[Megathread] DotA 2

[Scummer]

Its funny how we're seeing people now calling TB op given how before the patch I was seeing my fair share of people call him underpowered after the strength nerf.

[Deleted]

Its funny how we're seeing people now calling TB op given how before the patch I was seeing my fair share of people call him underpowered after the strength nerf.

He's not really that OP, he just seems to win few games with him and is now all like "WOW BEST HERO EVER". If I had to point out some of his flaws, I would say he's squishy and very susceptible to ganks early game due to no escape mechanism and relies too much on meta to do anything in mid game and when it is down, he pretty much sucks. Granted, 6 slotted late game he is a beast.

When I look at that game you posted, it seems like you would win with pretty much any other carry as well. Your team got wrecked and you just kept farming, probably got flamed hard in chat as well (judging from your score and the advantage they had the whole game). It's not like TB is the only or even the best hero who can split push towers, force people to rotate back and not join any teamfight and keep farming jungle.

To the radiance point, it's probably not so good as on other illusion based heroes because of how squishy TB is early and his lack of escape mechanism, but it speeds up your farm the most. Getting it just means you think it is safe to farm for another 10 minutes before joining any major teamfights. I personally prefer getting drums first or straight up manta, but I'm not the kind of player who wants to farm until 6 slotted.

[Deleted]

He's not really that OP, he just seems to win few games with him and is now all like "WOW BEST HERO EVER". If I had to point out some of his flaws, I would say he's squishy and very susceptible to ganks early game due to no escape mechanism and relies too much on meta to do anything in mid game and when it is down, he pretty much sucks. Granted, 6 slotted late game he is a beast.

When I look at that game you posted, it seems like you would win with pretty much any other carry as well. Your team got wrecked and you just kept farming, probably got flamed hard in chat as well (judging from your score and the advantage they had the whole game). It's not like TB is the only or even the best hero who can split push towers, force people to rotate back and not join any teamfight and keep farming jungle.

To the radiance point, it's probably not so good as on other illusion based heroes because of how squishy TB is early and his lack of escape mechanism, but it speeds up your farm the most. Getting it just means you think it is safe to farm for another 10 minutes before joining any major teamfights. I personally prefer getting drums first or straight up manta, but I'm not the kind of player who wants to farm until 6 slotted.

A few notes: I jungled from level 1, my team sucked pretty hard and enemies got nearly total map control and still I farmed pretty decent and outfarmed enemies sniper by large margin and traded towers while my team was dieing.
After I took top tier 3, my team got to the point of suiciding to create space for me, enemies left their sniper with mkb to defend from my push, so their teamfight was definetely less powerful and slower at killing heroes/towers, with my farm I was able to kill 1v1 sniper in a few secs and take racks while enemies were still busy at t3.
Ofc i'm not saying I played against skilled or experienced people, I don't want to sound cocky or anything, I'm not even as good as matrice.

You can't do that with any other carries, tb is probably the fastest farmer in the game and I don't know any other heroes who can push buildings and farm as faster as tb. If I farmed and joined teamfight with any other carries I would lose istantly because it was 1v5.
Yes he sucks when meta is on cd, but when it's down you just farm.

About radiance I suggest you going in lobby and see how it actually slows your farms and helps much less at pushing towers, just saying the same things matrice said and I agree with.

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Its funny how we're seeing people now calling TB op given how before the patch I was seeing my fair share of people call him underpowered after the strength nerf.

I was one of them because I kept at teamfighting and sucked hard before realizing how strong he is at killing buildings.

[Deleted]

He's not really that OP, he just seems to win few games with him and is now all like "WOW BEST HERO EVER". If I had to point out some of his flaws, I would say he's squishy and very susceptible to ganks early game due to no escape mechanism and relies too much on meta to do anything in mid game and when it is down, he pretty much sucks. Granted, 6 slotted late game he is a beast.

yep, he is absolutely trash in the early game. gank him dont let him get farm. And you shut him down totally, he has no escape and a piss poor health pool. But if you let him farm up, he is one of the best carries in the game, and has amazing push potential.

But if he gets that far, people only have themselves to blame. Gank the crap out of him and he will never catchup.

Then again, he can be a pubstomp hero, as hardly anyone in pubs ganks him, or interrupts his farm if you go jungling. Also, a lot of people dont realise what his ulti does, so they try to attack him, dont lock him down and then he ultis them and swats them.

