[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

Situational, with the terrible range and damage on fireblast I wouldn't recommend him for newbies or solo queue. It's pretty unlikely he gets kills by himself now, and he isn't a very good defensive support, so if your team sucks there won't be a lot you can do about it. I wish being tanky enough to go offlane was a selling point for him, but there are so many heroes that got overbuffed and can go AFK in the offlane now that he really is nothing special.

Plus unlike many support heroes Ogre can't flash farm if needed, to catch up. Being 80% single target hurts

[PizzaSHARK]

Na'Vi Dota 2 team disbanded. Reddit hugged the page to death so no full details.

Probably a good thing, overall. Dendi is, IMO, still a very strong player and this forces him to find a team that's better for him. He's a great guy, I hope he gets scooped up by a competent team and we see a less sad Dendi next year at TI.

[Drunkenvalley]

It's strongly implied that one or several of the players are still going to exist for the new team. So I'd wait and see how that fares.

[StrawberryZebra]

Plus unlike many support heroes Ogre can't flash farm if needed, to catch up. Being 80% single target hurts

With Multicast his Ignite has an AoE on it, even at rank 1 Multicast its enough to catch most of a camp and the damage it does is pretty significant, if not immediate. He might not be the best at farming, but he can certainly do it.
He's much better at just farming Heroes however, if you're behind its usually better to grab some friends, some smoke and go ganking.

[Lysah]

Was enemy carry alone? Because zoning a Lich is easy.

Last time I did it I was against slark/CM and wrecked both easily. CM eventually left lane and jungled full time because there's no way you can zone someone at your tower. Not sure how you plan on zoning Lich, he can have tranq boots by like 3 minutes and then he has 380 speed and will easily outclass other stunners/initiators and just walk away if you try to dive. If you don't dive he will just eat creeps and the wave will always be at his tower, especially now that he can eat siege creeps.

Na'Vi Dota 2 team disbanded. Reddit hugged the page to death so no full details.

Probably a good thing, overall. Dendi is, IMO, still a very strong player and this forces him to find a team that's better for him. He's a great guy, I hope he gets scooped up by a competent team and we see a less sad Dendi next year at TI.

I agree, Dendi is still one of the best mids in the world. I think it's funny how little credit he gets, and this is coming from a girl that spent most of the last 2 years thinking he was extremely overrated when people were still jerking him off. However, even in the qualifiers you could see him stand up to some of the other top mids and win or at least keep up easily, I don't think I've ever seen him outright lose a lane like many other top players do all the time. People started saying he was on his way out because of him doing weird shit like AFKing in the trees the whole game, but I honestly think most of his questionable decision making is due to him knowing his team isn't that good and them needing to make huge plays to win games. Hopefully he gets allies he can have a little bit more faith in in the future.

Even if he can't get a team, I hope he finds a way to stay in the community regardless. He seems to love being a part of it and he still has a huge fan following, and it's never a bad thing for us to have a guy that is always smiling around.

[Kuntantee]

Dendi is an entertainer. He deserves credit at least for that.

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Last time I did it I was against slark/CM and wrecked both easily. CM eventually left lane and jungled full time because there's no way you can zone someone at your tower. Not sure how you plan on zoning Lich, he can have tranq boots by like 3 minutes and then he has 380 speed and will easily outclass other stunners/initiators and just walk away if you try to dive. If you don't dive he will just eat creeps and the wave will always be at his tower, especially now that he can eat siege creeps.

They were constantly pushing in safe lane? If we are pushing in safe lane and we can't zone Lich or at least win the bloody lane (i.e., not get wrecked), I would make sure creeps are properly wasted in pulls. If Lich tries to get some xp, it's an easy kill.

[PizzaSHARK]

Last time I did it I was against slark/CM and wrecked both easily. CM eventually left lane and jungled full time because there's no way you can zone someone at your tower. Not sure how you plan on zoning Lich, he can have tranq boots by like 3 minutes and then he has 380 speed and will easily outclass other stunners/initiators and just walk away if you try to dive. If you don't dive he will just eat creeps and the wave will always be at his tower, especially now that he can eat siege creeps.


