1. #2681
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfInvocation View Post
    Have to disagree. I mean he is not that tough for one?

    Okay so decent starting health, and okay strength gain, although it is not THAT good. (2.7 I think, where the highest is 3.2) while his starting armor is something like 1.7 which is far below average for a melee hero I think.

    Storm bolt vs Fissure as an example:

    I will take Fissure any day of the week. Storm bolt deals like 40 more damage in wider aoe, but Fissure beats that by far if you can line up enemies. And that's not even talking about how good blocking with Fissure is, can't count how many first blood I have gotten from that, or saved a teammate from first blood.

    Sven is such a weird hero, he takes up tons of roles, but is below average in all of them IMO. (So worse than a jack of all trades)

    Sure he has a stronger presence in lane than say a Clockwork, but nothing compared to say a Venomancer/Leshrac/Juggernut/Invoker/PUDGE!
    Seems like the heroes that are commonly picked and banned are the jack of all trades heroes.

    Sven does suffer from not really having a set role. This isn't a problem with an item-dependent hero with amazing farm like Profit (his role is determined by what he builds) or a Swiss army knife hero like Invoker, but it is with Sven. If you play him as a carry, he's ridiculously easy to kite, even with a blink dagger, and he's outperformed by both Leoric and especially Chaos Knight in that role. If you play him as a support, he's mostly useless. And if you play him as a pusher, he still can't do anything about a Keeper of the Light hanging out 1200 range away shitting out Illuminates on cooldown or a Profit that's constantly skipping around the map pushing out the lanes Sven isn't in.

    Would you put Treant Protector in the same boat? A hero that suffers from not having a set role, and is outperformed by other heroes (Tide being the biggest contender) in the roles he tries to fill?

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-17 at 11:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by eemuman View Post
    I'm getting frustrated because of teamfights. Nothing to do with my team or anything, but whenever teamfight starts and we focus their carry I go to this super duper tunnelvision mode where I ignore everything else, my position is really bad and I don't notice it until I'm nearly or completely dead. Pisses me right off! Any tips how to get out of the tunnelvisioning and actually realise stuff that's going around?

    Usually when we setup a gank or something I can do fairly well with my positioning etc, but like I said... The teamfights get me frustrated.
    You're tilting, probably. Take a day off or at least a few hours off. Most people play increasingly worse and worse as they get more and more frustrated, so if you lost a couple games in a row due to idiot teammates or you making bad mistakes... take a break and come back when you're fresh.

    The usual solution to bad teammates is to pick heroes that can basically carry a team. Earthshaker is really good if you can position yourself to punish the enemy team for stacking. My last game had us start out really behind, getting ganked constantly by Storm Spirit, QoP, and Morphling (free tower diving since they're blink heroes.) I think I spent the first 15 minutes hiding in the trees, giving my PA as much solo XP as I could.

    But then they stacked up with a double creep wave to push a tower, I was able to hobble over and echo slam and we wiped their team and took a tower, and that gave our team a much needed boost of confidence. We were able to repeat it two more times (they were idiots, I guess) along with some ganks and went to an easy win.

    If your team isn't nothing but instalocked hard carries, you could also play a morphling or anti-mage and basically ignore your team for 30 minutes while you free farm. Profit can also pull this off if you can push multiple lanes effectively (don't do it if they have, like, a Sand King or Keeper of the Light, though), and I've noticed pubs seem to have issues dealing with a fed Phantom Lancer, too.

    I'd also recommend not soloqueuing for all pick. I've noticed that that gamemode results in pubstomps (3-4 buddies partying together and then picking heroes that compliment each other to a comical degree) and "mid or feed" idiocy a lot more.
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  2. #2682
    Dreadlord Nightfury Treann's Avatar
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    Soonish.
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  3. #2683
    Tree has the best winrate of all heroes. Irony?

    Sven can't be kited because he kills people in three hits. If you survive more than a few hits either you got ridiculously fed or he's an idiot. He gets a battlefury for FREE which means he can farm the jungle with ease naked. Means he can play support early game and very easily transition into a carry late game when he starts farming for carry items. If you want to call that a role, then there you go. He's a carry that doesn't need farm in his early game lane.



    I also agree to not play AP if you're looking for a fair game. AP was the joke mode of DotA1, no one I knew who played competitively ever played AP. It only caught on in DotA2 because it was the only choice. Play RD or SD and you will have a better time. If you really are better than the people you get matched with, pick a hard carry. If you have a new friend with 0 games played so you get matched with far worse players, you will notice it is a LOT easier to win if you pick Luna than if you pick Tide. It's the same in all MOBAs, the carry is just too important to leave to the worst player on the team. Supports are replaceable and, honestly, if the carry gets farmed enough, entirely unnecessary.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-09-21 at 11:07 PM.
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  4. #2684
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Tree has the best winrate of all heroes. Irony?
    can someone explain to me why ? 0o
    i understand lycan
    and ursa
    and lich
    but tree?!

