[Megathread] DotA 2

[Hermanni]

Tiny's scepter upgrade is currently WAY above what others get from their scepters, so it needs to be cut down to size, or others need to be brought up to its level.

No it doesn't, and I already explained why, so why don't you come up with something new instead of repeating yourself.

[Enkidulgaa]

Why ain't you raging about Lion and Lina, who basically have the same ultimate?

Some homogeneity is required if you want a game to be balanced because there has to be a baseline that everything operates around. Tiny's scepter upgrade is currently WAY above what others get from their scepters, so it needs to be cut down to size, or others need to be brought up to its level. Tiny's scepter essentially acts as an upgrade to his ultimate like other skills, but it also essentially gives him a free Battle Fury on top of it. Tiny's ultimate gives him huge attack damage and bonus damage to Toss; why does his scepter upgrade give him cleave in addition to bonus damage (this time vs buildings) and bonus Toss damage?

Because he needs like 80 attack speed before he even starts to see any benefit from it. So he needs Aghs, 1 attack speed item to compensate his ult. After that he can start building luxury items, which is usually: more attack speed and crit. He needs like 4 or 5 items so he can one shot someone thats stunned, before that he gets kited to hell and back. So in the end he is like every other melee carry

[Lysah]

He doesn't really need attack speed when he does 1200 damage with his combo with nothing but scepter and boots.

[PizzaSHARK]

Because he needs like 80 attack speed before he even starts to see any benefit from it. So he needs Aghs, 1 attack speed item to compensate his ult. After that he can start building luxury items, which is usually: more attack speed and crit. He needs like 4 or 5 items so he can one shot someone thats stunned, before that he gets kited to hell and back. So in the end he is like every other melee carry

You can also get attack speed through teammates - Beastmaster aura, Wisp, Ogre Magi... hell, even Invoker can provide it for a short period of time. Keep in mind, Tiny only gets 50 negative IAS from his ulti, so a single Hyperstone already counters that. I guess it's still something else he's gotta buy, but it's cheaper than a Battle Fury.

And Tiny still has a lot of magical burst with his combo, even before he gets enough IAS to run around beating people to death with his stick before they come out of the stun. Hell, even without IAS he's still whacking towers and rax for like 600 damage with just scepter and some mild items - that's pretty significant. If Tiny gets a DD rune he can hit towers and rax for well over 1000 damage a swing without too many items.

[Hermanni]

Hell, even without IAS he's still whacking towers and rax for like 600 damage with just scepter and some mild items - that's pretty significant. If Tiny gets a DD rune he can hit towers and rax for well over 1000 damage a swing without too many items.

Skipping the other BS because I already argued that, but you might want to check your math (or logic?) in this bit. Level 25 Tiny with Scepter hits for around for 300 damage every 1.6 seconds. I'm not sure why you'd need to add a DD rune because it's not like anyone can have that, but that ups him to 600, at which point his raw output against buildings with the 1.75x Scepter bonus would indeed be around 1000. Too bad Scepter still doesn't let him bypass building damage penalty and building specific armor, which I expect you already knew but still wanted to try to create a mental image of 'holy shit tiny 2-shots buildings.' With these in mind Tiny deals around 200 damage to base towers, or a bit above 100 without that DD rune you had to add so someone might buy your bullshit.

And against non-buildings Scepter still doesn't give Tiny any direct damage, save for the +10 Strength/Agi and ~30 to his Toss, and even with a Hyperstone a level 16 Tiny hits just about fast enough to land maybe 2 hits during his combo, with or without a Scepter.

[Lysah]

Pretending like one of the best farmers in the game only has scepter at level 25

I realize you are just trying to prove him wrong since he was exaggerating, but hyperbole is just something everyone does (see, I just did it!).

Any late game Tiny certainly kills a tower in 4-5 hits, barracks go down substantially faster, I have had games where I was able to kill a barracks in three hits and they didn't take long to dish out. The fact remains that Tiny can dodge a team fight and destroy your base before you can possibly wipe his team. Just by having scepter and blink/lothar's he prevents you from fighting outside your base unless you can kill him, first. That's power few other heroes have, only Clinkz and Furion come to mind; Furion is predictable and Clinkz is typically wardable. Tiny kills twice as fast as both of these heroes and is a lot harder to kill, himself. Hell, between craggy/toss/avalanche he can flat out ignore a hero or two and just keep beating your base to pieces while you enjoy permanently stunning yourself and being flung back to the fountain.

[Hermanni]

I realize you are just trying to prove him wrong since he was exaggerating, but hyperbole is just something everyone does (see, I just did it!).

Any late game Tiny certainly kills a tower in 4-5 hits, barracks go down substantially faster, I have had games where I was able to kill a barracks in three hits and they didn't take long to dish out. The fact remains that Tiny can dodge a team fight and destroy your base before you can possibly wipe his team. Just by having scepter and blink/lothar's he prevents you from fighting outside your base unless you can kill him, first. That's power few other heroes have, only Clinkz and Furion come to mind; Furion is predictable and Clinkz is typically wardable. Tiny kills twice as fast as both of these heroes and is a lot harder to kill, himself. Hell, between craggy/toss/avalanche he can flat out ignore a hero or two and just keep beating your base to pieces while you enjoy permanently stunning yourself and being flung back to the fountain.

