1. #3681
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I dunno. Dota is a fun game, but I'm having an increasingly difficult time taking it seriously as a true competitive eSport because I just feel there are too many poor design choices in it that shift the burden away from individual player skill/APM and towards just memorizing information.

    I would still point towards Brood War as the best example of an asymmetrical game that incorporates roughly equal requirements of both skill/APM and game knowledge for professional play, and which is balanced exceptionally well. But, just like chess, that took a long time to get to that point, and it's still not perfectly balanced.
    What Kuntantee has been trying to point out to you is that when every played in the game sits on essentially the same amount of knowledge and experience, you don't win games with those. Like he pointed out, knowledge alone mostly wins games in low rated games. What "skill" is is very different in different games, I myself don't really put much base on any FPS "skill" because to me it seems to be just memorizing maps and twitch reflex. I'm obviously idiot and wrong because I've never actually followed any, but that's still my opinion.

    Playing Brood War at high level requires you to know all the timings, all the builds and all the maps, which is also a lot of knowledge but your enemy probably knows all you do to, too. For example sensing drops is one very obvious marker of player skill, but why doesn't "map sense" in dota have anything to do with skill? How is being able to predict enemy movement not skill in any game?

    If you scrapped and started over, you'd probably end up creating LoL. LoL might even be more balanced, I don't really know, but considering how much less complex it is it very well could be. But competitive LoL seems one of the most boring things out there, and I've been repeatedly told those games often boil down to lasthitting. But hey, that takes skill.

    If you didn't create LoL, what would your game look like, then? It's easy to design one, so why don't you give some pointers? How do you make a game that is at least as interesting as dota, but isn't dota, but is more balanced than dota? Don't think it should take you more than few minutes to do better than mushroom-eating Icefrog did in 7 years (+ whatever the other devs and Valve staff did), so I'm all ears.

    Anyway, I'm having hard time seeing how reflex and APM are better markers of skill than strategy and decision making, both of which derive from game knowledge and often require split-second decision. You increase your ability to punish your peripherals by practicing, which is also true for your strategic abilities.


    Edit: Coincidentally, it didn't even take long for Brood War to get to any point. Story of Brood War was that it was from the beginning accepted as fairly balanced, and while I might recall incorrectly I don't think many balances change were made to it. Original SC is a different deal, though.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-11-23 at 12:06 PM.

  2. #3682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Anyway, I'm having hard time seeing how reflex and APM are better markers of skill than strategy and decision making, both of which derive from game knowledge and often require split-second decision. You increase your ability to punish your peripherals by practicing, which is also true for your strategic abilities.
    Because reflexes and APM aren't easily acquired. Game sense is just based purely off of knowing the game and having played many, many games, and it's something your acquire pretty organically unless you have some kind of developmental disability. It's very obvious in low MMR games, where that lack of knowledge is the most noticeable difference. But it can still be seen in pro games, especially when a team like Na'Vi pulls a wildcard and tries something out of the norm, something that might not have been bootcamped constantly.

    If you scrapped and started over, you'd probably end up creating LoL. LoL might even be more balanced, I don't really know, but considering how much less complex it is it very well could be. But competitive LoL seems one of the most boring things out there, and I've been repeatedly told those games often boil down to lasthitting. But hey, that takes skill.

    If you didn't create LoL, what would your game look like, then? It's easy to design one, so why don't you give some pointers? How do you make a game that is at least as interesting as dota, but isn't dota, but is more balanced than dota? Don't think it should take you more than few minutes to do better than mushroom-eating Icefrog did in 7 years (+ whatever the other devs and Valve staff did), so I'm all ears.
    I agree it would probably look similar to LoL if we're keeping as close as possible to the standard parts of the MOBA genre. I think LoL is as boring and static as it is because of the changes to items, however - most of the items in LoL can be boiled down to stats-per-gold, leading to very little variation, and most items don't have activated abilities like they do in Dota. For what it's worth, I disagree with several choices made in LoL, though I think those choices were made to make it easier and more accessible to newcomers (removal of denies, replacing trees with bushes, replacing runes with static camp spawns, etc.)

    Removing RNG from the game would take several iterations and different ways of dealing with the problem. The problem with RNG mechanics is that they take place independent of player action. PA can blink to someone, never get a crit, and die horribly. She can also blink to someone and crit with her first two swings and kill them before they can even panic-mash their Blade Mail button. In both cases, both players did the exact same thing, and in both cases there was a different outcome - wholly independent of player actions. Aside from the instant gratification of LOLSPLAT when you get one of those fat four digit crits on your first swing, I don't find it entertaining and don't find it a good measure of player ability. Same thing goes for Chaos Bolt (2 sec stun versus 4 sec stun, etc) and even just plain old critical strike and evasion effects like Juggy, Panda, etc.

