[Megathread] DotA 2

[Feindy]

what? cm has been nerfed like 3 times since then and midas cost has been increased too

[Lysah]

How is it a come from behind item? It's 4000 gold for something that gives you basically no stats, and chances are that if you're behind, you certainly don't have cost-efficient items like SnY, Drum, Armlet, etc to pair with the BKB to ensure you can actually do anything during it. Only heroes like Sven or maybe Weaver, who get huge damage amps from their skills (Sven ult, Weaver free DD rune, etc) can really get away with a "naked" BKB.

You'll need it to escape the euls/sheeps/shivas/etc of the enemy team when they're ahead. Though the biggest advantage of BKB is simply being able to ignore positioning. If the enemy has a strong team fight and is beating you because of a blink ravage combo, buying a BKB can help you defend tier 3s and turn the game around.

On the other hand, if you're already in the lead and enemy has a blink ravage, buying BKB doesn't do anything for you - you were already beating them in spite of their great team fight ultimate, why bother going immune to it.

And QW Invoker falling off is simply because Exort is better at everything.

Midas CM was always retarded, always will be. Trying to say "it got nerfed" as an excuse is pathetic reasoning. People stopped using it because the strat is awful, the tiny gold cost increase does not a strategy break. The nerfs are just a great example of how easy it is to change the "meta," because increasing the cost of midas by one whole use will make everyone drop it because now they have a reason to.

Strength heroes are only better than agility heroes late game, unfortunately agility heroes can make more out of 2 or 3 items and end the game before strength heroes get 5 or 6 and that is why they are picked.

[Deleted]

Hand of Midas CM was never good. That's the point. It was stupid, it was backwards, and people did it anyway because the one pro team had a brainfart and all of the other pro teams dove forward to huff the fumes and on down the line. CM has not seen any significant nerfs in several patches; Midas saw a small nerf that didn't change much but delay the timing by another minute or so.

And there's an easy way of running around and killing people - take their towers. Either they defend the tower and you kill them, or you take the tower and gain tons of gold and gain more map control.

Actually having your base stats reduced is a significant nerf(see Kotl). Hand of Midas CM was an ok strat, when it got nerfed people dropped the idea ofc.

In your way you sorta always kill them despite them having a tower.

[Hermanni]

@Hermanni

It wasn't hard to predict WK would be top pick as a carry or top pick as a support? I didn't see anyone mention WK starting to get picked as a support and he still isn't god tier which was talked about in this thread. It isn't about a snail-train meta. Pros just don't prioritize trying to figure out new strategies with new heroes when they already have a style they consider strong.

Mastering and understanding a hero fully requires a lot of time and experimentation and it doesn't even guarantee success. Look at Fnatic. They like to be so different and play weird and pick weird because they want to be innovative and think they got the game figured out. It doesn't work out most of the time and they've become masters of nothing. Sometimes super-sharpened scissors are much more effective than a small rock and rather spending time looking for a bigger one you can just use the scissors until someone else finds a bigger rock and then you steal it.

You also have to consider changed circumstances when looking at why a hero starts getting picked. You can't just say "Mirana didn't get picked then suddenly picked out of nowhere". There were more things that lead to her popularity than just her abilities. I already said the game changed, farming mids became popular and it allowed safe lane carries to be semi-carries. Hard carries fell off.

I'm not sure why you're so hung on the 'support' part (which again I never mentioned) but maybe you and Liilo both have hard time admitting you were wrong or something. It doesn't matter either way. And the 'mastering the scissors' part is exactly what I mean, being on top of the current copycat scheme is safer than trying to come up with something new. But that doesn't mean the meta isn't a huge snail train, but perhaps a roulette wheel that gets spun every 4-12 months is a better analogy.

And yes, Mirana did get picked suddenly out of nowhere. It's the exact same thing as saying as 'the game suddenly changed out of nowhere' and 'farming mids and farming semis suddenly became popular.' Like I said I don't mean to diss the pros, but I find it hilarious people take the current trends as an indication of anything while all discussions about the joke meta focus on hindsight about how the current one is superior to the old one and nobody ever dares to make predictions of future shifts?

Like, I'd really hate to be Icefrog sometimes. You buff heroes 5 versions in a row so people might finally accept them as "viable", and when the metaroulette finally lands on those heroes people cry for nerfs (like they tend to do on all top picks/bans.)

[EqualWin]

pa, best carry. bf -> bkb 1shot all supports

[Jester Joe]

pa, best carry. bf -> bkb 1shot all supports

You don't know what can of worms you just opened, you don't know.
*hides*

Had someone on my team earlier rage at me because Ursa jungling and killing rosh was what was making us lose, not the Spectre/Witch Doctor who was fed early game. Sure, I probably could of done better, but when he started using Nightmare on me as I'd go to blink in, I'm sure that helped.

I should of picked Kotl like I was going to, at least I had a fun Legion Commander match after that.

