1. #7801
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Did you notice the 2-15 QoP on my team?

    I don't really have much more to add, I doubt you are playing "better" opponents because better doesn't really exist unless you're managing to only play in prostacks. Even if you are, the build isn't suddenly bad because people know how to click their armlet. Also, if you want an example of how bad orchid is go watch navi/EG that was played a few days ago, their orchid clinkz did absolutely nothing the entire game because he didn't have the damage for it.

    @pizza
    A hero being picked constantly could also be a sign that he's well balanced, being useful in all situations makes you well rounded. Winning 90% of the time you're picked makes you broken.
    What does the 2-15 QoP have anything to do with you not being able to go on their Omniknight and Nyx because you didn't have the Silence from Orchid?

    I watched the EG game. Tell me where in the game Orchid didn't provide enough damage, please. Funn1k got caught out and melted like paper in the late game. Desolator wouldn't have helped with that. EG played 5 man early on, which reduced Funn1k's ability to pick off heroes, especially the support heroes. Your 3-4 hit Desolator build wouldn't have killed anyone either early game. Tell me where he lacked damage. And you realize Funn1ik is like the only player who has made Clinkz work in high level competitive games, right? At one point it was even a respect ban and he is regarded as one of the best Clinkz players in the world. He also probably has the highest win rate with the hero so it does work in competitive games.

  2. #7802
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    And you realize Funn1ik is like the only player who has made Clinkz work in high level competitive games, right? At one point it was even a respect ban and he is regarded as one of the best Clinkz players in the world. He also probably has the highest win rate with the hero so it does work in competitive games.
    Why does it matter what he has done, it doesn't stop him from being terrible in that game.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  3. #7803
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Why does it matter what he has done, it doesn't stop him from being terrible in that game.
    Of course it matters what he has done. He has proved time and time again that his Orchid Clinkz is one of the best in the world. Same way people have shown that Armlet works on Naix. Just because one player loses one game going that item doesn't prove that that item is useless. Especially when that item has nothing to do with the loss. Him being terrible in that game had nothing to do with going Orchid instead of Desolator. Or did you find a moment in that video where Desolator would have won them the game?
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 12:34 PM.

  4. #7804
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Of course it matters what he has done. He has proved time and time again that his Orchid Clinkz is one of the best in the world. Same way people have shown that Armlet works on Naix. Just because one player loses one game going that item doesn't prove that that item is useless. Especially when that item has nothing to do with the loss. Him being terrible in that game had nothing to do with going Orchid instead of Desolator. Or did you find a moment in that video where it would have?
    Even if his bad item choice didn't lose as hard as him losing it just by dying it still doesn't make his item choice the right one. Just because one player invariably builds the same item doesn't prove there aren't other options that may or may not situationally be better.

    And no, I still don't see his past achievements being even remotely relevant in this context.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-05-10 at 12:42 PM.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  5. #7805
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    he is regarded as one of the best Clinkz players in the world
    I was hoping you'd say this so I could have a good laugh, thank you.

    Can we realize that individual heroes have skill caps? Whether it's navi or some rando right clicking enemy hero and pressing the "t" key the results are the exact same. Saying any one person is one of the best at any one hero is just hilarious. At the level we play at, every single hero in the game is piss easy and we're all equally good at all of them. The difference between god tier and standard good players is not in hero control, it is in decision making, and most especially, teamwork. His decision making that game was terrible.

    But this discussion isn't about HIM, it's about a game where Orchid was a terrible idea. If you really think he is somehow a better Clinkz than most anyone else it only backs up my argument more - what happened that game? Best player with best build couldn't make a play, I guess Clinkz just sucks needs major buffs or something.

    In my opinion, it's a classic example of how even tournament class players sheep to the meta game and refuse to evolve unless absolutely forced to.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:19 PM.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  6. #7806
    I'm with Ariadne on this one, i believe Orchid is a better item on Clinkz than Desolator. (the amount of damage that desolator provides is great, but IMO in some situations Orchid is better).