[Deleted]

yep, he is absolutely trash in the early game. gank him dont let him get farm. And you shut him down totally, he has no escape and a piss poor health pool. But if you let him farm up, he is one of the best carries in the game, and has amazing push potential.

But if he gets that far, people only have themselves to blame. Gank the crap out of him and he will never catchup.

Then again, he can be a pubstomp hero, as hardly anyone in pubs ganks him, or interrupts his farm if you go jungling. Also, a lot of people dont realise what his ulti does, so they try to attack him, dont lock him down and then he ultis them and swats them.

You can say those things for every carry in the game.
"just ward their jungle"

It's about what he offers, we know hard carries suck when getting ganked at respawn.

[Deleted]

TB is one of the best heroes right now I think. Not sure how he will do in competitive because you can offensively lane against him and shut him down but TB is incredibly strong in pubs if you can play the hero. The hero is just an insane laner still and quite hard to gank. He has HP issues but with Drums and an Aquila he isn't that squishy to be honest. When I first saw his nerfs I was a bit disappointed because he was still the same when it came to pushing and farming in the mid-late game.

I recall facing matrice once when TB was still completely broken and I can't say I was impressed with his play. He's just a TB picker. matrice's weakness is his inability to pressure the map while farming. Compare this to when Arteezy plays TB and you see quite the contrast. Arteezy also doesn't put himself in the jungle to compensate for weak laning skills or being afraid to get shut down.

[Deleted]

TB is one of the best heroes right now I think. Not sure how he will do in competitive because you can offensively lane against him and shut him down but TB is incredibly strong in pubs if you can play the hero. The hero is just an insane laner still and quite hard to gank. He has HP issues but with Drums and an Aquila he isn't that squishy to be honest. When I first saw his nerfs I was a bit disappointed because he was still the same when it came to pushing and farming in the mid-late game.

I recall facing matrice once when TB was still completely broken and I can't say I was impressed with his play. He's just a TB picker. matrice's weakness is his inability to pressure the map while farming. Compare this to when Arteezy plays TB and you see quite the contrast. Arteezy also doesn't put himself in the jungle to compensate for weak laning skills or being afraid to get shut down.

I don't get weak laning skills, I mean yes arteezy has probably one of the best laning skill in the world but how much they matters while playing tb in safelane if your supports don't know how to play? What can you do with tb at early game besides punching creeps or right clicking stunned/controlled/slowed offlaner?

[Deleted]

I don't get weak laning skills, I mean yes arteezy has probably one of the best laning skill in the world but how much they matters while playing tb in safelane if your supports don't know how to play? What can you do with tb at early game besides punching creeps or right clicking stunned/controlled/slowed offlaner?

Solo kill the offlaner with Meta and slow? Or just zone him out? Or get farm against a dual offensive lane or even turning it around to getting kills?

If your supports don't know how to play it's even easier because it usually means the offlaner sucks too.

[Deleted]

Solo kill the offlaner with Meta and slow? Or just zone him out? Or get farm against a dual offensive lane or even turning it around to getting kills?

Yes, if your supports can't play how do you propose to play against dual offensive and get farm?

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If your supports don't know how to play it's even easier because it usually means the offlaner sucks too.

That's not entirely true, also at trench tier like I probably am, I rarely get solo offlaner and always get dual aggressive and get supports who pull without stacking or don't know how to harass or helping me take last hits

[Deleted]

You can say those things for every carry in the game.
"just ward their jungle"

It's about what he offers, we know hard carries suck when getting ganked at respawn.

and its esp true of TB.

A shockingly low health pool, no escape mechanism, a poor farm speed until later on in the game, lack of ability to quick clear creep waves....only 1 cc ability and quite frankly that one sucks.

Yes, like any carry you need to shut them down, but TB has flaws that are in my opinion worse than most carries, then again, he scales up to a scary degree if left alone. He's one of my fav heroes, but if you see him on the enemy team, make sure you have a ganker to counter him. As if he does not get a lead, he will struggle to catchup.

[Deleted]

Yes, if your supports can't play how do you propose to play against dual offensive and get farm?

That's not entirely true, also at trench tier like I probably am, I rarely get solo offlaner and always get dual aggressive and get supprots who pull without stacking or don't know how to harass or helping me take last hits

If you can't get farm on the safe lane in the trench it most likely means you have weak laning skills. It doesn't matter if your support sucks, your opponents suck too. If the opponent is smart enough to cast spells so can your support. You just have to capitalize on the moments where your support is there and go for kills.

