Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 12:34 PM.
And no, I still don't see his past achievements being even remotely relevant in this context.
Can we realize that individual heroes have skill caps? Whether it's navi or some rando right clicking enemy hero and pressing the "t" key the results are the exact same. Saying any one person is one of the best at any one hero is just hilarious. At the level we play at, every single hero in the game is piss easy and we're all equally good at all of them. The difference between god tier and standard good players is not in hero control, it is in decision making, and most especially, teamwork. His decision making that game was terrible.
But this discussion isn't about HIM, it's about a game where Orchid was a terrible idea. If you really think he is somehow a better Clinkz than most anyone else it only backs up my argument more - what happened that game? Best player with best build couldn't make a play, I guess Clinkz just sucks needs major buffs or something.
In my opinion, it's a classic example of how even tournament class players sheep to the meta game and refuse to evolve unless absolutely forced to.
Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:19 PM.
I'm with Ariadne on this one, i believe Orchid is a better item on Clinkz than Desolator. (the amount of damage that desolator provides is great, but IMO in some situations Orchid is better).
On a side note, you're saying that past achievements count Ariadne (and i agree, it does matter), but i believe Lysah had good games with Clinkz + Desolator, so you can't take 1 game out of the pool and say that build doesnt work. About the lowskill i kind of agree, its unusuall to see a naix playing like that considering the "mmr" lysah is on, but that sort of thing happens in every rating, it doesnt matter if you're on normal/high/vhigh, eventually you're going to play with bad people, they had naix, lysah had QoP, seems like QoP was worst :P.
I didn't deny Orchid has its uses and you will still see me buy it from time to time, just like I buy it on other heroes, especially invisible ones.
What we have to understand is that BF does negligible damage outside of strafe/ult. His job is not to carry, it's to assassinate. You pick one hero on the enemy team and you take them down. You pick Orchid if the hero you need to take down is a Storm Spirit or a QoP who will blink away from you if you can't silence. If you're trading your spot for enemy Sniper, Desolator is a far better pick, as Orchid does nothing to him but provide you a little damage boost. Deso also lets you beat down towers a lot faster, and after BF gets 3+ core items he can easily backdoor through protection and is basically a backdoor furion + nightmares since you can't actually make him leave with a TP scroll when he can level just about any hero in the game 1v1.
Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:28 PM.
Please tell me what shows that an item build works.
And tell me how referencing past games of a player and his success with a certain item isn't relevant in proving that an item is good in competitive games? You look at the games, you see what the item did for him and you realize they win games because that guy plays Clinkz so damn well and his item build is a part of that.
Example, if you play a hero in a certain way with certain items and you do fairly well with it and then another player comes along. He shows how he plays the hero, he goes another item build and he is the only one that rips through professional teams because of his play with that hero. How has he not shown that his play style with that hero works? And his play style has very much to do with his item choices. Until you prove that your item build is better than his, in real games, you really got nothing on him.
And I still don't see why you argue these points but give me no real example in that EG game where Desolator would have won or changed the game or made it easier for him to kill targets. Because that is what Lysah tried to say with referencing to that game, right? That Desolator would have made a difference and Orchid was the wrong choice and caused him to be useless in that game.
Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 01:28 PM.
Honestly, if you want to use past references to back up the success of a build/player, how about you stop ignoring the fact that my KDA spread out over 20 games is a solid 10-15 kills for every death? I go godlike quite very nearly literally every time I buy desolator.
Same way s4's Batrider is called one of the best in Europe. You can't seriously tell me that any player would find the kills s4 finds with his Batrider. His understanding of hero movement is what allows him to do this. Same way Dendi's Pudge is famous. His ability to find kills and roam with that hero is what makes it work.
Why? Because I don't feel it is relevant. But if you say so:Honestly, if you want to use past references to back up the success of a build/player, how about you stop ignoring the fact that my KDA spread out over 20 games is a solid 10-15 kills for every death? I go godlike quite very nearly literally every time I buy desolator.
83% win rate with 24 games at higher MMR than you probably. Compare that to your 58% win with 31 games.
Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 01:42 PM.
You see what you want to see. There is no way to be a remarkable player with Clinkz. I could argue Bat or Pudge, at least they have some skill shots to work with, Clinkz is literally a right click hero.
And he did not make Orchid famous, fast Orchid/roam Clinkz has been around since Orchid was introduced. It's not a very impressive leap of logic to grab Orchid on BF, pubs figured that one out pretty much the day the item got added.