    On a side note, you're saying that past achievements count Ariadne (and i agree, it does matter), but i believe Lysah had good games with Clinkz + Desolator, so you can't take 1 game out of the pool and say that build doesnt work. About the lowskill i kind of agree, its unusuall to see a naix playing like that considering the "mmr" lysah is on, but that sort of thing happens in every rating, it doesnt matter if you're on normal/high/vhigh, eventually you're going to play with bad people, they had naix, lysah had QoP, seems like QoP was worst :P.

  7. #7807
    I didn't deny Orchid has its uses and you will still see me buy it from time to time, just like I buy it on other heroes, especially invisible ones.

    What we have to understand is that BF does negligible damage outside of strafe/ult. His job is not to carry, it's to assassinate. You pick one hero on the enemy team and you take them down. You pick Orchid if the hero you need to take down is a Storm Spirit or a QoP who will blink away from you if you can't silence. If you're trading your spot for enemy Sniper, Desolator is a far better pick, as Orchid does nothing to him but provide you a little damage boost. Deso also lets you beat down towers a lot faster, and after BF gets 3+ core items he can easily backdoor through protection and is basically a backdoor furion + nightmares since you can't actually make him leave with a TP scroll when he can level just about any hero in the game 1v1.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:28 PM.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  8. #7808
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Even if his bad item choice didn't lose as hard as him losing it just by dying it still doesn't make his item choice the right one. Just because one player invariably builds the same item doesn't prove there aren't other options that may or may not situationally be better.
    You realize it was Lysah who first referenced to that game to show why Orchid Clinkz was bad, right?

    Please tell me what shows that an item build works.

    And tell me how referencing past games of a player and his success with a certain item isn't relevant in proving that an item is good in competitive games? You look at the games, you see what the item did for him and you realize they win games because that guy plays Clinkz so damn well and his item build is a part of that.

    Example, if you play a hero in a certain way with certain items and you do fairly well with it and then another player comes along. He shows how he plays the hero, he goes another item build and he is the only one that rips through professional teams because of his play with that hero. How has he not shown that his play style with that hero works? And his play style has very much to do with his item choices. Until you prove that your item build is better than his, in real games, you really got nothing on him.

    And I still don't see why you argue these points but give me no real example in that EG game where Desolator would have won or changed the game or made it easier for him to kill targets. Because that is what Lysah tried to say with referencing to that game, right? That Desolator would have made a difference and Orchid was the wrong choice and caused him to be useless in that game.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 01:28 PM.

  9. #7809
    Honestly, if you want to use past references to back up the success of a build/player, how about you stop ignoring the fact that my KDA spread out over 20 games is a solid 10-15 kills for every death? I go godlike quite very nearly literally every time I buy desolator.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  10. #7810
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I was hoping you'd say this so I could have a good laugh, thank you.

    Can we realize that individual heroes have skill caps? Whether it's navi or some rando right clicking enemy hero and pressing the "t" key the results are the exact same. Saying any one person is one of the best at any one hero is just hilarious. At the level we play at, every single hero in the game is piss easy and we're all equally good at all of them. The difference between god tier and standard good players is not in hero control, it is in decision making, and most especially, teamwork. His decision making that game was terrible.
    The difference bewteen you and Funn1k with Clinkz is huge. Funn1k makes big plays with the hero. He out lanes top players with the hero. Not all players have enough awareness and understanding of the game to know when to roam, when to farm, when to push. His style with Clinkz made it competitive. His farm fast Orchid, roam around map style made him successful with it. His decisions in when to leave lane and his ability to find and kill heroes is what makes him good.

    Same way s4's Batrider is called one of the best in Europe. You can't seriously tell me that any player would find the kills s4 finds with his Batrider. His understanding of hero movement is what allows him to do this. Same way Dendi's Pudge is famous. His ability to find kills and roam with that hero is what makes it work.

    Honestly, if you want to use past references to back up the success of a build/player, how about you stop ignoring the fact that my KDA spread out over 20 games is a solid 10-15 kills for every death? I go godlike quite very nearly literally every time I buy desolator.
    Why? Because I don't feel it is relevant. But if you say so:

    http://dotabuff.com/players/86723143...atch_type=real

    83% win rate with 24 games at higher MMR than you probably. Compare that to your 58% win with 31 games.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 01:42 PM.

