[Megathread] DotA 2

[Hermanni]

It's actually pretty remarkable how easy it is to throw people off-balance in MM by sending a good dual lane to hard lane because most of the time people expect you to have a solo. Or at least in the higher MMR range they do. 2 ranged heroes or any decent lane can fuck over enemy carries, especially melee carries, and if enemy lane isn't good and they have some useless jungler and even more useless offlane there's nothing they can do to save that lane.

[Morally Grey Storm]

my assumption was because you were describing how hard it is to play support (at times, not all the time). Would kinda of make since to post a guide for "possible things one could do" when having a bad/hard game as support. Weather or not he(she? it?) meant it as a direct reply for you. well... they will need to post about their intentions.

I was NOT talking about ha
ow hard it is to play support, I was saying that people seem to assume support is FORCED and MUST buy and SUPPORT and ROAM/PULL no matter the odds and circumstances.

[Lysah]

It's actually pretty remarkable how easy it is to throw people off-balance in MM by sending a good dual lane to hard lane because most of the time people expect you to have a solo. Or at least in the higher MMR range they do. 2 ranged heroes or any decent lane can fuck over enemy carries, especially melee carries, and if enemy lane isn't good and they have some useless jungler and even more useless offlane there's nothing they can do to save that lane.

Go top as SF -
Enemy enchantress jungling in MY jungle and N'aix mysteriously avoids ever fighting her.

[Longview]

Go top as SF -
Enemy enchantress jungling in MY jungle and N'aix mysteriously avoids ever fighting her.

If that is a jungling N'aix I can understand. Unless he's pooled (which he wouldn't be in the jungle), there's no way he can stand his ground versus an Enchantress even from level 1.

[Lysah]

If that is a jungling N'aix I can understand. Unless he's pooled (which he wouldn't be in the jungle), there's no way he can stand his ground versus an Enchantress even from level 1.

She has 500 max health and he has open wounds and an ally SF, ganks should have been extremely easy but I never even got vision of their enchantress. After her first gank failed I assumed she would stop risking getting caught and go back to her lane - nope, I had to deal with her for a solid 10 minutes of early game and not once did N'aix leave the two right most camps of our scourge's jungle to even TRY to help me out (I'm pretty sure he was letting me lose on purpose, by the way).

Open wounds > razeRAZELOL would've been free kills all day, or at least, if he could just check the left camps from time to time to show me where she is, that would've been fantastic. I didn't actually start dying until Puck got 6, then coil + enchantress creeps was game over.

The game was just a great example of how to turn a very easy lane into an impossible lane simply by not being a useful jungler.

[Longview]

not once did N'aix leave the two right most camps of our scourge's jungle

shit dude that's some inefficient jungling

dire has a fantastic jungle

[Lysah]

I'm 99% sure he was intentionally avoiding running into enchantress, not just because he didn't want to fight her, but because he didn't want to give me vision.

[llDemonll]

Got my Axe Announcer! Best announcer ever!

I always laugh when I'm playing and someone has Axe, he's like a big, bumbly, 8-year old who failed the first two years of english in school

[Longview]

I always laugh when I'm playing and someone has Axe, he's like a big, bumbly, 8-year old who failed the first two years of english in school

he does not speak of himself, but rather his weapon

that makes him come off as slightly brighter

[NotValidAnymore]

And then he does like a 180 and goes "You get nothing. Good day, sir."

I SAID GOOD DAY, SIR!

[PizzaSHARK]

I want him to buy a chicken and sentries. Let the position 4 buy the observer wards. If I am against a solo hard lane I want him to pull and stack and kill the stack before minute 3 so he can pull again at 3:15 and then connect the camp. This will deny opponent two full waves of creeps. This should grant the support around level 3-4 I think and gold enough to buy items. Between pulling/stacking he should try to zone out the hardlaner.

What do you expect supports to do? Buy boots and take experience from carry and buy no flying for mid player and no wards until 11 minute because you can't afford it? Because you refused to buy sentries to help you pull and get some gold yourself and instead bought that extra gauntlet? Because you wanted those boots? Even when supports have a hard time they will have gold for wards. It's just that somehow bad players don't feel wards are important when it's going bad for them. Support should always buy wards, I don't know why you think differently.

