[Megathread] DotA 2

[PizzaSHARK]

Think he was just very very mad 'bout the necro archer burning his mana in the early game. Looking at 633's Invoker and yol's Tusk in game 2 does prove your point about some of them being quite bad on certain heroes tho.

Yeah, I know why they got a Diffusal, but why in the fuck would you get it on Leoric and not Alchemist? Alchemist has the machinegun autoswing speed to actually make it work as a mana drain ability in addition to the purgestick function.

[veiledy0]

Yeah, I know why they got a Diffusal, but why in the fuck would you get it on Leoric and not Alchemist? Alchemist has the machinegun autoswing speed to actually make it work as a mana drain ability in addition to the purgestick function.

Can't say I understand getting an item that gives Agi and Int on a hero who's prime stat is Str either. Maybe he got it to increase his mana pool for the sake of his ult, and not just the purge. I only tuned in on that game from the 5th minute or so, so I don't know why they even picked SK. Were there really no better heroes in the pool or?

[Clrg]

So who winned the BO3?

[veiledy0]

So who winned the BO3?

gosugamers.net/dota2/gosubet
Scroll down for recent results.

[Sorcereria]

Did I just see merlini in Police suit during starladder casting
My food...

[Charge me Doctor]

Yesterday i had fun game, we pushed last 2 raxes on enemy base, and they had Void with rapier, he threw his ult upon us, but i (WR) successfully stunned him with abyssal blade and shackles for whole duration, we dropped him to ~10% health and he run away. He was the only survivor of this fight from his team. We thought it is GG, he had no ult and there was no way he could stop us. 4 seconds later, he jumps upon us, we turn to his side to attack him and... he ults again. That tricky piece of shit bought freaking refresher with money he saved on buyback! He wiped our team but we still won because, well, we had huge advantage called mega creeps.

[Jester Joe]

Yesterday I had a game where a Lion bought no support items at start, bought only boots, and then went straight Boots of Travel. Then sold said boots for Tranquil boots at like the 30 minute mark.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/530028902

[PizzaSHARK]

Can't say I understand getting an item that gives Agi and Int on a hero who's prime stat is Str either. Maybe he got it to increase his mana pool for the sake of his ult, and not just the purge. I only tuned in on that game from the 5th minute or so, so I don't know why they even picked SK. Were there really no better heroes in the pool or?

Because Leoric is a top tier hero if you have any idea how to play him. Sadly, they didn't have any effing clue how to play him, and they stupidly let Dendi get Pudge.

[veiledy0]

Because Leoric is a top tier hero if you have any idea how to play him. Sadly, they didn't have any effing clue how to play him, and they stupidly let Dendi get Pudge.

Dendi does play Pudge better than your average pub russian tho.

[Lysah]

There is a lot to being a carry than the abilities you have. Item choice, global farming ability, positioning, timing, all of these things matter way more on a carry than other slots. I was top 20 on Dotabuff for Leoric a while back and I'm the only person in the top 50 who doesn't regularly 5 stack to get those ratings. What makes me different from some 2500 player who picks Leoric? There must be something to it or they'd be the same rating as me.

Leoric has a fantastic stun, a fantastic crit, and one of the best ultimates in the game. Having a free aegis is absurd and borderline overpowered, and Leoric was a top pick in DotA1 and has only been buffed since then. He will make a return some day; he is still top tier carry, people just don't practice with him or use him at all right now. Teams are currently built around initiators, with carrys that can follow up for big damage (Gyro, SF/vac, Luna (who is actually an initiator herself, but people don't play her like that - it just doesn't matter because she is such a god tier trilane hero with her aura) when Leoric is meant to be the initiator for his team. Run in, kill someone, eat every enemy CC and ult there is, die, slow their whole team down to a crawl, get back up and pop BKB and wreck everything. Leoric being able to "get caught" on purpose is the sickest ability in DotA, because it's something that is incredibly hard to play around if Leoric has a coordinated team.

All in all, I doubt most people would say DK is a bad carry, and they're pretty similar heroes in function.

