1. #3681
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    The burden of proof lies on the individual asserting a claim. In this case, that would be you. Hermanni does not need to "counter-argument". Back up what the fuck you're saying with proof.
    I can't back up a statement about Morphling being OP before the nerf with hard facts, cause it is subjective in a way. Maybe Hermanni's views of OP are differen't than mine, and think Morph should be able 1v4 a team every game and still be O.K. and balanced since there is a banning and pick phase.

    And even if 99% of the population thinks something is OP, there is always someone who think's it is not.

    But why does the burden of proof lie with me? He is the one claiming he was NOT OP to other people, so HE made the claim about morphling. He got nerfed, so the general consensus at valve was obviously that he was OP. A lot of pro's also thought Naga(Nerfed) and Morphling(Nerfed) was OP, yet he is the one claiming: "No he was not that good for x, y reasons".. Which I might say were all pretty much wrong, so I question his game knowledge tbh.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 10:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I kind of wanted to stop posting to this, but like I edited into my last post, I don't really feel like I have to prove anything when he does it for me. Example:



    This post is uses hyperbole. If it's not obvious, you need to retake some literature. So from where I look at it, if he wants to get back at me because I was trying to point out his posts are overly hyperbolic and not very well argued by making a post like this (that is a hyperbole), there isn't much left for me to prove, no?


    Well, at least Loda made himself worth it in fantasyleague. If only I had checked which teams actually played today more carefully.
    Yes, that post is hyperbolic.

    And no, my previous posts about Morphling are not. If anything, what you wrote about him was meiosis. You are also the one using ad hominem arguments against Pizza all the time, so good job.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 10:31 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Oh god. Have you ever played morphling? You can't just shotgun people, not without solid amount of points in agility which gaining some hp will take time. 800 was just a number, sometimes you need less, sometimes you need more but you just can't replicate back to 3-sec-distance and then come right click people because you will die instantly if they focus on you. Amount of str pomped will not be sufficient if enemy got some burst..If you forgot str morph toggled in cc that means you will losing right click power means rest of your fight is fucked. Morphling is not shift-que'ing three spells.

    All of your argument assumes a perfect initialization of morphling then replicating back to some perfect/magic spot which is not far away and the moment you came, somehow, morph having more right click steroid than AM and at the same time having more hp than a AM(AM builds involve vanguard you know that right? if you exclude previous trend of going straight bfury) while half of str is morphed to agi and managing to survive throughout team fight.

    Is this some sort of super morphling you are talking about or the one I know? Also There is too much assumption here.
    Go watch a old replay of Morphling before the nerf, I seems to me you just started playing after he was nerfed. THERE IS NO NEED FOR STRENGTH MORPHING, you are sitting at 1str but 900-2000hp and invulnerable while shotgunning someone, then in the teamfight you jump in AFTER say tidehunter and clean up. Oh and 190-250+ agi = Shit tons of armor, so good lucking focusing him. (Probably a linkens too to stop that spell)

    You once went vanguard/vlads on AM..And why does this pop up in the conversation? I am talking about the current trend anyhow. AM with Vanguard sucks anyway, since you might as well NOT pick AM at all if aren't gonna rice him.

    Give me a hard carry that has 2 escape mechanisms and 2 nukes with low cd's, one stun/mini stun, 1 full health illusion that deals 50% damage you can use on enemy carry but doesn't take more damage than a normal hero, has awesome stat gains(+10 on top of that), some of the best last hitting power in lanning, and can right click I will say better than an AM, slightly worse than a PA/Void. Oh and is Ranged. Oh and is the most mobile hard carry in the game, maybe shares that spot with Spectre and AM.
    Last edited by MasterOfInvocation; 2012-11-23 at 09:46 AM.

  2. #3682
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Tobi's been turning me off the same way Husky started turning me off. Especially when he's solo casting, it becomes increasingly obvious that he doesn't know a whole lot about what he's talking about, and he often misses a lot of important things, or he watches something and comments on it incorrectly. He's much better when he has a very skilled player/commentator joining him (like when Day9 joined with Husky for certain events) to be there to constantly correct him, but at that point you might as well just go "okay Tobi, go take a break, we got this."
    To be honest, Day9 is the most overrated caster. He pretends he knows alot, but doesnt anymore, his analysis is most of the time wrong and he has became Totalbiscuit 2.0 with his shoutcasting instead of commentating in the last year or so. You wanna hear good caster? Look for HSC 3 or 4 where players are commentating or just listen to Grubby commentating, they might not shout like mad during some engagements, but they actually provide good analysis.

    To me, Day9 and Tobi are pretty much the same. They bring newbies to the scene and excite them for the game, but lack the highest level of knowledge and experience of their game, which makes their commentating for higher skilled players/wievers a turnoff.