The problem is that you're assuming every pub game is going to follow the current pro meta (trilane, solo hard lane, solo mid), when most don't. It's not really uncommon to see two duo lanes and a solo mid, or maybe a duo lane and solo hard lane if there's a jungle on their team.

What happens if you're trying to pull against an aggressive duo lane, like a double stun or stun-nuke? They're going to wander over and blast you, and since you didn't buy any stats and have only a single set of tangos for regen, you're going to get bent like a cheap plastic chair.

But hey, you got those sentry wards! You prevented them from warding your pull camp!

EDIT: You're also assuming you're playing captains mode or maybe allpick in a stack. I tend to play nothing but RD, SD, and sometimes AR; you can't guarantee you can have a team that will fit comfortably into the Chinese 1-5 setup. Obviously someone has to buy chicken, wards, dusts, etc even in a team of five carries, but it's unlikely anyone is going to fit into a comfortable 1-5 role; most of the time, functional teams will split the burden of buying necessities among everyone since everyone needs gold.

[Hermanni]

Go top as SF -
Enemy enchantress jungling in MY jungle and N'aix mysteriously avoids ever fighting her.

Yes, and it's sadly common to see jungling Lifestealers disregard easy kills in the lane even when they're not being deliberately unhelpful. You only have 70% slow at level 2, better use it on creeps to get extra 50 hp you don't need.

On the brighter side, here's the animation on TC ultimate http://i.imgur.com/3LFkwT1.jpg, now they just need to add the damn hero sometime this year. And Bristleback.

[Deleted]

What happens when the enemy offlaner isn't solo and you go to check where he wards and walk into first blood?

Dying first blood is extremely hard unless they are like three people. Dying from two is very rare unless they have rune or something. And let's be honest, it happens very rarely that people go that organized to the woods in public games and in more organized games you will have your team covering you.

What happens when they don't obs ward and just gank you and kill you when you pull?

You stack at :52. Before that you are checking lanes, zoning out hard laner. If they're more than one, of course you're going to be more careful when you go stack. You're not gonna die if you watch lane and if they're two, getting a stack off isn't as important if they go to stop you because your carry is getting farm. And check their picks. Lanes are pretty predictable.

What happens when the enemy offlane knows how to put his ward in a place where you can't deward without blocking your own camp? It's not very hard to ward without people seeing you place.

Now you're out the price of sentries that did nothing and are also not getting gold or experience from pulling. Time to go AFK in fountain so you don't steal precious EXP from your carry?

Have you ever played support? On Dire jungle, you can deward any observer ward blocking your camp with just one sentry that will not block your camp. On Radiant you need two sentries to cover all spots but you can reduce it to one ward if you see in what area the hard laner wards (under or over the trees).

Hell, even if you DO manage to deward, a hero like WR can easily just shoot the jungle camp when you try to pull and prevent the pull from ever happening.

WR shoot with what? His auto attack? Before you stack you are harassing him. You know if he will follow you and try to stop your stack and if he does that, that means he is still kept out of lane and level 1 while your carry gets farm.

The problem is that you're assuming every pub game is going to follow the current pro meta (trilane, solo hard lane, solo mid), when most don't. It's not really uncommon to see two duo lanes and a solo mid, or maybe a duo lane and solo hard lane if there's a jungle on their team.

What happens if you're trying to pull against an aggressive duo lane, like a double stun or stun-nuke? They're going to wander over and blast you, and since you didn't buy any stats and have only a single set of tangos for regen, you're going to get bent like a cheap plastic chair.

But hey, you got those sentry wards! You prevented them from warding your pull camp!

Most game follow the current meta. Maybe not on your MMR but on my main account almost always there is solo hard lane. Tri lanes don't happen that often but more like a jungler.

If I am pulling against a dual lane, of course I am going to be more careful. But by pulling you are already helping your carry by letting him farm under tower without those two harassing and denying him. And he is getting full experience while they are not. And you're clearly clueless. You have day vision bro. They can't just come and "blast" you if you stay on the safe side of the neutrals.

Sentries and chicken doesn't amount to all of your gold. What is it? 200+150? You can buy salve, tangos and branch.