I don't disagree that Tiny destroys buildings quickly, but he still needs lots of farm to get past backdoor protection by himself. 4-5 hits seems a bit off though, because people don't generally build direct damage items for Tiny (save for MKB/Daedalus) so I doubt dropping a base tower in 4 hits is possible without a Rapier or four.

[PizzaSHARK]

Exactly how does backdoor protection work? Does it regenerate HP based on incoming damage or is it simply a flat rate? Because it seems like hitting a building for 300-500 damage a whack would outweigh anything less than like 300/sec regen.

[Hermanni]

Exactly how does backdoor protection work? Does it regenerate HP based on incoming damage or is it simply a flat rate? Because it seems like hitting a building for 300-500 damage a whack would outweigh anything less than like 300/sec regen.

It's 90 hp/sec, so in order to get past it on a base tower you'd need to hit for about 300 damage on 1 second AT (assuming nothing reduces said buildings' armor), but you'll obviously need to do a lot more than that to kill a building in a reasonable time.

[Sarevokcz]

Exactly how does backdoor protection work? Does it regenerate HP based on incoming damage or is it simply a flat rate? Because it seems like hitting a building for 300-500 damage a whack would outweigh anything less than like 300/sec regen.

300-500 damage? have you actually done the math what kind of items would you need on t3 tower to hit for that much? Im pretty sure in addition to full inv tiny, you would need atleast deso on tower and DD/empower on him. t3 towers have like what, 70-80% damage reduction, regardless of the type of attack? tiny just doesnt three hit towers until game gets quite long already, at which point alot more heroes can easily backdoor and if your whole team pushes, the half a second longer life for the tower barely matters

[Intropid]

Only as overpowered as Drow ranger is underpowered.

Yet everyone and there grandma plays her.
2/3 games I play, there is both a Riki and a Drow Ranger.

[Lysah]

I don't disagree that Tiny destroys buildings quickly, but he still needs lots of farm to get past backdoor protection by himself. 4-5 hits seems a bit off though, because people don't generally build direct damage items for Tiny (save for MKB/Daedalus) so I doubt dropping a base tower in 4 hits is possible without a Rapier or four.

People who build anything but damage on Tiny are wasting their gold.

[Morally Grey Storm]

oh what a wonderful feeling when you cast Death Pulse + Dagon5+ Reaper's Scythe and that feth-head who molested you whole game, just explodes.
I'm loving Necrolyte, what a cheerful old man

People who build anything but damage on Tiny are wasting their gold.

ehrm, Soul Ring?
Arcane Boots?
Shiva?)

[Hermanni]

People who build anything but damage on Tiny are wasting their gold.

I kind of had bad wording there but by damage I only meant raw +damage items which would let you kill towers in fewer hits, but rushing Daedalus + MKB + Abyssal + Desolator doesn't make much sense on a hero that already has huge base damage. Unless that in your opinion is appropriate use of gold, in which case I beg to differ.

[Lysah]

Buriza/scepter/boots/AC or mjoll are pretty core as it is. Add in blink or preferably Lothar's for initiation and you're left with one item for choice. Some pick manta, some pick AC, but that's already six items and your build is done.

Clinkz is still better at backdooring and kills towers even faster, but Clinkz can't combo someone for 900 damage at level 8 when it will pretty much one shot anybody. To also have craggy, which is the most ridiculous defensive ability on par with backtrack, Tiny is certainly one of the strongest heroes in my opinion, and my top played and top successful.

[Xothic]

Yet everyone and there grandma plays her.
2/3 games I play, there is both a Riki and a Drow Ranger.

People play riki because they like permanent stealth, people play Drow because she is (in my opinion) not as hard to master as other heroes.

[PizzaSHARK]

Yet everyone and there grandma plays her.
2/3 games I play, there is both a Riki and a Drow Ranger.

Drow is very strong after her changes and is extremely easy to play. Riki... well, in most pubs invisibility = invincibility. He's still strong at higher levels of play, especially once he finishes his Diffusal.

[Sarevokcz]

Drow is very strong after her changes and is extremely easy to play. Riki... well, in most pubs invisibility = invincibility. He's still strong at higher levels of play, especially once he finishes his Diffusal.

I hear this all the time, but I cant remember the last time people actively didnt buy anti-invis items, and Im pretty sure Im bad enough to play in relatively low skilled games. maybe its different in US, I dont know, I play EU west and east, but there is dust and wards in almost all games with invis heroes, regardless if our team or the opponents have one and I play invis decently enough, Nyx is my top pick ever since they brought him to dota2 and gondar isnt far behind, so i figure out pretty quickly they have wards when i try to jump those supports and they melt me coz they were baiting me

[Kuntantee]

I hear this all the time, but I cant remember the last time people actively didnt buy anti-invis items, and Im pretty sure Im bad enough to play in relatively low skilled games. maybe its different in US, I dont know, I play EU west and east, but there is dust and wards in almost all games with invis heroes, regardless if our team or the opponents have one and I play invis decently enough, Nyx is my top pick ever since they brought him to dota2 and gondar isnt far behind, so i figure out pretty quickly they have wards when i try to jump those supports and they melt me coz they were baiting me

People mostly buy consumables for invisible heroes in my games but friend of mine who's new in DotA and playing in low MMR. I can, without a doubt, say that I haven't seen any truesight consumable in any of his games. He tends to pick rikimaru a lot.

[Lysah]

I go entire games without true sight all the time, I'm pretty sure its a pub thing and not a MMR thing. Even good players can be too "lazy" to buy dust/sentries in public games.