    In most cases, you'd either want the effects to scale based on something the player controls (maybe your next Chaos Bolt will stun for longer, up to a maximum duration, based on the time elapsed since the cooldown finished) or a more static, activated ability (push Coup De Grace, your attacks now do extra damage for X duration.) Both are more boring than pure RNG, especially the second option, but both are a lot easier to balance, too.

    As far as stuns and stuff go? Well, I already mentioned that I think stuns should do noticeably less damage than nukes which don't come with significant disables - maybe as much as 20% less, though I get the feeling even a 10% drop would be pretty noticeable.

    Maybe it's just a lack of transparency. We never get any idea of what Icefrog and his team are up to, so we have no idea if they've tried something and found it didn't work. Maybe they tried nerfing stun damage and it ended up making heroes too weak - but how do we know that when they're keeping their cards close to their vest?

    Edit: Coincidentally, it didn't even take long for Brood War to get to any point. Story of Brood War was that it was from the beginning accepted as fairly balanced, and while I might recall incorrectly I don't think many balances change were made to it. Original SC is a different deal, though.
    It was a LOT better than vanilla SC, but I think it wasn't considered well-balanced until after a couple of patches, and even then it didn't reach its "perfect," state until years after, when players started discovering ways of abusing loopholes and issues with the game engine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  3. #3683
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Because reflexes and APM aren't easily acquired. Game sense is just based purely off of knowing the game and having played many, many games, and it's something your acquire pretty organically unless you have some kind of developmental disability. It's very obvious in low MMR games, where that lack of knowledge is the most noticeable difference. But it can still be seen in pro games, especially when a team like Na'Vi pulls a wildcard and tries something out of the norm, something that might not have been bootcamped constantly.
    Game sense is based on a lot more than having played many, many games. Knowing your enemy is one of them. I still think being able to master an equally acknowledgeable enemy in a game as complex as dota is more admirable than shooting someone in cs because your synapse routing is better. Which is also something you acquire pretty organically (unless you have some developmental disorder) by playing a lot.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-11-23 at 02:21 PM.

  4. #3684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Game sense is based on a lot more than having played many, many games. Knowing your enemy is one of them. I still think being able to master an equally acknowledgeable enemy in a game as complex as dota is more admirable than shooting someone in cs because your synapse routing is better. Which is also something you acquire pretty organically (unless you have some developmental disorder) by playing a lot.
    I agree, I might have been selling game sense a little short when you put it that way.

    That said, I'm talking about Quake, not CS - there's a world of difference between the two and Quake is a lot more demanding. In addition to memorizing respawn times for medpacks, quad damage, etc, you also have to be able to (very, very quickly) set up shots while avoiding enemy shots. You have to predict where your enemy is going, have the rocket in the air well before he gets there, and continue to have rockets in position - ahead of time - to ensure you juggle him properly.

    If you've seen highlight reels from TF2 where soldiers juggle someone to death (launch them into the air with the first rocket and hit them in midair with consecutive rockets until they die), it's a lot like that - but at about four times the speed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  5. #3685
    Watching people play Q3 makes me feel like a child.

  6. #3686
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    That said, I'm talking about Quake, not CS - there's a world of difference between the two and Quake is a lot more demanding. In addition to memorizing respawn times for medpacks, quad damage, etc, you also have to be able to (very, very quickly) set up shots while avoiding enemy shots. You have to predict where your enemy is going, have the rocket in the air well before he gets there, and continue to have rockets in position - ahead of time - to ensure you juggle him properly.

    If you've seen highlight reels from TF2 where soldiers juggle someone to death (launch them into the air with the first rocket and hit them in midair with consecutive rockets until they die), it's a lot like that - but at about four times the speed.
    The most difficult aspect of Quake 3 and Quake Live is counting respawn timers of items and weapons, and bunnyhopping/air control. The second one is something you will get by just playing lots - it is incredibly frustrating to practice (I spent fourty five hours during a LAN party practicing the b2r jump on qzdm6). Everything else is knowledge of maps and twitch reflexes. Hitting a guy with rocket launchers twice in the air is something you see in the mid-skill bracket consistently. It's not an indication of a great player (or even a good one).

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterOfInvocation View Post
    I can't back up a statement about Morphling being OP before the nerf with hard facts, cause it is subjective in a way. Maybe Hermanni's views of OP are differen't than mine, and think Morph should be able 1v4 a team every game and still be O.K. and balanced since there is a banning and pick phase. .
    What game did he 1v4 a team? You could provide examples instead of just listing your hypothetical examples of biased situations. You could provide match ID numbers, you could provide stats via a parser site like dota-academy.com. There are plenty of ways you could back your statements up, surely you understand when other people do not take your arguments as serious posts. No? How is it subjective? "I think this hero is OP" - in what situation? In what skill bracket? In what team composition? Against underfarmed, overextended support heroes played by a guy emulating Windows 2000 and running 3000ms+ ping? Against an actual professional player in a non-public game setting?