[Lysah]

Why do you think you can just instantly win any harass trade as any support VS any hero? Supports are weak as piss by default, that's why they support. Most of them start with 0-1 armor and if you're buying sentry wards you're not buying a ring of protection. Enjoy getting killed from full health in 6 or 7 auto attacks as you try to "harass" WR.

[PizzaSHARK]

If I am pulling against a dual lane, of course I am going to be more careful. But by pulling you are already helping your carry by letting him farm under tower without those two harassing and denying him. And he is getting full experience while they are not. And you're clearly clueless. You have day vision bro. They can't just come and "blast" you if you stay on the safe side of the neutrals.

Sentries and chicken doesn't amount to all of your gold. What is it? 200+150? You can buy salve, tangos and branch.

You can approach from multiple angles. Many spells have a long cast range. Trees are in place to prevent you from having full, unobstructed day vision. They can de-ward your vision wards.

And one branch isn't going to make a difference.

Or they could simply dive your carry, especially since their creeps are tanking the tower. I do it all the time with double stun or double nuke lanes.

[Hermanni]

This discussion is redundant, the enemy will always pick Bounty Hunter so you're better off always getting sentries. Your extra stats won't help you, between his starting armor and shield you won't do any damage to him as support anyway.

[Deleted]

Why do you think you can just instantly win any harass trade as any support VS any hero? Supports are weak as piss by default, that's why they support. Most of them start with 0-1 armor and if you're buying sentry wards you're not buying a ring of protection. Enjoy getting killed from full health in 6 or 7 auto attacks as you try to "harass" WR.

Die because you trade hits? Ok. This is what you do: You go wrap around the trees, trade some hits, go back into the woods and eat a tango or go back and pull. WR follows you? Guess what? WR is getting no experience at all. WR stays near his creeps and in experience range? Guess what? You carry can start moving towards WR to force him to run back a bit = not hitting you while you are hitting her.

Let's look at some common supports: SD, Lina, Lesh, Maiden, WD, Rubick. They all have spells that will make them safe enough against the likes of WR, Magnus, DS, Batrider. So how you ever die against a solo WR because you don't have a Ring of Protection is beyond me.

PizzaSHARK: Let's dive carry at level 1. That must be really easy, especially with level 1 spells and him full health and a support 3 seconds away. And what tress are there at pull spot that will make you not see them coming? The only way they can get to you by surprise if they wrap around and that takes ages and if they're missing for so long, maybe you should back. Here is a picture: http://i.imgur.com/3RkU8gb.jpg

[Lysah]

This discussion is redundant, the enemy will always pick Bounty Hunter so you're better off always getting sentries. Your extra stats won't help you, between his starting armor and shield you won't do any damage to him as support anyway.

I agree completely.

[PizzaSHARK]

PizzaSHARK: Let's dive carry at level 1. That must be really easy, especially with level 1 spells and him full health and a support 3 seconds away. And what tress are there at pull spot that will make you not see them coming? The only way they can get to you by surprise if they wrap around and that takes ages and if they're missing for so long, maybe you should back. Here is a picture: http://i.imgur.com/3RkU8gb.jpg

Cool. So now you're an underfarmed, underleveled support that's still expected to buy wards, dust, TPs, and still have your Meka and Force Staff and Ghost Scepter and Pipe at a decent time.

Obviously pulling is so easy and you can't be ganked during it and obviously everyone else is just fucking retarded and you've figured out a way to win the game, every single game, by doing the exact same shit every game, right?

Why haven't the pros figured it out, man? Did you not tell them because you'd feel it'd be too boring if you did?

[Hermanni]

Cool. So now you're an underfarmed, underleveled support that's still expected to buy wards, dust, TPs, and still have your Meka and Force Staff and Ghost Scepter and Pipe at a decent time.

Obviously pulling is so easy and you can't be ganked during it and obviously everyone else is just fucking retarded and you've figured out a way to win the game, every single game, by doing the exact same shit every game, right?

Why haven't the pros figured it out, man? Did you not tell them because you'd feel it'd be too boring if you did?

How is this relevant? You could just admit you were wrong or come up with a real argument instead of being condescending and reverting to old subject with some trademark exaggeration.