I agree, Dendi is still one of the best mids in the world. I think it's funny how little credit he gets, and this is coming from a girl that spent most of the last 2 years thinking he was extremely overrated when people were still jerking him off. However, even in the qualifiers you could see him stand up to some of the other top mids and win or at least keep up easily, I don't think I've ever seen him outright lose a lane like many other top players do all the time. People started saying he was on his way out because of him doing weird shit like AFKing in the trees the whole game, but I honestly think most of his questionable decision making is due to him knowing his team isn't that good and them needing to make huge plays to win games. Hopefully he gets allies he can have a little bit more faith in in the future.

Even if he can't get a team, I hope he finds a way to stay in the community regardless. He seems to love being a part of it and he still has a huge fan following, and it's never a bad thing for us to have a guy that is always smiling around.

Dendi in the Pudge outfit at TI5 was probably the highlight of the entire event for me. It was fun seeing Puppey and Dendi playing together, even if it was just a joke. It was also really sad because you could still see how sad Dendi was if you looked close enough. He's like one of the top mascots of Dota 2, the guy deserves better than he's been getting.

[Hermanni]

Dendi is an entertainer. He deserves credit at least for that.

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They were constantly pushing in safe lane? If we are pushing in safe lane and we can't zone Lich or at least win the bloody lane (i.e., not get wrecked), I would make sure creeps are properly wasted in pulls. If Lich tries to get some xp, it's an easy kill.

There really isn't beating offlane Lich, I mean your carry should still get decent farm in 2v1 if you don't fuck up massively but you can't stop Lich from sapping your carry's farm and you can't stop Lich from getting levels and farm. You can pull, sure, but that brings the creepwave to your end for moment and then it starts pushing back towards Lich's tower.

[Kuntantee]

There really isn't beating offlane Lich, I mean your carry should still get decent farm in 2v1 if you don't fuck up massively but you can't stop Lich from sapping your carry's farm and you can't stop Lich from getting levels and farm. You can pull, sure, but that brings the creepwave to your end for moment and then it starts pushing back towards Lich's tower.

Only thing you can't stop a Lich doing is sacrificing creeps. Other than that, Lich will die before TPs arrive in his own tower in a slark/CM combo if his hp is a bit down. If your definition of "not beaten" is getting xp when creeps arrive in your own tower, well, then entirety of hero pool wrecks the fuck out offlane.

Getting levels is understandable if the lane is not played aggressively but farm? I am quite confident it's not possible. If Lich was a pure win in lane, we would definitely see him in competitive scene as his utilities and damage is decent. If you are letting a Lich to get farm, you are doing it wrong. Simple as that.

Just made the damage calculation. A Lich has ~650 hp at lvl 5. CM/Slark combo can output ~725 damage in 2.5 seconds before resistance is applied. This is pure magic damage, right clicks are not even counted. Assuming Lich is leveling nova and sacrifice to win the lane, right clicks will be more effective. For level 3, lich has around ~550 hp, total magic damage output from these two heroes is 500. If fight takes place far from tower, it is a guaranteed death for a Lich in 1-2 seconds. Of course, these fights do not consider CM harassing Lich here and there to lower his hp. In that case, he will die even faster. Tranq boot will not help you recover hp as soon as possible which will halt your xp or at least gold farm.

Another thing is that tranq. boot is not a guaranteed escape mechanism when a player wants to harass you with a spell because if you are trying to get gold, that means you are close to creep wave. In that case, landing a spell is easy and almost guaranteed for CM. Not to mention some skills have very long range such as powershot.

The conclusion: if you are winning (getting xp and especially getting gold) the lane with a solo lich, you have shitty opponents.