    If all you say is "this is OP" or "this does too much damage" or "lol replicate ANYWHERE INSTANT!!", no one will respond to you with anything even remotely serious.

    Additionally, Sven 3-10, Dark Seer 2-13, Rubick 5-11 at DHW. Surprise anyone? Sven stun OP? Dark Seer offlane OP? cmon son damn
    Last edited by Longview; 2012-11-23 at 09:38 PM.

  7. #3687
    Dark seer been getting some serious rape in DHW. Also, since when is Sven OP?

  8. #3688
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    since when is Sven OP?
    how unavoidable no skill nuke-stun is not op ?
    ;p

  9. #3689
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    Dark seer been getting some serious rape in DHW. Also, since when is Sven OP?
    h-h-h-h-here we go

  10. #3690
    Sven won't perform well as long as people keep playing around early game teams. As a lane support who transitions to take the jungle so that he can turn into a carry he is great, but I still believe people are trying to make him something he is not. Perhaps people watching the current pro scene can examine this in more detail.

  11. #3691
    Sven just needs farm to be effective. He's going to be taking farm away from carries in pubs, and even then, Sven's effectiveness diminishes with every CC effect he takes, and plus, his ult is purgeable. It's just really rare to see a good Sven nowadays, unless he's being handled by a pro or the other team is disorganized.

  12. #3692
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    Quote Originally Posted by audist View Post
    Sven just needs farm to be effective. He's going to be taking farm away from carries in pubs, and even then, Sven's effectiveness diminishes with every CC effect he takes, and plus, his ult is purgeable. It's just really rare to see a good Sven nowadays, unless he's being handled by a pro or the other team is disorganized.
    ^^^this

    Just had a 1-10 sven, didnt even notice until the naixx in his lane came down and literally 1 shot me on rhasta. <--not amused.

  13. #3693
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    Quote Originally Posted by audist View Post
    Sven just needs farm to be effective. He's going to be taking farm away from carries in pubs, and even then, Sven's effectiveness diminishes with every CC effect he takes, and plus, his ult is purgeable. It's just really rare to see a good Sven nowadays, unless he's being handled by a pro or the other team is disorganized.
    Sven's ulti can't be purged in Dota 2, thankfully.

    Sven, like several other heroes, is a very strong pick, but he requires certain playstyles and lineups for effectiveness, which don't seem to be things pro teams are currently interested in doing. His stun is OP as hell, but that stun alone isn't reason enough to pick him if you aren't going to play to his other strengths. I've seen similar things with Omniknight (being played as a 5 and therefore being pretty much useless all game), and if pro teams ever picked Dazzle, we'd also probably see it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  14. #3694
    Aggressive supports certainly are not "in" right now.

  15. #3695
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Aggressive supports certainly are not "in" right now.
    They would be if pros played to have fun
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  16. #3696
    Herald of the Titans Storm the Sorrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Sven's ulti can't be purged in Dota 2, thankfully.
    wha?
    How come ?
    And I didnt notice..?

  17. #3697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    wha?
    How come ?
    And I didnt notice..?
    I don't think it was ever intended to be purge-able, but engine issues with War3 prevented them from flagging it that way.

    Also, a lot of effects that BKB purged back in War3 aren't purged in Dota 2 - again, due to differences in the game engines, I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  18. #3698
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I don't think it was ever intended to be purge-able, but engine issues with War3 prevented them from flagging it that way.
    not true since 6.73

  19. #3699
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    What game did he 1v4 a team? You could provide examples instead of just listing your hypothetical examples of biased situations. You could provide match ID numbers, you could provide stats via a parser site like dota-academy.com. There are plenty of ways you could back your statements up, surely you understand when other people do not take your arguments as serious posts. No? How is it subjective? "I think this hero is OP" - in what situation? In what skill bracket? In what team composition? Against underfarmed, overextended support heroes played by a guy emulating Windows 2000 and running 3000ms+ ping? Against an actual professional player in a non-public game setting?

    If all you say is "this is OP" or "this does too much damage" or "lol replicate ANYWHERE INSTANT!!", no one will respond to you with anything even remotely serious.
    NONONONO.

    Even if I bring a replay where morphling won a game he shouldn't have, people will come up with tons of excuses: "MORPH GOT FED GG SCRUBS" or "ENEMY TEAM THROWING GG"

    And I am talking about high+ skill pub to pro play. I don't really care too much about pubs in the first place, but I am obviously not talking about games where people just auto-attack, cause then Ursa is OP.

    Again, he got nerfed - So obviously people/developers agree with me, so the burden of proof lies with you that he SHOULDN'T have been nerfed

  20. #3700
    Here are some actual statistics from before 6.75, enjoy

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