  11. #7811
    You see what you want to see. There is no way to be a remarkable player with Clinkz. I could argue Bat or Pudge, at least they have some skill shots to work with, Clinkz is literally a right click hero.

    And he did not make Orchid famous, fast Orchid/roam Clinkz has been around since Orchid was introduced. It's not a very impressive leap of logic to grab Orchid on BF, pubs figured that one out pretty much the day the item got added.

    Maybe you should watch more than one game and have a little faith. As a final comment, there is no higher MMR than me. It does not exist and cannot exist. I realize we're quickly devolving into a pissing contest about individual skill, but how about you trust every single person who has ever played with me against your own personal opinion? I know it's hard to give up on personal opinions but I, for one, have faith. You can ask Manni, my MMR is high enough that even if I queue with brand new players it still sticks us in page 1 games. My queue time is 10-15 minutes on average because the system cannot find players at my skill level to fill a game with, it has to wait until the search range allows a game of players below me. It's pretty annoying, actually. Not that I didn't enjoy going against Merlini and his prostack with a new player like Hanna on my team. But that's what matchmaking considers mathematically fair.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:48 PM.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  12. #7812
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    You see what you want to see. There is no way to be a remarkable player with Clinkz. I could argue Bat or Pudge, at least they have some skill shots to work with, Clinkz is literally a right click hero.

    And he did not make Orchid famous, fast Orchid/roam Clinkz has been around since Orchid was introduced. It's not a very impressive leap of logic to grab Orchid on BF, pubs figured that one out pretty much the day the item got added.

    Maybe you should watch more than one game and have a little faith. As a final comment, there is no higher MMR than me. It does not exist and cannot exist. I realize we're quickly devolving into a pissing contest about individual skill, but how about you trust every single person who has ever played with me against your own personal opinion? I know it's hard to give up on personal opinions but I, for one, have faith. You can ask Manni, my MMR is high enough that even if I queue with brand new players it still sticks us in page 1 games. My queue time is 10-15 minutes on average because the system cannot find players at my skill level to fill a game with, it has to wait until the search range allows a game of players below me. It's pretty annoying, actually. Not that I didn't enjoy going against Merlini and his prostack with a new player like Hanna on my team. But that's what matchmaking considers mathematically fair.
    Ability to find kills and understand when you can kill them or not has much to do with Funn1k's Clinkz play style. When he wins games is because he can seemingly find kills out of nowhere. The same way s4's Batrider is famous, as I said. He find kill and openings many don't.

    I didn't say Funn1k made Orchid famous in public games. I said it was the build that made him successful with it in competitive games.

    You seem to queue AR a lot from what I've seen. It generally has longer queues.

  13. #7813
    Really tough to find kills with a hero that can't be seen and has max movespeed, you're right, I could never do that...

    And my AP queues are generally just as long, which is why I don't bother to switch to AP unless I feel like playing particular heroes. 10 minutes for AR game 8 minutes for AP what's the difference? I swapped to AR because of kids who just pick meta lineups all the time, this was especially a problem right after TI2. The amount of copycatting pros is really annoying, it's nice to not play with the same 6-8 heroes in every single game every single day from time to time. I've noticed it's a bit better now, but Magnus is still in virtually every single AP game I play, as is one of about 5 different carry (Gyro got huge, wonder how that happened) and of course Profit last pickers are still everywhere.


    Honestly, this whole argument reminds me of oh, so long ago when everyone told me that Lothar's was a terrible item, only good for pubstomping, pros would never use it because it's so easy to counter, and I must be playing against terrible players if I had any moderate level of success with it. And now we see pros using Lothar's all the time. Fascinating. You want to know what's REALLY easy to counter? Predictability, like going the same exact build and playing the same exact way with the same hero game after game after game.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 02:31 PM.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  14. #7814
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Really tough to find kills with a hero that can't be seen and has max movespeed, you're right, I could never do that...