[Charge me Doctor]

I love picking Lion when enemy team has Leoric. 2 points in mana drain and he has no ult. Unless he doesn't have soulring

[PizzaSHARK]

I love picking Lion when enemy team has Leoric. 2 points in mana drain and he has no ult. Unless he doesn't have soulring

Level 2 Mana Drain only takes 200 mana, and that's over four seconds of channeling. Leoric has 572 mana with no stats and items at level 11, so you'd need to channel three times just to be able to deny his ult, and that's not counting if he buys stats (Drums is common on him) or Soul Ring. Mana Drain actually scales pretty poorly; it's only 100 additional mana drained per level until level 4, when it fucking doubles from 300 drained to 600 drained. Level 4 Mana Drain would be pretty gruesome to deal with, but it's still squishy Lion standing still for four seconds, and if you have 4 points in Mana Drain, you've got at most one point into Hex.

No, the only real threat to Leoric is Necronomicon because of the burst mana burn from the ranged creep and the constant mana drain from the melee creep, and I've got a sneaking suspicion the nerfs to that item aren't through yet.

BKB counters all of that, though. While Leoric would prefer to BKB after rezzing, it's worth doing it before rezzing if you need to guarantee you'll get a rez at all.

What people don't realize about Leoric is that all of the supposed counters to him (this mostly comes down to LOL BURN HIS MANA) are themselves countered by BKB. It really isn't difficult for Leoric to game the system to be able to guarantee his ult goes off if you try and burst him down, and he is unique in that he is literally the only hero your team is actively penalized for killing.

Know how people play when they have aegis? How they're okay with diving towers and making high-risk/high-reward plays? Leoric is like that all the time.

All in all, I doubt most people would say DK is a bad carry, and they're pretty similar heroes in function.

Leoric is basically a DK that's a little less difficult to kill (once, anyway...), but has considerably more damage output.

The hell of it is, Leoric is a perfect choice for a secondary carry to a primary carry, too. You could even run him in a trilane as a roaming support. His stun is amazing, he can take points in aura to facilitate early pushing, and he's both naturally tanky and has good base damage growth (this is the only time I'd even consider not going stun/stats build.) I don't think he'd be better than Sven at that role, but you absolutely could run him like that.

His aura is 30% lifesteal for all friendly heroes and creeps in range, both ranged and melee. This has perfect synergy for a high-damage hero like Clinkz or Luna.

[LiiLoSNK]

Dendi does play Pudge better than your average pub russian tho.

My god that made me laugh so hard.

SK will start getting more use when he stops being a shittier version of Naix. He's a worse ganker, farmer, and damage dealer.

[PizzaSHARK]

My god that made me laugh so hard.

SK will start getting more use when he stops being a shittier version of Naix. He's a worse ganker, farmer, and damage dealer.

His ganks are better than Naix's because they come with a stun, not a slow. Doesn't need to farm. Does more damage despite not needing to farm.

A great deal harder to kill than Naix. Scales far better than Naix.

You were saying?

[LiiLoSNK]

His ganks are better than Naix's because they come with a stun, not a slow. Doesn't need to farm. Does more damage despite not needing to farm.

A great deal harder to kill than Naix. Scales far better than Naix.

You were saying?

Doesn't do more damage, farms infinitely slower, can't infest into anyone for automatic 2v1 gank or to escape being ganked, can't go immune to magic early game, can't explode a creep for massive aoe damage, forced to build bkb no matter what, and relies on not being mana burned.

But then again, how can I argue with "STUN BETTER THAN SLOW".

[Lysah]

Leoric WAY out damages N'aix, what are you smoking? His crit is so superior to feast it's ridiculous. He doesn't have the attack speed steroid that N'aix does, but his stun is on a way new level from open wounds and N'aix is pretty much out of the fight when his rage wears off (force staff his wounds target away from him and he's a garbage carry).

N'aix was and still is a joke pick, being popular and winning games doesn't make him a good hero, despite what you may think. Someone has to win the game of DotA, after all, which means if N'aix gets picked every single game, he's bound to win a lot, too. Leoric would win more.

Literally the only advantage N'aix has over Leoric is being able to ult a hero with blink dagger or some other movement ability and drop in the middle of the enemy team on command.

