPS since they can't stick around. The only reason to even take familiars is for the stun, and as far as the stun goes, personally there a lot better options.

    It's seeming like there are a lot better options in general than Visage for almost anything except trilane versus trilane, and even then I think having a Venomancer would be better.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-01 at 01:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    It's great, you're just awful or horribly misusing it. A lot of shitters in MM keep feeding free familiars and bitch about how awful hero Visage is but then you see someone with half a brain play him and you'll know better.
    I've never had a familiar die to an enemy player and I haven't missed any stuns with them on anyone I was aiming for. I don't have issues using them, I have issues finding them to be worth picking Visage for, which is apparently the primary reason to take him if you aren't trying to dominate an enemy trilane.

    Visage is amazing if he can just chill in the middle of team fights and just constantly shit Soul Assumption everywhere, but that both demands a lot of mana, 140 every 4 sec, and also assumes the enemy team is just going to let him sit around. Gravekeeper's Cloak makes him really hard to immediately blow up with something like Laguna Blade, but after four hits from any hero (including dots from heroes like QoP, Veno, and Viper) cloak is completely removed and you're left with a slow INT hero with the same godawful base armor as heroes like Doomy and Tiny, but without their high STR, and without any escape abilities.

    Basically, it seems like Visage needs to roam a lot in order for maximum effectiveness - especially if the enemy team isn't stupid and doesn't try to fight a Visage trilane with a trilane of their own - but there are a lot of better choices for that kind of playstyle. Soul Assumption is great in team fights if you can stay alive and have the mana to spam it, but if I wanted a hero that ganks and tosses out a constant stream of nukes while also being hard to burst down... wouldn't QoP be a better choice?

    I would rather have Lycan's wolves than Visage's familiars every single time. They're better in all the ways that really matter - much higher DPS, more health, considerably less bounty if you happen to get them killed, and they synergize with Lycan and especially Lycan's typical item builds (especially Vlad's) a lot more than familiars synergize with Visage. On top of that, they're also fantastic scouts due to permanent invisibility and pretty damned good 1200/800 sight range, and while they aren't flying units, they move much faster than Visage's familiars, up to the point of moving at maximum speed and gaining immunity to slowing effects during Lycan's ulti.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-09-01 at 06:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  5. #2485
    Don't forget they can fly and wolves can't. But I agree, they should be a little less pathetic. The problem becomes if they're made any better they will be too strong early game. Remember when he could summon 5-7 of them and they all had ordinary vision? He had a map full of wards at all times.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-09-01 at 06:25 AM.
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  6. #2486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Don't forget they can fly and wolves can't. But I agree, they should be a little less pathetic. The problem becomes if they're made any better they will be too strong early game. Remember when he could summon 5-7 of them and they all had ordinary vision? He had a map full of wards at all times.
    Yes. My biggest issue, beyond neutral creeps just casually punching them for a third of their health while I'm repositioning them through a jungle, is the lack of vision. Even just 800/800 would be plenty. It's way too risky to use them to chase down a fleeing hero or to try and scout ahead in preparation for a gank or teamfight when you can't tell if you're about to run them into a creep wave (which will kill them) or a healthy enemy hero (which will give that hero 200 gold.)

    I'd probably also recommend giving level 1 familiars like 305 HP or something just to ensure a level 4 Laser or Brain Sap isn't an instant, guaranteed 100 gold for those heroes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  7. #2487
    Scarab Lord Azalu's Avatar
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    So what are people's opinions on team liquid covering dota 2 now? Do you think it'll be good for the scene?

  8. #2488
    Pandaren Monk Kurdiern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azalu View Post
    So what are people's opinions on team liquid covering dota 2 now? Do you think it'll be good for the scene?
    Very. I've always respected TL. Well written, professional, and a reliable source of information. See nothing but good things coming from them. Some might argue that the moderation is too heavy, but I really disagree.

  9. #2489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurdiern View Post
    Very. I've always respected TL. Well written, professional, and a reliable source of information. See nothing but good things coming from them. Some might argue that the moderation is too heavy, but I really disagree.
    The moderators on their forums do a great job of keeping the riffraff from shitting up the place. Closest analogue I can think of would maybe be Elitist Jerks - if you're making a claim, you better be able to back it up.

    TL getting involved, especially on an official level, is a huge thing. I hope they make a team.



    Randomed Krob, had to play support since they picked Luna and AM after I randomed. AM proceeds to rage and scream and cry about me being 0/9/5 when we lost 45 mins later, as if I'm going to do anything but feed as a Krob that takes no farm and is spending what little cash she gets on fucking wards. And then he reports me for... I dunno what. I fucking hate people most of the time.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-09-01 at 01:51 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  10. #2490
    Scarab Lord Azalu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    The moderators on their forums do a great job of keeping the riffraff from shitting up the place. Closest analogue I can think of would maybe be Elitist Jerks - if you're making a claim, you better be able to back it up.