[Deleted]

If you can't get farm on the safe lane in the trench it most likely means you have weak laning skills. It doesn't matter if your support sucks, your opponents suck too. If the opponent is smart enough to cast spells so can your support. You just have to capitalize on the moments where your support is there and go for kills.

I probably have weak laning skills, I just say that opponents who can cast spells don't necessarily mean your supports know how to do it, I mean I get mid necro with nothing but meka and dagon at 50 min, there's no surprise I don't trust other people to be able to cast spells at my enemies.

Against heavy nukes like trench people like to play like ogre magi, lich, lion, lina I don't know what I need to do while laneing. One game I had PA mid against mid lina, PA was so bad lina had aghs at like 15 min, she was literally oneshotting me with just aghs laguna blade, still won because I managed to farm decently and they kept taking bad fights/trades.
I found jungling better if they don't have a invi hero like bh who can leech my xp. Also taking the jungle frees the safe lane from the typical void/spectre/any hard carry last picker/insta picker you can get in any mmr.

[Deleted]

I probably have weak laning skills, I just say that opponents who can cast spells don't necessarily mean your supports know how to do it, I mean I get mid necro with nothing but meka and dagon at 50 min, there's no surprise I don't trust other people to be able to cast spells at my enemies.

Against heavy nukes like trench people like to play like ogre magi, lich, lion, lina I don't know what I need to do while laneing. One game I had PA mid against mid lina, PA was so bad lina had aghs at like 15 min, she was literally oneshotting me with just aghs laguna blade, still won because I managed to farm decently and they kept taking bad fights/trades.
I found jungling better if they don't have a invi hero like bh who can leech my xp. Also taking the jungle frees the safe lane from the typical void/spectre/any hard carry last picker/insta picker you can get in any mmr.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/943919037

Here. First time I played TB and I sucked. I still managed to get a kill against a dual lane. Would have been first blood if my top didn't kill stuff. First time I die is because I didn't know range of the slow, I thought it was much longer else that'd be a kill too because the ES wasted stun on nothing. I think the WR didn't have Windrun so I could probably have killed her but I wasn't sure. Either way, I underestimated how squishy the hero is early on, a mistake I wouldn't make in the future if I was to play the hero but I had no problem just farming on the lane. I also have this problem that if my opponents are bad I yolo way more than I should which is the reason I die 3 times like a retard in the first 5 minutes or something.

Notice how towers just melt the moment they leave me alone for one second. However, they did some seriously inefficient movements by rotating whole team to me but it worked out.

[Lysah]

You're complaining after what they did to Leoric?

That was blizzard et al lawsuit lololol
Not that SF might not have been, they did pretty much keep the firelord model from wc3 for him

Timbersaw with aghs is pretty strong, not played him since the patch but damn it has high nuke.

Yeay timber's scepter is OP, pretty easy to get multi kills and turn games around with it.

When I first saw his nerfs I was a bit disappointed because he was still the same when it came to pushing and farming in the mid-late game.

I agree.

Notice how towers just melt the moment they leave me alone for one second.

No mask of madness confirmed trench tier
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/720296597

@discussion
TB is mad OP and it's ridiculous that a hyper can solo kill most heroes in the game during lane phase. Meta is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too strong and that goes for his pushing capability as well. Give him his stats back and cut meta damage bonus in half.

[Deleted]

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/943919037

Here. First time I played TB and I sucked. I still managed to get a kill against a dual lane. Would have been first blood if my top didn't kill stuff. First time I die is because I didn't know range of the slow, I thought it was much longer else that'd be a kill too because the ES wasted stun on nothing. I think the WR didn't have Windrun so I could probably have killed her but I wasn't sure. Either way, I underestimated how squishy the hero is early on, a mistake I wouldn't make in the future if I was to play the hero but I had no problem just farming on the lane. I also have this problem that if my opponents are bad I yolo way more than I should which is the reason I die 3 times like a retard in the first 5 minutes or something.

Notice how towers just melt the moment they leave me alone for one second. However, they did some seriously inefficient movements by rotating whole team to me but it worked out.

A few considerations: In games I play I don't get WR without windrun nor I get WR as offlaner at all, I normally get bristle timbersaw clock mirana, I don't think they can killed easily as a WR with no evasion, mirana maybe if your supports can bait leap, even then you shouldn't be able to kill a decent WR at all with tb since he is all right click.