[Jester Joe]

Speaking of tranq. boots, an oddly annoying choice I saw was Ursa with Tranqs. I had to lane solo against him as Dragon Knight, and god, he was too fast when they were up.

Never mind the fact that it was all random, and it was the same exact player who got Ursa again the second match in a row...

[Lysah]

The conclusion: if you are winning (getting xp and especially getting gold) the lane with a solo lich, you have shitty opponents.

...do you know what Lich does? Do you know what 3 creeps vs 4 creeps does to a creep wave? I'm not really sure I should need to explain how this works. You literally cannot do anything about Lich keeping the creep wave at his tower the entire lane phase, and he removes 25% of your GPM and XPM just by existing. He can also get the ocassional last hit with frost blast on a creep - something you also have literally zero ways of preventing. The only way you could possibly stop an offlane Lich from getting levels/exp is if your lane is so aggressive you can dive him flat out, but if you regularly do that and it invokes no TPs or counter ganks from mid, then you have shitty opponents.

The reason Lich doesn't get picked a lot in competitive is because he doesn't scale for shit after level 11 or so, but he is a God in lane phase. In fact, he was just used in EG vs monkey today and EG got absolutely shitstomped (and they are still arguably the best team in the world).

[Deleted]

In fact, he was just used in EG vs monkey today and EG got absolutely shitstomped (and they are still arguably the best team in the world).

Support lich not offlane lich, and they got stomped because they lost all 3 lanes(Doombringer>Centaur(aura buffed), QoP>Shadowfiend (3x kill) and Jakiro+Lich+BM >Razor+AA+Wraith King). I think Lich would cap out too early in the offlane and wouldn't have the same game impact that other offlane heroes can have.

[Mellomania]

VP used Venge as a carry vs LGD and won?
How viable is venge as a carry these days?

[StrawberryZebra]

The only way you could possibly stop an offlane Lich from getting levels/exp is if your lane is so aggressive you can dive him flat out, but if you regularly do that and it invokes no TPs or counter ganks from mid, then you have shitty opponents.

"Theres three of us and one of him, lets dive!" - Famous Last words scrawled on the graves of many would-be Lich Slayers.

In all seriousness though, Lich can keep the lane pushed towards his tower no matter what you try do to prevent it. If he's warding your camps then he's going to massively outlevel you and force you to be close to his tower for easy ganks from mid. He also has no mana issues and strong early game nuking potential. Most supports that try zone him alone eat a frost blast and a couple of autos before they get away. With Tranq boots he'll have healed up any damage he's taken by the time you're ready for another try at it, and with Sacrifice he'll come out ahead where mana is concerned too. He can basically grind you down one Frost Blast at a time until you need to go back to the fountain. If you try doing it with more than one person you need to be extremely careful or you're going to be getting hit with Chain Frost.

Do remember that Lich is going to get enough XP to be at least as useful as any other offlaner regardless of how well the lane is going for him and typically doesn't need many items to be effective. He'll do okay by default.

VP used Venge as a carry vs LGD and won?
How viable is venge as a carry these days?

She's not really a carry. She can substitute for one when games are going badly, her base stats are pretty good all round and she has good Agi and Str growth. But her attack range is a little too short really, and unlike Luna or Gyro she doesn't have any way to bump up the range or any strong nukes to deter people from getting up close. Comparing her Melee carries she also lacks a survivability passive or illusions and such to prevent damage. Couple that with her extremely risky play style and you're looking at a carry thats likely to be dead before they get much damage off.

She can however fill the same sort of role as someone like Mirana or Slark, where you're looking to help your team get kills and will build offensive items to that end, but later on in the game you're relegated to back up damage dealer rather than your teams primary carry and you've got to rely more on the utility in your kit rather to be useful rather than your damage.
Venge does this straight out of the box without the need for items though, which is why she's usually played as a support, that way she can swap whoever she needs to without really worrying about the consequenes.