[PizzaSHARK]

Actually having your base stats reduced is a significant nerf(see Kotl). Hand of Midas CM was an ok strat, when it got nerfed people dropped the idea ofc.

In your way you sorta always kill them despite them having a tower.

Except the nerf to CM did literally nothing. She could cast two spells at level 2 back to back before, she can *still* cast two spells back to back now, even without buying any branches, etc.

It's the perfect example of a pointless, meaningless nerf. But people still use it as an excuse for why she dropped off in popularity, because people are retarded.

[Sarevokcz]

I'm not sure why you're so hung on the 'support' part (which again I never mentioned) but maybe you and Liilo both have hard time admitting you were wrong or something. It doesn't matter either way. And the 'mastering the scissors' part is exactly what I mean, being on top of the current copycat scheme is safer than trying to come up with something new. But that doesn't mean the meta isn't a huge snail train, but perhaps a roulette wheel that gets spun every 4-12 months is a better analogy.

And yes, Mirana did get picked suddenly out of nowhere. It's the exact same thing as saying as 'the game suddenly changed out of nowhere' and 'farming mids and farming semis suddenly became popular.' Like I said I don't mean to diss the pros, but I find it hilarious people take the current trends as an indication of anything while all discussions about the joke meta focus on hindsight about how the current one is superior to the old one and nobody ever dares to make predictions of future shifts?

Like, I'd really hate to be Icefrog sometimes. You buff heroes 5 versions in a row so people might finally accept them as "viable", and when the metaroulette finally lands on those heroes people cry for nerfs (like they tend to do on all top picks/bans.)

6.79
Leap
-AoE AS/MS speed bonus is granted at the cast location rather than the destination.
-AoE AS bonus increased from 4/8/12/16 to 8/16/24/32.
Night vision reduced from 1200 to 800.
6.78
Sacred Arrow now deals up to 100 extra damage based on distance the arrow traveled.
Moonlight Shadow cooldown decreased from 160/140/120 to 140/120/100.
Starstorm will choose a new target for the second star if the first died before impact.
6.77
Moonlight Shadow duration increased from 11 to 15 seconds.
6.76
Sacred Arrow cooldown decreased from 20 to 17.
Moonlight Shadow manacost decreased from 175 to 75.


doesnt really look like "out of nowhere" to me.

[Hermanni]

6.79
Leap
-AoE AS/MS speed bonus is granted at the cast location rather than the destination.
-AoE AS bonus increased from 4/8/12/16 to 8/16/24/32.
Night vision reduced from 1200 to 800.
6.78
Sacred Arrow now deals up to 100 extra damage based on distance the arrow traveled.
Moonlight Shadow cooldown decreased from 160/140/120 to 140/120/100.
Starstorm will choose a new target for the second star if the first died before impact.
6.77
Moonlight Shadow duration increased from 11 to 15 seconds.
6.76
Sacred Arrow cooldown decreased from 20 to 17.
Moonlight Shadow manacost decreased from 175 to 75.


doesnt really look like "out of nowhere" to me.

You realize 6.79 was out like 8 months ago and was probably a bigger nerf than a buff? I know all of this and it's completely irrelevant when the difference between the changes happening and the largest change in popularity are separated by several months.

[Charge me Doctor]

@Hermanni, you have to admit that it's not changes to one hero that makes difference, nerfs/buffs to other heroes or items, could provoke people to pick Mirana.

[PizzaSHARK]

@Hermanni, you have to admit that it's not changes to one hero that makes difference, nerfs/buffs to other heroes or items, could provoke people to pick Mirana.

The only significant buff potm has received in years is making it so that she can actually afford to use Moonlight Shadow, and that it's no longer on a 3 min cd. She otherwise hasn't changed significantly in a long, long time.

[Deleted]

I still think WK as a carry sucks giant fucking money balls, same as brew despite people picking him all the time.

[Hermanni]

@Hermanni, you have to admit that it's not changes to one hero that makes difference, nerfs/buffs to other heroes or items, could provoke people to pick Mirana.

It is a very considerable factor, but... other heroes get changed in the same patches at the same dates.

[PizzaSHARK]

I still think WK as a carry sucks giant fucking money balls, same as brew despite people picking him all the time.

He's an excellent carry. Top-tier free crit, free lifesteal that fully stacks with vlad's and other lifesteal items, huge STR, free aegis. He's a threat as soon as he has an Armlet and is very hard to kill.

Panda isn't a carry no matter how badly you want him to be. He's a great aura whore hero, though... cuirass, shiva, vlad's, etc, all very good on him.

[Deleted]

I meant more I think panda sucks in general, his window of usefulness always seems so small in my games.


I just never seem to have a big impact as WK, just seems to get kited all over the place and get the odd attack here and there, to me he seems like a poor mans Sven.

[PizzaSHARK]

I meant more I think panda sucks in general, his window of usefulness always seems so small in my games.