You had about my net worth at the same minute while having a kill, sure I didn't get contested in the jungle at all, not trying to imply I'm better than you, I'm sure you're better than I will ever be but I don't think you use the hero potential at its maximum, yes meta is so damn op in lane but nukes fuck you up hard as you could see and I think farming with illusions should be top priority to be able to rat as he can. In your game you had syllabear who farmed okay and helped you maintaining map control, I had nearly zero map control and still I managed more net worth while being 19-7 at min 20 for example.

Before you died you had nearly the same net worth I had, and I'm not even good at jungling, I'm sure you could do better than me.
Your team wasn't a bunch of feeders with 14 death as my teammates anyway.

Tb is probably better in lane, but even ignoring pubs or let's say you have decent supports I still think jungle tb is a thing to consider since how strong it can be and the fact that you free the safe lane.

[Replica]

http://www.twitch.tv/arteezy/b/574582399

If you want to learn SF. His laning is top notch and his Raze/auto-attack weaving is the best in the world.

1v1 mm is the easiest way to learn SF - or just go into one of the SF1v1 channels and find an opponent.
Watching shows you what to look for and how to take an advantage of it - sf is all muscle memory for the razes, and creep control to make them over commit into Z/X razes.

[Deleted]

A few considerations: In games I play I don't get WR without windrun nor I get WR as offlaner at all, I normally get bristle timbersaw clock mirana, I don't think they can killed easily as a WR with no evasion, mirana maybe if your supports can bait leap, even then you shouldn't be able to kill a decent WR at all with tb since he is all right click.

You had about my net worth at the same minute while having a kill, sure I didn't get contested in the jungle at all, not trying to imply I'm better than you, I'm sure you're better than I will ever be but I don't think you use the hero potential at its maximum, yes meta is so damn op in lane but nukes fuck you up hard as you could see and I think farming with illusions should be top priority to be able to rat as he can. In your game you had syllabear who farmed okay and helped you maintaining map control, I had nearly zero map control and still I managed more net worth while being 19-7 at min 20 for example.

Before you died you had nearly the same net worth I had, and I'm not even good at jungling, I'm sure you could do better than me.
Your team wasn't a bunch of feeders with 14 death as my teammates anyway.

Tb is probably better in lane, but even ignoring pubs or let's say you have decent supports I still think jungle tb is a thing to consider since how strong it can be and the fact that you free the safe lane.

The difference is you are contributing nothing to the game while AFK jungling in the early stages. Lone Druid was fucking me up more than helped me that game because he took all my farm. I had to do super-early offensive farming which created space but did nothing for my hero.

It's not all about net worth. A Furion in the woods farms faster than a offlane Furion yet you never see Furion woods in competitive. There is a reason for that.

Imagine if I had CM on my lane. That lane would have been a total stomp in my favor and their tower would have been gone shortly there after.

That I got WR on offlane is just what the game gave me, you know that right? You think Valve is against you and always match you up with feeders? Think a bit about it. Maybe it's because you contribute nothing to the team that you notice more feeders on your team.

[Deleted]

The difference is you are contributing nothing to the game while AFK jungling in the early stages. Lone Druid was fucking me up more than helped me that game because he took all my farm. I had to do super-early offensive farming which created space but did nothing for my hero.

It's not all about net worth. A Furion in the woods farms faster than a offlane Furion yet you never see Furion woods in competitive. There is a reason for that.

Imagine if I had CM on my lane. That lane would have been a total stomp in my favor and their tower would have been gone shortly there after.

That I got WR on offlane is just what the game gave me, you know that right? You think Valve is against you and always match you up with feeders? Think a bit about it. Maybe it's because you contribute nothing to the team that you notice more feeders on your team.

I traded towers while enemies were 5 man pushing, that's nothing? my team was feeding from the start. Pushing out the lanes is nothing? So why naga siren is used in competitive? what does she contributes?

[Deleted]

I traded towers while enemies were 5 man pushing, that's nothing? my team was feeding from the start. Pushing out the lanes is nothing? So why naga siren is used in competitive? what does she contributes?

I meant at the start of the game, the early game. Of course you are going to contribute once you leave the woods.

[Deleted]

I meant at the start of the game, the early game. Of course you are going to contribute once you leave the woods.

Okay, but how do you contribute as a naga in lane? Anyway as you are level 5 with meta you should definitely be able to leave the wood and push enemies t1 with the help of a support.