  5. #2685
    The Patient Varix's Avatar
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    Played my first game of Meepo today

    Went 11/6/8, game ended in 33 minutes. Meepo is a lot of fun, but way too stressful for me to play on a regular basis, call me a casual. The game was mainly won by our Enigma who had one 5-man Black Hole after another throughout the game. I felt like I was playing the piano after I hit level 16, I can't imagine what it will be like with Scepter Meepo too.

    I really enjoy Meepo though, I'll be honest. He is a very... different hero. His voice acting is great too, it feels great ganging up on one enemy hero caught out with all of your Meepos. Gotta give some more credit to that Enigma though. 5-man Black Hole, proceed to "Poof" spam, get rampage, win game.

  6. #2686
    i was just forced to play WR mid and damn quick phase boots and force staff helps soooo much getting these double shackles <3

  7. #2687
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Lysah you should be excited about the 6.75 notes. They're buffing the crap out of Gyro, looks like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  8. #2688
    Dreadlord Nightfury Treann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Lysah you should be excited about the 6.75 notes. They're buffing the crap out of Gyro, looks like.
    huh?! what are they gonna do to the Gyro?
    "#Got99ProblemsAndTreannAintOne" ~ElyPop

  9. #2689
    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    but tree?!
    I'm not really sure either. I consider him highly superior to Tide defensively, but it's rare to see someone play him well. It doesn't feel like I see him win much but when I check my friend's records with him they're all 60-70% wins.

    @pizza
    I'm pretty sure Gyro is already the highest burst AoE of any carry by far, what more does he really need? >_>
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  10. #2690
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightFury Treann View Post
    huh?! what are they gonna do to the Gyro?
    Two things that really stood out are he's going to 315 base speed from 305 and his missile will provide vision of the target the entire time.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-22 at 02:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I'm not really sure either. I consider him highly superior to Tide defensively, but it's rare to see someone play him well. It doesn't feel like I see him win much but when I check my friend's records with him they're all 60-70% wins.

    @pizza
    I'm pretty sure Gyro is already the highest burst AoE of any carry by far, what more does he really need? >_>
    Yeah I've never seen a good answer to Tree's unusually high win rate. He just seems like a crappy version of Tidehunter to me. The only thing that would make sense to me is Tree's team using his invisibility constantly and pubs being too stupid to ward or buy dust.

    EDIT: What is the reason for Omniknight and Leoric no longer seeing use? Were they just popular due to a more limited hero roster?
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-09-22 at 07:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  11. #2691
    Tree forces enemy team to waste gold on true sight without the drawback of being a wasted carry pick when they do. Leech seed is a VERY strong move in general, especially early game, and his ult is the ultimate hard carry counter. Yes, you can BKB out of it, but you can't just hold your BKB forever and let supports like Rubick stunfuck you all day. So you use your BKB to go in and try to clear the support out real fast so you don't get chainstunned - ROFLROOTS wasted BKB dead PA.

    Tide is an initiator, Tree is a counter initiator. They have different roles. Of course you're going to get called a noob if you use roots before anyone has used his BKB in a fight.

    I'm not sure why omni/leo aren't common picks these days. Most lineups are ranged oriented, the current professional scene is all about focus poking for kills and retreating during cooldowns, doesn't give you a lot of room for aggressive heroes like leo/omni.
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  12. #2692
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Tree forces enemy team to waste gold on true sight without the drawback of being a wasted carry pick when they do. Leech seed is a VERY strong move in general, especially early game, and his ult is the ultimate hard carry counter. Yes, you can BKB out of it, but you can't just hold your BKB forever and let supports like Rubick stunfuck you all day. So you use your BKB to go in and try to clear the support out real fast so you don't get chainstunned - ROFLROOTS wasted BKB dead PA.

    Tide is an initiator, Tree is a counter initiator. They have different roles. Of course you're going to get called a noob if you use roots before anyone has used his BKB in a fight.