    And my AP queues are generally just as long, which is why I don't bother to switch to AP unless I feel like playing particular heroes. 10 minutes for AR game 8 minutes for AP what's the difference? I swapped to AR because of kids who just pick meta lineups all the time, this was especially a problem right after TI2. The amount of copycatting pros is really annoying, it's nice to not play with the same 6-8 heroes in every single game every single day from time to time. I've noticed it's a bit better now, but Magnus is still in virtually every single AP game I play, as is one of about 5 different carry (Gyro got huge, wonder how that happened) and of course Profit last pickers are still everywhere.


    Honestly, this whole argument reminds me of oh, so long ago when everyone told me that Lothar's was a terrible item, only good for pubstomping, pros would never use it because it's so easy to counter, and I must be playing against terrible players if I had any moderate level of success with it. And now we see pros using Lothar's all the time. Fascinating.

    Not just about finding kills. Finding right kills and winning games. Having the balance of farming and finding kills too and if to push or not. But if you feel you can play Clinkz as well as Funn1k, sure.

    http://dotabuff.com/players/40547474/matches

    There you go. Aui was in top 10 highest MMR on Dotabuff's ranking I think. Gabe Newell said Dotabuff's MMR impelmentation was fairly close to what is used. http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/commen...mments_on_dbr/ and Aui queues all modes but is mostly getting AP. That usually indicates that AP is generally faster queues and I don't see his queues being 8 minutes long on average on his stream. And watch his match history. The variety of heroes is much larger than what you make it out to be.

  15. #7815
    I played with Aui yesterday, he was disappointing. I also have him on mute for some reason, but that goes without saying since most of these "pros" are incredibly rude to "shit pub players."

    http://dotabuff.com/matches/191910110
    Hey look here it is.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  16. #7816
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I played with Aui yesterday, he was disappointing. I also have him on mute for some reason, but that goes without saying since most of these "pros" are incredibly rude to "shit pub players."

    http://dotabuff.com/matches/191910110
    Hey look here it is.
    Still doesn't take away the fact that your MMR isn't the highest possible. Queues times isn't a proof of having highest MMR possible, as we can see that Aui's queue times aren't as long as you say yours are. I never said you don't have high MMR. But you are saying you have the highest because of your queue times.

    And it still doesn't take away the fact that the variety of heroes are much larger than what you claim at high MMR. You just over exaggerate everything.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 03:59 PM.

  17. #7817
    It is the highest possible because there do not exist enough players to make a higher level tier. Maybe I'm not the best, but if there are only 50 better players in the entire world, not all of them even queue USE/W, and how many are online at one time again? Then we take into account that not all of us would be queueing at the same time and you're very quickly left with an impossibility.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  18. #7818
    Yeah, heroes like Gyro, Magnus, Rubick, Furion, Bounty, QoP or N'aix definitely aren't in every other AP game for the past few months. Right.

    And as anecdotal as my evidence may be, 90% of games I played with Lysah in both AP and AR have been after good 7-8 minutes of queuing minimum, often going well beyond 10 minutes. My solo queue isn't even half of these times. And every once in a while we get instant queued and then it's against Merlini & friends. Currently in queue for first game of the day, -AP -AR 8:45 and still counting.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-05-10 at 04:47 PM.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  19. #7819
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Yeah, heroes like Gyro, Magnus, Rubick, Furion, Bounty, QoP or N'aix definitely aren't in every other AP game for the past few months. Right.
    http://dotabuff.com/matches/191728413
    http://dotabuff.com/matches/191218547
    http://dotabuff.com/matches/191142868
    http://dotabuff.com/matches/189502061
    http://dotabuff.com/matches/189700936

    Those were 5 of your most AR recent games. Right. I understand that you and Lysah are buddies but this is getting quite embarrassing with the amount of ass licking.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2013-05-10 at 04:48 PM.

  20. #7820
    Why are you linking AR games to make a point about AP games, or are you talking about something else now?

    And have you ever considered he is my friend and not yours because you are the one who is embarrassing? Don't make the mistake of thinking Hermanni wasn't just as much against me as you are a year ago, I'm pretty sure he called me pub trash at some point in this thread. Luckily for him, he actually gave me a chance and played with me and now we always play together because he acquired some faith.

    15 minutes in queue for both AP and AR, max search range, still no game.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


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