[Mellomania]

She's not really a carry. She can substitute for one when games are going badly, her base stats are pretty good all round and she has good Agi and Str growth. But her attack range is a little too short really, and unlike Luna or Gyro she doesn't have any way to bump up the range or any strong nukes to deter people from getting up close. Comparing her Melee carries she also lacks a survivability passive or illusions and such to prevent damage. Couple that with her extremely risky play style and you're looking at a carry thats likely to be dead before they get much damage off.

She can however fill the same sort of role as someone like Mirana or Slark, where you're looking to help your team get kills and will build offensive items to that end, but later on in the game you're relegated to back up damage dealer rather than your teams primary carry and you've got to rely more on the utility in your kit rather to be useful rather than your damage.
Venge does this straight out of the box without the need for items though, which is why she's usually played as a support, that way she can swap whoever she needs to without really worrying about the consequenes.

I like playing venge, but the range is disgustingly short indeed D:

[Kuntantee]

...do you know what Lich does? Do you know what 3 creeps vs 4 creeps does to a creep wave? I'm not really sure I should need to explain how this works. You literally cannot do anything about Lich keeping the creep wave at his tower the entire lane phase, and he removes 25% of your GPM and XPM just by existing. He can also get the ocassional last hit with frost blast on a creep - something you also have literally zero ways of preventing. The only way you could possibly stop an offlane Lich from getting levels/exp is if your lane is so aggressive you can dive him flat out, but if you regularly do that and it invokes no TPs or counter ganks from mid, then you have shitty opponents.

The reason Lich doesn't get picked a lot in competitive is because he doesn't scale for shit after level 11 or so, but he is a God in lane phase. In fact, he was just used in EG vs monkey today and EG got absolutely shitstomped (and they are still arguably the best team in the world).

Thank you for confirming pretty much everything I said. Sure, when creeps are on his own tower, diving may invoke TPs, however, wasting creep waves in pulls every once in a while will bring creeps to your own tower. Plus, you can start denying creeps as early as possible to prevent hard pushing.

This is a back paddle from "you can't stop Lich farming" or "no matter what, you wreck every hero combo" to "occasional last hits". You are aware of that right?

When creeps are pushing other way, he will be zoned. Other than that, I can agree that Lich is one of the stronger offlaners but nowhere near as strong as you express.

And do you seriously give a support Lich as an example in this discussion? What's the point? Current meta is all about winning lanes and carrying the advantage over mid, early late game. No-matter-what-he-wins offlane Lich, as you put it, fits quite well to the current meta. If that was the case, we would definitely see him.

[Lysah]

Support lich not offlane lich, and they got stomped because they lost all 3 lanes(Doombringer>Centaur(aura buffed), QoP>Shadowfiend (3x kill) and Jakiro+Lich+BM >Razor+AA+Wraith King). I think Lich would cap out too early in the offlane and wouldn't have the same game impact that other offlane heroes can have.

They also had safe lane centaur, when Lich went to his safe lane he was actually going to the offlane. So, yeah, it was still an offlane Lich. It doesn't matter what lane he went to, he went to the hardest lanes and won them by pressing E, that's what he does. The only difference is that he wasn't solo in those lanes.


@Kuntantee
Nowhere did I say Lich would have 600 GPM in the offlane. I said you can't zone Lich, because creeps will always be at his tower, and he can get last hits to boot.

[Hermanni]

Thank you for confirming pretty much everything I said. Sure, when creeps are on his own tower, diving may invoke TPs, however, wasting creep waves in pulls every once in a while will bring creeps to your own tower. Plus, you can start denying creeps as early as possible to prevent hard pushing.

This is a back paddle from "you can't stop Lich farming" or "no matter what, you wreck every hero combo" to "occasional last hits". You are aware of that right?

When creeps are pushing other way, he will be zoned. Other than that, I can agree that Lich is one of the stronger offlaners but nowhere near as strong as you express.