Maybe you should watch more than one game and have a little faith. As a final comment, there is no higher MMR than me. It does not exist and cannot exist. I realize we're quickly devolving into a pissing contest about individual skill, but how about you trust every single person who has ever played with me against your own personal opinion? I know it's hard to give up on personal opinions but I, for one, have faith. You can ask Manni, my MMR is high enough that even if I queue with brand new players it still sticks us in page 1 games. My queue time is 10-15 minutes on average because the system cannot find players at my skill level to fill a game with, it has to wait until the search range allows a game of players below me. It's pretty annoying, actually. Not that I didn't enjoy going against Merlini and his prostack with a new player like Hanna on my team. But that's what matchmaking considers mathematically fair.
Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:48 PM.
I didn't say Funn1k made Orchid famous in public games. I said it was the build that made him successful with it in competitive games.
You seem to queue AR a lot from what I've seen. It generally has longer queues.
Really tough to find kills with a hero that can't be seen and has max movespeed, you're right, I could never do that...
And my AP queues are generally just as long, which is why I don't bother to switch to AP unless I feel like playing particular heroes. 10 minutes for AR game 8 minutes for AP what's the difference? I swapped to AR because of kids who just pick meta lineups all the time, this was especially a problem right after TI2. The amount of copycatting pros is really annoying, it's nice to not play with the same 6-8 heroes in every single game every single day from time to time. I've noticed it's a bit better now, but Magnus is still in virtually every single AP game I play, as is one of about 5 different carry (Gyro got huge, wonder how that happened) and of course Profit last pickers are still everywhere.
Honestly, this whole argument reminds me of oh, so long ago when everyone told me that Lothar's was a terrible item, only good for pubstomping, pros would never use it because it's so easy to counter, and I must be playing against terrible players if I had any moderate level of success with it. And now we see pros using Lothar's all the time. Fascinating. You want to know what's REALLY easy to counter? Predictability, like going the same exact build and playing the same exact way with the same hero game after game after game.
Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 02:31 PM.
Not just about finding kills. Finding right kills and winning games. Having the balance of farming and finding kills too and if to push or not. But if you feel you can play Clinkz as well as Funn1k, sure.
There you go. Aui was in top 10 highest MMR on Dotabuff's ranking I think. Gabe Newell said Dotabuff's MMR impelmentation was fairly close to what is used. http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/commen...mments_on_dbr/ and Aui queues all modes but is mostly getting AP. That usually indicates that AP is generally faster queues and I don't see his queues being 8 minutes long on average on his stream. And watch his match history. The variety of heroes is much larger than what you make it out to be.
I played with Aui yesterday, he was disappointing. I also have him on mute for some reason, but that goes without saying since most of these "pros" are incredibly rude to "shit pub players."
Hey look here it is.
And it still doesn't take away the fact that the variety of heroes are much larger than what you claim at high MMR. You just over exaggerate everything.
Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 03:59 PM.
It is the highest possible because there do not exist enough players to make a higher level tier. Maybe I'm not the best, but if there are only 50 better players in the entire world, not all of them even queue USE/W, and how many are online at one time again? Then we take into account that not all of us would be queueing at the same time and you're very quickly left with an impossibility.
Yeah, heroes like Gyro, Magnus, Rubick, Furion, Bounty, QoP or N'aix definitely aren't in every other AP game for the past few months. Right.
And as anecdotal as my evidence may be, 90% of games I played with Lysah in both AP and AR have been after good 7-8 minutes of queuing minimum, often going well beyond 10 minutes. My solo queue isn't even half of these times. And every once in a while we get instant queued and then it's against Merlini & friends. Currently in queue for first game of the day, -AP -AR 8:45 and still counting.
Those were 5 of your most AR recent games. Right. I understand that you and Lysah are buddies but this is getting quite embarrassing with the amount of ass licking.
Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 04:48 PM.
Why are you linking AR games to make a point about AP games, or are you talking about something else now?
And have you ever considered he is my friend and not yours because you are the one who is embarrassing? Don't make the mistake of thinking Hermanni wasn't just as much against me as you are a year ago, I'm pretty sure he called me pub trash at some point in this thread. Luckily for him, he actually gave me a chance and played with me and now we always play together because he acquired some faith.
15 minutes in queue for both AP and AR, max search range, still no game.