Panda is amazing. Drunken Haze OP as *fuck*, Drunken Jinada is amazing for laning and useful in general, stomp is... well, it's a garden-variety stomp. His ult wins teamfights if you use it decently. I don't like the Blink->Agh's build that the pros are doing, since I feel like Agh's has a small window when it's good, and then it's mediocre afterwards.

I'd much rather go for a quick Shiva, a quick Assault Cuirass, or even save up for a sheeper, or even a BKB if the enemy team has some kind of instant silence I need to worry about.

But seriously, Drunken Haze is fucking ridiculous. 26% slow at 850 range with 100% uptime, it's AOE, it costs almost nothing to cast, *and* it makes your target miss 75% of their attacks? Ridiculous. People maxing Drunken Brawler first are straight-up pants-on-head retarded *unless* the enemy team has no real right-click threats.

And even then, I'd still probably max Drunken Haze first, simply for the stronger slow.

I just never seem to have a big impact as WK, just seems to get kited all over the place and get the odd attack here and there, to me he seems like a poor mans Sven.

I've never had a lot of trouble with being kited, and even if they're kiting you, they're focusing on you and not your teammates. Phase Boots and a drums or yasha should eliminate any issues you have with being kited until they get force staffs etc (and force staffs screw over every melee hero.)

Leoric carries harder than Sven, but Sven is stronger early on and is especially far better at pushing. Personally I'd draft Leoric to be used alongside another melee carry, and then run Leoric as either offlane (literally any hero can offlane in a pub, regardless of MMR bracket) or just have him run as trilane support and get a late Midas for some later-game items.

Leoric+Slardar sounds terrifying together, it would let Leoric skip the blink dagger (since Slardar's gonna be the one blinking in to initiate ganks) and instead get an early Vlad's. Vlad's and Leoric aura stack, lifesteal is affected by enemy armor... Slardar's gonna be stealing enormous amounts of health very quickly, and if you can add in some kind of ranged support with a slow or stun, you've got a hideously strong trilane, too. Maybe, like, a Rubick or Shadow Demon. Soul Catcher plus Amplify Damage would probably result in even carries getting killed in 2-3 hits in the midgame.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure why you're so hung on the 'support' part (which again I never mentioned) but maybe you and Liilo both have hard time admitting you were wrong or something. It doesn't matter either way. And the 'mastering the scissors' part is exactly what I mean, being on top of the current copycat scheme is safer than trying to come up with something new. But that doesn't mean the meta isn't a huge snail train, but perhaps a roulette wheel that gets spun every 4-12 months is a better analogy.)

Because when this discussion happened people in this thread only talked about how carry WK was strong and the playstyle suggested and I only argued against that. Coming back to the thread saying you were right sounds silly when support was never mentioned. You said it was easy to predict WK would be popular after he became popular when you didn't mention anything about it before. And WK isn't popular anymore so even if you argued for support WK being popular and strong it still doesn't make you right. I also asked you whether it was support or carry you found easy to predict or did you find it easy to predict that some role of WK with some kind of playstyle would be popular within 1 year?

Feel free to link me what I was wrong about or what I should apologize for.

Yes, the game changes, new strategies are constantly popping up. I don't know what's so surprising about that. The meta isn't moving towards some perfect strategy. The pros aren't on a slow way to enlightenment about how to play this game.

[Deleted]

The moment I realised pro players were all idiots (bad not idiots) was TI3 final.

Wisp was in every game in the grand final and he was on the winning team every time, and nobody decided it was a good idea to ban him.

[Deleted]

Leoric+Slardar sounds terrifying together, it would let Leoric skip the blink dagger (since Slardar's gonna be the one blinking in to initiate ganks) and instead get an early Vlad's. Vlad's and Leoric aura stack, lifesteal is affected by enemy armor... Slardar's gonna be stealing enormous amounts of health very quickly, and if you can add in some kind of ranged support with a slow or stun, you've got a hideously strong trilane, too. Maybe, like, a Rubick or Shadow Demon. Soul Catcher plus Amplify Damage would probably result in even carries getting killed in 2-3 hits in the midgame.

You're always thinking how hard you're winning and always forgetting the enemy team. Besides how hard they could destroy you in an offensive trilane scenario, they can kite you around forever, split push you down, etc. Even KOTL+PL could just destroy you.

The moment I realised pro players were all idiots (bad not idiots) was TI3 final.

Wisp was in every game in the grand final and he was on the winning team every time, and nobody decided it was a good idea to ban him.

You ban something out, you slip something in. If I remember Puppey always first banned Chen+Naga in the finals, and if you know how potent Akke's Chen and EGM's Naga were you wouldn't wonder why.

[Deleted]

And how'd that work out for em ?

He should have banned Wisp instead of Chen, doesn't matter how good Akke is with Chen, Wisp was stomping games all over the place and they decided it wasn't worth banning him over a Chen.