Also, Leoric is naturally tankier than N'aix, so he doesn't need to hide in creeps to escape ganks, he can just fight back and kill everyone. N'aix dies to anti-bkb stuns like Fiend's Grip, no matter how many items he has, because everyone dies to this kind of stuff. Except Leoric, because he gets back and kills you now that your ult is gone.

[LiiLoSNK]

Leoric WAY out damages N'aix, what are you smoking? His crit is so superior to feast it's ridiculous. He doesn't have the attack speed steroid that N'aix does, but his stun is on a way new level from open wounds and N'aix is pretty much out of the fight when his rage wears off (force staff his wounds target away from him and he's a garbage carry).

N'aix was and still is a joke pick, being popular and winning games doesn't make him a good hero, despite what you may think. Someone has to win the game of DotA, after all, which means if N'aix gets picked every single game, he's bound to win a lot, too. Leoric would win more.

Literally the only advantage N'aix has over Leoric is being able to ult a hero with blink dagger or some other movement ability and drop in the middle of the enemy team on command.

Also, Leoric is naturally tankier than N'aix, so he doesn't need to hide in creeps to escape ganks, he can just fight back and kill everyone. N'aix dies to anti-bkb stuns like Fiend's Grip, no matter how many items he has, because everyone dies to this kind of stuff. Except Leoric, because he gets back and kills you now that your ult is gone.

Sorry but crit damage doesn't out-dps naix att speed early game. Naix is able to continuously build damage where as leoric is forced to immediately build survivability to be of any use. I'm not gonna sit here and theorycraft the usage of forcestaff because I could say the same thing about SK's slow stun being easy to force staff, fog juke, but it wouldn't give my argument any credit as it doesn't give yours any. You can sit here all day crying about how pro's don't know what they're doing, but the numbers, ratings, and stats will always be against you.

Here's what you sound like: "Oh I'm the best piano player in the world, but I just don't play the same way as those noobs you see in those fancy orchestras".

Literally the only advantage is infest ganks? SK doesn't get ganked because he just fights back and kills everyone? I'm officially done talking to you for now because we clearly play on different levels.

[Charge me Doctor]

Level 2 Mana Drain only takes 200 mana, and that's over four seconds of channeling. Leoric has 572 mana with no stats and items at level 11, so you'd need to channel three times just to be able to deny his ult, and that's not counting if he buys stats (Drums is common on him) or Soul Ring.

Like every Leoric runs around at 100% mana, it's not like he uses his Stun that often, and it's not like you can drain him while standing on the line. The soulring is the only thing that stops Lion from completely destroying Leorics' mana. I am not talking about theoretical situation where Leoric and Lion just appears near each other, Lion starts draining and Leoirc stands around.

Necro was nerfed several times, what are you talking about?

And yes, there is counters to counters of his ultimate, if one characters ultimate can be countered by another characters spell/item it's quite shitty balance decision

[Longview]

Level 2 Mana Drain only takes 200 mana, and that's over four seconds of channeling. Leoric has 572 mana with no stats and items at level 11, so you'd need to channel three times just to be able to deny his ult, and that's not counting if he buys stats (Drums is common on him) or Soul Ring. Mana Drain actually scales pretty poorly; it's only 100 additional mana drained per level until level 4, when it fucking doubles from 300 drained to 600 drained. Level 4 Mana Drain would be pretty gruesome to deal with, but it's still squishy Lion standing still for four seconds, and if you have 4 points in Mana Drain, you've got at most one point into Hex.

well lets not assume he uses his stun

that would be silly and not logical

[Lysah]

the numbers, ratings, and stats will always be against you.

Always? Don't be so arrogant, Leoric will be a fotm hero eventually and the numbers will be with me. That's inevitability, even if it isn't this month or even this year. He literally isn't played at all right now, there aren't stats or numbers, so I'm not sure you can even say they're against me, 5 games is not a sample size, but whatever, I will agree that they're not on my side.

I'm officially done talking to you for now because we clearly play on different levels.

I could've told you that before you even made a MMOC account, why are you just now noticing this?

@Lion mana draining during team fights
lol @ lion mana draining during team fights
good one 10/10 would pretend is possible again

Biggest counter to Leoric is stun + mana burn at the same time, like bane ult, but most of those are countered by having a team and not 1v5ing.