    I'm not sure why omni/leo aren't common picks these days. Most lineups are ranged oriented, the current professional scene is all about focus poking for kills and retreating during cooldowns, doesn't give you a lot of room for aggressive heroes like leo/omni.
    I've never gotten a really straight answer on why a hero would rise up or fall down without changes to the game itself; just because a given team discovered a gimmick that took other teams off guard doesn't mean that new gimmick is the best way to play, or that the previous ways of playing have somehow been invalidated.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-22 at 11:32 AM ----------



    https://dotabuff.com/matches/42832766

    Enemy Profit going full on carry build, spending the entire game farming tells me as a hard support KotL (leaving creep waves and jungle for teammates) to "get carried" as we kill their ancient. Scorecard? This Profit has like 370 gpm. As a full support KotL playing as a 5, I have 320. Get carried, huh?
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-09-22 at 04:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  13. #2693
    Dreadlord Nightfury Treann's Avatar
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    That missile vision is kinda OP, it's like tracking with a Slardar or BH.
    "#Got99ProblemsAndTreannAintOne" ~ElyPop

  14. #2694
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightFury Treann View Post
    That missile vision is kinda OP, it's like tracking with a Slardar or BH.
    I don't think it's gonna be true sight. The notes I was reading was saying it was like revision 17 of 34? I haven't been able to find notes that have a more recent source, though.

    The notes in general are a fucking mess, there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to where given changes go, they definitely aren't grouped by hero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  15. #2695
    leaked patch notes were (most likely) for internal tests only

  16. #2696
    The Patient hellgrazer's Avatar
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    i really want to see some morphling nerfs...

  17. #2697
    Quote Originally Posted by hellgrazer View Post
    i really want to see some morphling nerfs...
    If they give Morphling anything other than minor number nerfs, he'll probably go back to never being picked again in competitive games faster than you can say trend shift. I'd be sad, it wasn't long ago when I cheered for Morphling every game he was picked in in Joindota Masters after a long dry period.

    It's probably just me but I don't think almost any heroes really need nerfs, just looking forward to seeing some (Clockwerk) buffed and how the map changes play out.



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  18. #2698
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    It's probably just me but I don't think almost any heroes really need nerfs, just looking forward to seeing some (Clockwerk) buffed and how the map changes play out.
    yeah im also expecting buffs of underplayed heroes

    its funny how ppl scream morph OP while not so long ago he was trash pick

  19. #2699
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I've never gotten a really straight answer on why a hero would rise up or fall down without changes to the game itself; just because a given team discovered a gimmick that took other teams off guard doesn't mean that new gimmick is the best way to play, or that the previous ways of playing have somehow been invalidated.
    You might recall how I've explained that pros do NOT try new things in tournaments when money is on the line. DotA is pretty balanced, no hero is really that much better than any other, and every playstyle has a counter. You can stop wolf from jungling, in fact, a while back wolf was a joke pick in competitive play for this reason. AM has also gone through his joke pick phase, as well as morphling, as has been said.

    Although, morphling didn't used to get free stats from learning morph, which is the main change that took him from "meh" to "GG they picked morph." His ability to farm used to be anywhere from low to extremely terrible and he was shut down in lane by a number of heroes. Now he just morphs agility at level 3 and has 90 damage, he can just morph strength the second he gets jumped on. Silence needs to turn morph strength off and I'll be happy.

    Heroes like Tiny have been huge in the past, and you saw how quickly he got banned in TI2 when he got used again. It's not really about gimmicks, think of it this way. DotA is a giant game a rock, paper, scissors. Currently, the pros have rock down to an art. They both pick rock and they see who can be a better rock. When someone figures out how to play paper, they're going to start crushing rock over and over and over. You think the old rock players are going to start playing scissors? Nope, they're going to start copying paper and trying to simply be a better paper. Trying to come up with new strategies in the middle of tournaments is how you lose a lot of money.

    Heroes like Invoker will probably always be huge picks because they aren't really countered. Carries will come and go, however, as will supports. Hybrids are generally just too good at what they do to ever be bad picks by definition. Support carries are incredibly popular right now, but they always will be to some degree, just because the concept of someone who can put out consistent and reliable CC while also doing damage is exactly what you need to do to secure kills.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-09-22 at 10:05 PM.
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  20. #2700
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post

    Heroes like Tiny have been huge in the past, and you saw how quickly he got banned in TI2 when he got used again. It's not really about gimmicks, think of it this way. DotA is a giant game a rock, paper, scissors. Currently, the pros have rock down to an art. They both pick rock and they see who can be a better rock. When someone figures out how to play paper, they're going to start crushing rock over and over and over. You think the old rock players are going to start playing scissors? Nope, they're going to start copying paper and trying to simply be a better paper. Trying to come up with new strategies in the middle of tournaments is how you lose a lot of money.
    I have to disagree here, most of the pro teams(esp chinese) do indeed draft only from the certain hero pool, but there are plenty of teams who come up with their own thing like Na´vi did with Juggernaut and Void picks during TI2.
    Or for example Axe was picked several times before TI2, during Defense or Dreamcast im not sure which one anymore.But every once in a while teams do draft unusually.


    On topic of Omni, during one of the talkdota´s someone asked Puppey why he wasnt picked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_Q0AW0xRNk 08:20

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