  3. #3683
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    11,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    To be honest, Day9 is the most overrated caster. He pretends he knows alot, but doesnt anymore, his analysis is most of the time wrong and he has became Totalbiscuit 2.0 with his shoutcasting instead of commentating in the last year or so. You wanna hear good caster? Look for HSC 3 or 4 where players are commentating or just listen to Grubby commentating, they might not shout like mad during some engagements, but they actually provide good analysis.

    To me, Day9 and Tobi are pretty much the same. They bring newbies to the scene and excite them for the game, but lack the highest level of knowledge and experience of their game, which makes their commentating for higher skilled players/wievers a turnoff.
    I'll be honest, I haven't watched a bit of SC2 in probably six to eight months. If Day9's changed since then, I honestly wouldn't have noticed; I do know that he was expanding into non-SC2 at the time, but his main draw was still his Day9 Dailies and his casting lower-tier professional tournaments.

    Blizzard's ham-fisted way of handling SC2 kind of turned me off to the whole thing, especially now that it looks like they're dangling Heart of the Swarm in front of players as "come on little fella, buy it! Buy it! It'll fix eeeeeeverything...."
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  4. #3684
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I dunno. Dota is a fun game, but I'm having an increasingly difficult time taking it seriously as a true competitive eSport because I just feel there are too many poor design choices in it that shift the burden away from individual player skill/APM and towards just memorizing information.

    I would still point towards Brood War as the best example of an asymmetrical game that incorporates roughly equal requirements of both skill/APM and game knowledge for professional play, and which is balanced exceptionally well. But, just like chess, that took a long time to get to that point, and it's still not perfectly balanced.
    What Kuntantee has been trying to point out to you is that when every played in the game sits on essentially the same amount of knowledge and experience, you don't win games with those. Like he pointed out, knowledge alone mostly wins games in low rated games. What "skill" is is very different in different games, I myself don't really put much base on any FPS "skill" because to me it seems to be just memorizing maps and twitch reflex. I'm obviously idiot and wrong because I've never actually followed any, but that's still my opinion.

    Playing Brood War at high level requires you to know all the timings, all the builds and all the maps, which is also a lot of knowledge but your enemy probably knows all you do to, too. For example sensing drops is one very obvious marker of player skill, but why doesn't "map sense" in dota have anything to do with skill? How is being able to predict enemy movement not skill in any game?

    If you scrapped and started over, you'd probably end up creating LoL. LoL might even be more balanced, I don't really know, but considering how much less complex it is it very well could be. But competitive LoL seems one of the most boring things out there, and I've been repeatedly told those games often boil down to lasthitting. But hey, that takes skill.

    If you didn't create LoL, what would your game look like, then? It's easy to design one, so why don't you give some pointers? How do you make a game that is at least as interesting as dota, but isn't dota, but is more balanced than dota? Don't think it should take you more than few minutes to do better than mushroom-eating Icefrog did in 7 years (+ whatever the other devs and Valve staff did), so I'm all ears.

    Anyway, I'm having hard time seeing how reflex and APM are better markers of skill than strategy and decision making, both of which derive from game knowledge and often require split-second decision. You increase your ability to punish your peripherals by practicing, which is also true for your strategic abilities.


    Edit: Coincidentally, it didn't even take long for Brood War to get to any point. Story of Brood War was that it was from the beginning accepted as fairly balanced, and while I might recall incorrectly I don't think many balances change were made to it. Original SC is a different deal, though.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-11-23 at 12:06 PM.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  5. #3685
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    11,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Anyway, I'm having hard time seeing how reflex and APM are better markers of skill than strategy and decision making, both of which derive from game knowledge and often require split-second decision. You increase your ability to punish your peripherals by practicing, which is also true for your strategic abilities.
    Because reflexes and APM aren't easily acquired. Game sense is just based purely off of knowing the game and having played many, many games, and it's something your acquire pretty organically unless you have some kind of developmental disability. It's very obvious in low MMR games, where that lack of knowledge is the most noticeable difference. But it can still be seen in pro games, especially when a team like Na'Vi pulls a wildcard and tries something out of the norm, something that might not have been bootcamped constantly.

    If you scrapped and started over, you'd probably end up creating LoL. LoL might even be more balanced, I don't really know, but considering how much less complex it is it very well could be. But competitive LoL seems one of the most boring things out there, and I've been repeatedly told those games often boil down to lasthitting. But hey, that takes skill.