    TL getting involved, especially on an official level, is a huge thing. I hope they make a team.
    I hope so too, though their moderating is biased if put bluntly. A lot of SC2 bashing is allowed to occur but say a bad thing about Brood War (even an intelligent argument) and expect to be infracted/banned

  11. #2491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azalu View Post
    I hope so too, though their moderating is biased if put bluntly. A lot of SC2 bashing is allowed to occur but say a bad thing about Brood War (even an intelligent argument) and expect to be infracted/banned
    To be fair, BW is the vastly superior game. SC2 won't be interesting until after Blizzard's done milking all the cash it can out of the franchise and that's not apt to be until another two or three years down the road. On top of that, no LAN play means games fall apart in tournaments, and no option to rejoin a game you're dropped from means a distressing number of games (as in, more than none) end up having to go a judges' decision.

    EDIT: Additionally, I'd say SC2 requires considerably less skill than BW. The pathing AI makes units clump up a lot more tightly, which means AOE damage of any kind (lol, colossi) are extremely effective relative to how AOE worked in BW. Many other things, like automining, larger control groups, and so on also rather dramatically lower the skill floor, though they're so damned nice to have I'm willing to overlook it.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-09-01 at 01:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  12. #2492
    Scarab Lord Azalu's Avatar
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    My post isn't about that. It had its flaws as does SC2. My post is about the fact that some people who may not have played BW but enjoy SC2 are subjected to constant bashing remarks by bitter BW fans but get instantly punished if they say something back. It's venomous elitistism that often drives new people away weakening the scene. My fear is that dota 2 fans will be subjected to the same treatment. I've already read quite a lot of toxic posts about it already
    Last edited by Azalu; 2012-09-01 at 03:09 PM.

  13. #2493
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Randomed Krob, had to play support since they picked Luna and AM after I randomed. AM proceeds to rage and scream and cry about me being 0/9/5 when we lost 45 mins later, as if I'm going to do anything but feed as a Krob that takes no farm and is spending what little cash she gets on fucking wards. And then he reports me for... I dunno what. I fucking hate people most of the time.
    I had TA in a game where Invoker called mid. I figured no problem, until the 4th/5th picks on my team were "solo bot plz" and "jungle." Got send to radiant's top against SK/Leshrac (with furion jungling) pub stompers. You'd better believe they got a double kill at level 2 on us and the solo bot Krobelus blamed us for his loss.
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  14. #2494
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    TI2 spoiler.

    My hat is off to Na'Vi. That's an upset if I ever saw one. Simply phenomenal.

  15. #2495
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffer View Post
    TI2 spoiler.

    My hat is off to Na'Vi. That's an upset if I ever saw one. Simply phenomenal.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDaJes0T1Ig

  16. #2496
    Dreadlord Nightfury Treann's Avatar
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    so:

    LGD or NA'Vi?

    i'll say Na'vi may get this one again
    "#Got99ProblemsAndTreannAintOne" ~ElyPop

  17. #2497
    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    I had to watch that twice to even see what went down...I agree that they should have expected Enigma's BKB to beat Tide's slow ass ult, but still, I would be throwing my keyboard into a wall if I was iG from that play.

    In any case, DS/enigma seems to be working well for Na'vi. It's always nice to see the backbone of a team be the initiator or support instead of the hard carry - hopefully newer players will learn something from this.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-09-02 at 08:46 PM.
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  18. #2498
    I must say that the last few games I have watched, have been quite amazing (was playing GW2 so much I forgot about the tourney). The Na'Vi/LGD matches were exceptionally entertaining to watch. I'm not that good of a player*, so to me the level of skill these players are showing and the speed at which they are using abilities is simply astounding. Personally, I don't care who wins, but I'd love to see the last match-up go 5 rounds.

    * Only decent with Krobelus, Bane and Techies, and Techies aren't in Dota2 yet, and was pretty decent with Nymph (and Succy/Defiler) in the early HoN beta, but I didn't like the direction they took that game.

  19. #2499
    Dreadlord Nightfury Treann's Avatar
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    IG gave up on the second round at 19 minutes, haha. And i thought that giving up earlier like that was public games business (no offense to anyone )
    "#Got99ProblemsAndTreannAintOne" ~ElyPop

  20. #2500
    Pros tend to say GG in any game if they feel it's hopeless. People have ended SC2 matches at points where the viewers were like "wait what?"

    If anything, a forfeit is more respectful in a professional match because you know if they're giving up they really mean it.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-09-03 at 05:29 AM.
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