And do you seriously give a support Lich as an example in this discussion? What's the point? Current meta is all about winning lanes and carrying the advantage over mid, early late game. No-matter-what-he-wins offlane Lich, as you put it, fits quite well to the current meta. If that was the case, we would definitely see him.

You're not really getting the dynamic of the lane. First of all you have to assume, for the sake of the argument, that the Lich player has brain and doesn't put himself in a position where he can be killed unless the risk is worth taking. By sacrificing creeps he ensures the lane will always push back to his tower within a minute. By sacrificing creeps and being in range of most creeps, he will usually remain ahead of the lane support in levels and usually at least even with the experience of the carry.

Most 2v1 safe lanes are beat with good lane management from the carry player and pressure from the support player. Most heroes can't do anything about a perfectly executed 2v1 safe lane. Lich can do it, and exluding feeders every Lich player will do it. That's why Lich will always remain top pub winrate heroes, he wins whatever lane he is in.

Besides Sacrifice, Lich has good damage, good MS, good attack range. Thanks to mana from Sacrifice and the almost inevitable Tranquils any support trading hits with Lich will usually lose. If the support gets too low and retreats Lich is free to take farm and XP even when the lane isn't in his end, and if the support leaves lane Lich will direct his Nova spam on the carry that often can't manage it.

What you keep arguing about is just semantics. There isn't a defined win condition for offlaning. But what usually happens with Lich is that he will 1) hurt your carrys farm 2) vastly beat your support in farm and xp 3) force your support to remain in a lane where they can't do much. Lich does this consistently and regardless of the lineup he's against, and that's about as much impact an offlaner (that isn't Brood or such) can realistically hope to have.

[Kuntantee]

You're not really getting the dynamic of the lane. First of all you have to assume, for the sake of the argument, that the Lich player has brain and doesn't put himself in a position where he can be killed unless the risk is worth taking. By sacrificing creeps he ensures the lane will always push back to his tower within a minute. By sacrificing creeps and being in range of most creeps, he will usually remain ahead of the lane support in levels and usually at least even with the experience of the carry.

Most 2v1 safe lanes are beat with good lane management from the carry player and pressure from the support player. Most heroes can't do anything about a perfectly executed 2v1 safe lane. Lich can do it, and exluding feeders every Lich player will do it. That's why Lich will always remain top pub winrate heroes, he wins whatever lane he is in.

Besides Sacrifice, Lich has good damage, good MS, good attack range. Thanks to mana from Sacrifice and the almost inevitable Tranquils any support trading hits with Lich will usually lose. If the support gets too low and retreats Lich is free to take farm and XP even when the lane isn't in his end, and if the support leaves lane Lich will direct his Nova spam on the carry that often can't manage it.

What you keep arguing about is just semantics. There isn't a defined win condition for offlaning. But what usually happens with Lich is that he will 1) hurt your carrys farm 2) vastly beat your support in farm and xp 3) force your support to remain in a lane where they can't do much. Lich does this consistently and regardless of the lineup he's against, and that's about as much impact an offlaner (that isn't Brood or such) can realistically hope to have.

I am not arguing semantics, I am arguing absurd claims. The winning condition for an offlane is, imo, well defined. If you do not feed, get xp and get some farm on the side, it's a win. However, when you claim you wrecked your opponents with a Lich, not because your opponents are plain bad (or your are good), but because Lich is so strong or when you claim you can't stop Lich from getting farm, it is, again, not "semantics", it's plain absurdity.

[Hermanni]

I am not arguing semantics, I am arguing absurd claims. The winning condition for an offlane is, imo, well defined. If you do not feed, get xp and get some farm on the side, it's a win. However, when you claim you wrecked your opponents with a Lich, not because your opponents are plain bad (or your are good), but because Lich is so strong or when you claim you can't stop Lich from getting farm, it is, again, not "semantics", it's plain absurdity.

I claim you can't stop Lich from getting farm due to the reasons I stated above. You can call it whatever you want and you'll still be wrong.