    If you didn't create LoL, what would your game look like, then? It's easy to design one, so why don't you give some pointers? How do you make a game that is at least as interesting as dota, but isn't dota, but is more balanced than dota? Don't think it should take you more than few minutes to do better than mushroom-eating Icefrog did in 7 years (+ whatever the other devs and Valve staff did), so I'm all ears.
    I agree it would probably look similar to LoL if we're keeping as close as possible to the standard parts of the MOBA genre. I think LoL is as boring and static as it is because of the changes to items, however - most of the items in LoL can be boiled down to stats-per-gold, leading to very little variation, and most items don't have activated abilities like they do in Dota. For what it's worth, I disagree with several choices made in LoL, though I think those choices were made to make it easier and more accessible to newcomers (removal of denies, replacing trees with bushes, replacing runes with static camp spawns, etc.)

    Removing RNG from the game would take several iterations and different ways of dealing with the problem. The problem with RNG mechanics is that they take place independent of player action. PA can blink to someone, never get a crit, and die horribly. She can also blink to someone and crit with her first two swings and kill them before they can even panic-mash their Blade Mail button. In both cases, both players did the exact same thing, and in both cases there was a different outcome - wholly independent of player actions. Aside from the instant gratification of LOLSPLAT when you get one of those fat four digit crits on your first swing, I don't find it entertaining and don't find it a good measure of player ability. Same thing goes for Chaos Bolt (2 sec stun versus 4 sec stun, etc) and even just plain old critical strike and evasion effects like Juggy, Panda, etc.

    In most cases, you'd either want the effects to scale based on something the player controls (maybe your next Chaos Bolt will stun for longer, up to a maximum duration, based on the time elapsed since the cooldown finished) or a more static, activated ability (push Coup De Grace, your attacks now do extra damage for X duration.) Both are more boring than pure RNG, especially the second option, but both are a lot easier to balance, too.

    As far as stuns and stuff go? Well, I already mentioned that I think stuns should do noticeably less damage than nukes which don't come with significant disables - maybe as much as 20% less, though I get the feeling even a 10% drop would be pretty noticeable.

    Maybe it's just a lack of transparency. We never get any idea of what Icefrog and his team are up to, so we have no idea if they've tried something and found it didn't work. Maybe they tried nerfing stun damage and it ended up making heroes too weak - but how do we know that when they're keeping their cards close to their vest?

    Edit: Coincidentally, it didn't even take long for Brood War to get to any point. Story of Brood War was that it was from the beginning accepted as fairly balanced, and while I might recall incorrectly I don't think many balances change were made to it. Original SC is a different deal, though.
    It was a LOT better than vanilla SC, but I think it wasn't considered well-balanced until after a couple of patches, and even then it didn't reach its "perfect," state until years after, when players started discovering ways of abusing loopholes and issues with the game engine.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  6. #3686
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Because reflexes and APM aren't easily acquired. Game sense is just based purely off of knowing the game and having played many, many games, and it's something your acquire pretty organically unless you have some kind of developmental disability. It's very obvious in low MMR games, where that lack of knowledge is the most noticeable difference. But it can still be seen in pro games, especially when a team like Na'Vi pulls a wildcard and tries something out of the norm, something that might not have been bootcamped constantly.
    Game sense is based on a lot more than having played many, many games. Knowing your enemy is one of them. I still think being able to master an equally acknowledgeable enemy in a game as complex as dota is more admirable than shooting someone in cs because your synapse routing is better. Which is also something you acquire pretty organically (unless you have some developmental disorder) by playing a lot.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-11-23 at 02:21 PM.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  7. #3687
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    11,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Game sense is based on a lot more than having played many, many games. Knowing your enemy is one of them. I still think being able to master an equally acknowledgeable enemy in a game as complex as dota is more admirable than shooting someone in cs because your synapse routing is better. Which is also something you acquire pretty organically (unless you have some developmental disorder) by playing a lot.
    I agree, I might have been selling game sense a little short when you put it that way.

    That said, I'm talking about Quake, not CS - there's a world of difference between the two and Quake is a lot more demanding. In addition to memorizing respawn times for medpacks, quad damage, etc, you also have to be able to (very, very quickly) set up shots while avoiding enemy shots. You have to predict where your enemy is going, have the rocket in the air well before he gets there, and continue to have rockets in position - ahead of time - to ensure you juggle him properly.

    If you've seen highlight reels from TF2 where soldiers juggle someone to death (launch them into the air with the first rocket and hit them in midair with consecutive rockets until they die), it's a lot like that - but at about four times the speed.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  8. #3688
    Watching people play Q3 makes me feel like a child.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  9. #3689
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    That said, I'm talking about Quake, not CS - there's a world of difference between the two and Quake is a lot more demanding. In addition to memorizing respawn times for medpacks, quad damage, etc, you also have to be able to (very, very quickly) set up shots while avoiding enemy shots. You have to predict where your enemy is going, have the rocket in the air well before he gets there, and continue to have rockets in position - ahead of time - to ensure you juggle him properly.

    If you've seen highlight reels from TF2 where soldiers juggle someone to death (launch them into the air with the first rocket and hit them in midair with consecutive rockets until they die), it's a lot like that - but at about four times the speed.
    The most difficult aspect of Quake 3 and Quake Live is counting respawn timers of items and weapons, and bunnyhopping/air control. The second one is something you will get by just playing lots - it is incredibly frustrating to practice (I spent fourty five hours during a LAN party practicing the b2r jump on qzdm6). Everything else is knowledge of maps and twitch reflexes. Hitting a guy with rocket launchers twice in the air is something you see in the mid-skill bracket consistently. It's not an indication of a great player (or even a good one).

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfInvocation View Post
    I can't back up a statement about Morphling being OP before the nerf with hard facts, cause it is subjective in a way. Maybe Hermanni's views of OP are differen't than mine, and think Morph should be able 1v4 a team every game and still be O.K. and balanced since there is a banning and pick phase. .
    What game did he 1v4 a team? You could provide examples instead of just listing your hypothetical examples of biased situations. You could provide match ID numbers, you could provide stats via a parser site like dota-academy.com. There are plenty of ways you could back your statements up, surely you understand when other people do not take your arguments as serious posts. No? How is it subjective? "I think this hero is OP" - in what situation? In what skill bracket? In what team composition? Against underfarmed, overextended support heroes played by a guy emulating Windows 2000 and running 3000ms+ ping? Against an actual professional player in a non-public game setting?

    If all you say is "this is OP" or "this does too much damage" or "lol replicate ANYWHERE INSTANT!!", no one will respond to you with anything even remotely serious.

    Additionally, Sven 3-10, Dark Seer 2-13, Rubick 5-11 at DHW. Surprise anyone? Sven stun OP? Dark Seer offlane OP? cmon son damn
    Last edited by Longview; 2012-11-23 at 09:38 PM.

  10. #3690
    Dark seer been getting some serious rape in DHW. Also, since when is Sven OP?

  11. #3691
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    since when is Sven OP?
    how unavoidable no skill nuke-stun is not op ?
    ;p

  12. #3692
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    Dark seer been getting some serious rape in DHW. Also, since when is Sven OP?
    h-h-h-h-here we go

  13. #3693
    Sven won't perform well as long as people keep playing around early game teams. As a lane support who transitions to take the jungle so that he can turn into a carry he is great, but I still believe people are trying to make him something he is not. Perhaps people watching the current pro scene can examine this in more detail.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  14. #3694
    Sven just needs farm to be effective. He's going to be taking farm away from carries in pubs, and even then, Sven's effectiveness diminishes with every CC effect he takes, and plus, his ult is purgeable. It's just really rare to see a good Sven nowadays, unless he's being handled by a pro or the other team is disorganized.

  15. #3695
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    6,398
    Quote Originally Posted by audist View Post
    Sven just needs farm to be effective. He's going to be taking farm away from carries in pubs, and even then, Sven's effectiveness diminishes with every CC effect he takes, and plus, his ult is purgeable. It's just really rare to see a good Sven nowadays, unless he's being handled by a pro or the other team is disorganized.
    ^^^this

    Just had a 1-10 sven, didnt even notice until the naixx in his lane came down and literally 1 shot me on rhasta. <--not amused.

  16. #3696
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    11,552
    Quote Originally Posted by audist View Post
    Sven just needs farm to be effective. He's going to be taking farm away from carries in pubs, and even then, Sven's effectiveness diminishes with every CC effect he takes, and plus, his ult is purgeable. It's just really rare to see a good Sven nowadays, unless he's being handled by a pro or the other team is disorganized.
    Sven's ulti can't be purged in Dota 2, thankfully.

    Sven, like several other heroes, is a very strong pick, but he requires certain playstyles and lineups for effectiveness, which don't seem to be things pro teams are currently interested in doing. His stun is OP as hell, but that stun alone isn't reason enough to pick him if you aren't going to play to his other strengths. I've seen similar things with Omniknight (being played as a 5 and therefore being pretty much useless all game), and if pro teams ever picked Dazzle, we'd also probably see it.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  17. #3697
    Aggressive supports certainly are not "in" right now.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  18. #3698
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    11,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Aggressive supports certainly are not "in" right now.
    They would be if pros played to have fun
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  19. #3699
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Sven's ulti can't be purged in Dota 2, thankfully.
    wha?
    How come ?
    And I didnt notice..?

  20. #3700
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    11,552
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    wha?
    How come ?
    And I didnt notice..?
    I don't think it was ever intended to be purge-able, but engine issues with War3 prevented them from flagging it that way.

    Also, a lot of effects that BKB purged back in War3 aren't purged in Dota 2 - again, due to differences in the game engines, I think.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •