Thread: I Am Blood DPS

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  1. #161
    So much hate in this thread. I personally do this all the time. If you're saying its not viable, you're wrong. As it sits, I have "tanked" as blood dps on heroic morchok, yorsahj, ultraxion, and spine. Sure I may not be pulling the 40k of our shadow priest, but I AM pulling around 30k+ depending on fight, right below our lowest "dps" (resto sham that switches to ele for 2 heal fights). Sure if you're going to try this as a pure DPS role, you're probably not going to be optimal compared to a frost or unholy dk, but if you can learn to do this as a tank, and not get raped in the process you have just become one of the most important people in the raid. The fact that you can pull solid numbers, tank the boss, AND provide a massive 1 minute raidwide healing cooldown means you effectively help as every role in the raid. How many other classes can accomplish this? None.

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  2. #162
    "How many other classes can accomplish this? None."

    Um... you do see that this could be a problem, right?

    For the heroic tank who subs in dps gear- before our Blood DK took a break from raiding, he did the same, and to great effect. But the point isn't that you can tank heroics in less gear (in 10% nerfed DS, with healers with a bunch of 410 gear), it's that you are doing that on FARM content. Moving from survival to defense when the survival isn't important is great, but I doubt you are going to be on your first madness kill with five pieces of dps gear on. I also doubt you wore this damage gear when this content was meaningful to your guild.

    I think the issue that needs most addressing on tank / dps simultaneity is feral combat. That spec is very important in 10m heroic raiding, allowing for a lot more slack, based on the ability to go cat form whenever you can and put out surprisingly great numbers. Blizzard is fixing (nerfing) this in panda, with the new guardian spec having a much less potent cat form.

    It's also worth pointing out that I don't think anyone begrudges (or does anything but cheer) when a blood DK is tanking and is clever enough to put out some big numbers to help get the kill. I think the issue comes about when blood is being used as dps- the OP points out some pretty interesting things about grabbing vengeance without putting himself or the raid in danger, and then turning that into damage. This might be dps level damage, is the point, and that is both interesting (the subject of my previous posts) and at the same time something that can't really be tolerated by Blizzard.

  3. #163
    Mechagnome esoterickk's Avatar
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    I see blood as top spec on H ultraxion? He's 15% above the next highest blood but hey, it counts. Also, the ~45k the rest of the bloods are plateauing at is equal to frost. Unless you want to tell all DKs they can't raid as frost, I don't see how you can make this point.
    Not quite sure what you're looking at if you're replying to me (considering post is after):

    #1 Blood DK Parse on 25 Heroic Ultraxion: 42642
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...5&e=4526#Lucia

    #1 Frost DK Parse on 25 Heroic Ultraxion: 47566
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=6462#Ibanel

    #1 Unholy DK Parse on 25 Heroic Ultraxion: 51617
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...&e=4953#Kapaya

    ~5k behind Frost, ~9k behind Unholy (as said in my previous post).

    The real argument you should be making is any fight EXCEPT H ultaxion, because blood is ridiculously behind the other two in all fights. But then again, frost is severely behind unholy, and no one bats an eyelash if people raid as frost. If you're sticking to "do the best you can always," every single DPS DK in the world needs to be unholy, by this logic.
    Exactly why I chose Ultraxion. This fight favors Blood most and yet it is still so far behind. Claiming this as competitive is downright wrong, and requires you to be in a sub-par spec to pull sub-par numbers; or be decked out in full heroic gear and be able to tank it at the same time (as our DK does for every fight).

    For that matter, how many DKs are raiding as blood in DPS gear? I highly doubt the people main tanking Morchok are in DPS gear. This is the same problem we ran in to with subtlety and beastmastery - sure, you can say it looks bad on paper, but there actually is no experimental evidence. You can point to world of logs all day long where BM is doing 15k on fights MM is doing 25k on, but does it mean anything? How many people in full heroic gear are raiding as BM to see where the spec ACTUALLY stands? (hint: literally zero, their guilds would never let them "underperform")
    That's the thing, a lot of the top Blood DK parses are infact in DPS gear. Considering things are nerfed to shit and it's all on farm, it gives them the leeway to do so without hindering the raid. For it to be effective you need to be able to tank the boss in DPS gear and have a raid to handle that; which will come in farm via being able to not-care and do these things.

    From a progression stand-point this is horrible though.

    If you're Blood and solely DPS'ing, it's shit. You are required to take extra damage in order to build vengeance and pull low numbers.
    If you're tanking and going for the extra DPS, you get hit harder. Negating the primary purpose of being a tank via reducing damage as much as possible, just to push a little more damage.

    The only time it's viable is if your Healers can handle it and you want to push your Tank's/raid's damage. Claiming Blood as a higher Tank DPS spec is correct. However claiming Blood as a competitive DPS spec soely: no, just no.
    Last edited by esoterickk; 2012-03-13 at 10:13 PM.

  4. #164
    I dunno I think blood dps could have a spot in a raid. There is some utility that may make the spec useful. Heroic Morchok for instance is often hard on guild that 3 heal is and putting your plate wearers and a blood dps as soaker on the solo healing side could be pretty handy.

    Shockadins have on several occasions been decent also. I wouldn't get too attached to it though, it's not what is intended out of the blood spec and it will likely get broken if it's too good.

  5. #165
    The Patient Halym's Avatar
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    If you're actually taking a DPS slot in a raid and using blood as your spec, you're a waste of time, space, and air.

    Respec frost or unholy or leave the raid.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by DaNoob2 View Post
    I dunno I think blood dps could have a spot in a raid. There is some utility that may make the spec useful. Heroic Morchok for instance is often hard on guild that 3 heal is and putting your plate wearers and a blood dps as soaker on the solo healing side could be pretty handy.
    Still unless you really really really struggle with healing sub rogues and kitties (with bear talents) are way better for that.
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  7. #167
    While I give props to pulling this off to the OP and few others who have, I can see this being killed come MoP.

    And how? One easy fix: Vengeance does not stack unless in Blood Presence. Now, you are a serious threat issue to the raid. I would not be surprised if they did something along these lines for all tanks:

    Paladin: Prot Spec + Righteous Fury
    Warrior: Prot Spec + Defensive Stance
    Druid: Guardian Spec + Bear Form
    DKs: Blood Spec + Blood Presence
    Monk: Brewmaster Spec + Drunken Monkey Form? (I dunno on that one, but sounds cool!)

  8. #168
    The Patient Pikevinge's Avatar
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    Well, I don't see Blood dps as optimal, 6 of the DKs out of the 10 that killed Heroic Ragnaros were blood dps. So OP isn't the only one doing it.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    People keep saying this in this thread, and I just have to say nerf DKs ^_^

    I'll be brutally honest, I haven't raided since my guild died doing heroic BoT/BWD. I assume tanking heroic mode fights requires tank gear, if so many people insist they do it in DPS gear, then perhaps there's a much larger issue with the death knight class going on =p
    The issue is that Blood mastery scales differently to other tank masteries, so in old (soloing old stuff), nerfed (ie Heroic Firelands after the 30% nerf, or DS in the progressive nerf) or otherwise massively outgeared content, we scale better.
    To add to this, DKs are the only tank with a mitigation mechanic that allows for player input to a large extent, in that if Blizzard expects us to be pushing 6 DS/min and we're pushing 12, we're gaining twice the benefit from Mastery that they intended. Also, pushing out twice the number of DSs tends to increase your damage by a massive amount.
    To further add to this, a DPS stat (Haste) gives us a significant (tho, not as significant as "traditional" tank stats) survivability boost, by effecting the above figure.

    So, between the massive buffs given to Blood in 4.3 (see one of my previous rants), and the above factors...you can use your own ability with playing the class well to mitigate the survivability loss from not wearing tank gear. It's no different to a shield tank capping hit/exp and stacking crit after CTC cap, except DKs have the added "benefit" of the (re)active mitigation model, whereas the other tanks do not.

    When or if all tanks move to an active mitigation model, it's entirely possible that all tanks will work this way; instead of focusing on lowering damage incoming, they could instead focus on increasing their damage output. It's just at the moment DKs (and Druid, tho that's more based on them having access to synergistic Cat abilities) are best at utilising this method.

  10. #170
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikevinge View Post
    Well, I don't see Blood dps as optimal, 6 of the DKs out of the 10 that killed Heroic Ragnaros were blood dps. So OP isn't the only one doing it.
    They were blood for reasons not related to dps.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroEdgeir View Post
    While I give props to pulling this off to the OP and few others who have, I can see this being killed come MoP.

    And how? One easy fix: Vengeance does not stack unless in Blood Presence. Now, you are a serious threat issue to the raid. I would not be surprised if they did something along these lines for all tanks:

    Paladin: Prot Spec + Righteous Fury
    Warrior: Prot Spec + Defensive Stance
    Druid: Guardian Spec + Bear Form
    DKs: Blood Spec + Blood Presence
    Monk: Brewmaster Spec + Drunken Monkey Form? (I dunno on that one, but sounds cool!)
    Doesn't that already work that way for Druids?
    GC: Good news, everyone! We lowered the cooldown of Shield Wall to 5 sec and balanced assuming you hit it every 5 sec.

    Tanks: Um.... Thanks? Could you maybe just make it a passive at that point?

    GC: But hitting buttons is fun!

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowviper View Post
    Wow, people seems to be getting pretty angry because someone broke the norm and tried something different. I applaud you for trying something different from what the internet or other people say are correct. We need more of this and less of everyone being the same spec or geared. Try some new things. Cataclysm is pretty much over.
    Except that he is not trying anything different and he is not breaking the norm. He stated in the OP that he was referring to LFR and Normal. What he is doing is the exact same thing that myself and a lot of other DK tanks are doing and that is blood spec + dps gear. The difference here is that he wants to do it while he isn't tanking which is going to keep him at around 20k less attack power than me.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-14 at 05:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroEdgeir View Post
    While I give props to pulling this off to the OP
    Except that he hasn't pulled anything off.

    A dk tank in dps gear will beat a blood dk in dps gear that isn't tanking. He will not achieve any noticeable WoL records unless he is tanking and keeping that vengeance stacked. If he is just trying to have fun that is great, i'm hapy for him but if he really wants to see what blood dps can do he needs to try it while holding agro.

    Warriors and Paladins are able to throw on dps gear while wearing their one handed wep + shield and tank like that in normal and LFR, are they not? So it's not just a DK thing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-14 at 05:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DaNoob2 View Post
    I dunno I think blood dps could have a spot in a raid.
    They do! Right in front of the boss. When you say "blood dps" what you are actually saying is "blood tank in dps gear"

    Quote Originally Posted by DaNoob2 View Post
    There is some utility that may make the spec useful. Heroic Morchok for instance is often hard on guild that 3 heal is and putting your plate wearers and a blood dps as soaker on the solo healing side could be pretty handy.
    Ewww 10man! Yes sir, you're right.. I could see this working. A blood tank in dps gear would be able to soak stomps just fine and may even keep enough vengeance to do some nice dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaNoob2 View Post
    I wouldn't get too attached to it though, it's not what is intended out of the blood spec and it will likely get broken if it's too good.
    I doubt it will be changed and if it is it won't be due to this. Vengeance is the key to all of this. The only way this would even be considered for change is if he found a way to maintain max vengeance while not tanking.
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  13. #173
    gonna say this is awesome.. since veng stacks up instantly now and ds has so much raid damage this makes blood dps very competitive id say.. and fun.. id always laugh while doing 40k dps to mobs in my tanking spec.. even with tanking gear on and just spamming heartstrike.. im sure with pure dps reforges and a dps based spec u do way more.. but i digress.. id wanna see some logs for normal ds

  14. #174
    just go frost will u ? blood is ment for tanking

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by announced View Post
    id wanna see some logs for normal ds
    Go here:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...agon_Soul/dps/

    Click on 25man Normal if you want. Then decide which boss you want to review. Don't click the boss name, click the "more" link at the bottom right of each boss's table. That "more" link will take you to a page where you can sort by class and spec. For Morchok it will result in this page for blood dks.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/..._Death_Knight/

    While all most of those parses that you review will be of blood dks in dps gear.... the catch is that they are all likely tanking/holding agro for max vengeance.
    armory - wowheroes - wowprogress
    Are you looking for a 25man raiding guild? We raid on US - Thunderhorn from 8-11 server time Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights. Check us out at http://www.twilight-alliance.com

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Judson View Post
    Go here:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...agon_Soul/dps/

    Click on 25man Normal if you want. Then decide which boss you want to review. Don't click the boss name, click the "more" link at the bottom right of each boss's table. That "more" link will take you to a page where you can sort by class and spec. For Morchok it will result in this page for blood dks.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/..._Death_Knight/

    While all most of those parses that you review will be of blood dks in dps gear.... the catch is that they are all likely tanking/holding agro for max vengeance.
    Which is why your suggestion is pointless in the first place? Logs of an actual 'dps' blood dk are what are desired, not tanks in DPS gear doing what they're supposed to.
    Either way, as noted plenty of times this seems better than it probably 'should' be, but it's still not as good as frost or unholy so who cares.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by theyanger View Post
    Logs of an actual 'dps' blood dk are what are desired, not tanks in DPS gear doing what they're supposed to..
    There is no such thing as a dps blood dk. There is only a blood/tank dk in dps gear. If you aren't holding agro for vengeance you're gimping yourself.

    The terminology is what is leading to your confusing.. stop calling them "dps blood dks" and start calling them "blood dk tank in dps gear"

    Before you ask "why" I will go on to explain. If you have two equally skilled blood dks in equal dps gear, one is tanking the other is trying to not tank and just dps... the one tanking will out dps the one not tanking EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-16 at 01:31 PM ----------

    The only exception would be if you could find a way to keep max vengeance while not tanking.
    armory - wowheroes - wowprogress
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  18. #178
    So, I made a small experiment on alt run with gemming for haste instead of strengh. Results are... pretty good.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ktilm2xw8b3k991a/
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...anthe/advanced

    However... I have to agree that unless you tank boss, you won't pull that dps. Even with max Vengance all the time, only thing you gain is some secondary stats that you can free from hard expertise capping. Also, using any presence other than Blood, you loose so much from not being able to Rune Strike and missing faster rune regen from talent (1 sec GCD from UH is only good if you actually have abities to hit, not waiting for runes cooldown).

    Imo if you are doing content where dps geared tank won't be globalled, just tank it in the dps gear. On any content where bosses actually hurt and survivality is issue, play UH/Frost which will pull few thousands more. Unless you like keeping your group behind - I'm sure people who are min-maxing and prepotting enjoy that all their collective work is nulled by one person.

  19. #179
    Dreadlord xtramuscle's Avatar
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    My 2 cents (from a Blood DK [tank] who regularly ranks on WOL)

    Blood does have great DPS potential, but by not tanking you are limiting that, by vengance starving yourself.
    I see (and with good reason) you undervalue the 4set bonus, as you rate mastery as your lowest secondary stat. Does this mean you will disregard the ilv (thus additional strength) on 410 HC tier, for more favorable secondary stats on the 397 off pieces (again gimping yourself)?
    At LFR/Normal level this may be competitive, but at true endgame (HC Gear) this wont be viable compared to a competent frost/unholy DK.

    Vexxe of Old School.



    Streaming MOP raids live: (14/14HC 25Man SoO) and WOD Beta (Leveling and raid testing Heoric/Mythic) @ http://www.twitch.tv/vexxee

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowviper View Post
    Wow, people seems to be getting pretty angry because someone broke the norm and tried something different. I applaud you for trying something different from what the internet or other people say are correct. We need more of this and less of everyone being the same spec or geared. Try some new things. Cataclysm is pretty much over.
    if people have been around wow forever, this is just old news with the same syndrome: i'm different so i'm special

    different isn't special, it's different. in this case it's inferior damage production in a spec that is meant for tanking. the game is tuned around certain things like this spec not being for damage while the other TWO are just for damage

    this is like mage or hunter tanking. different. not optimal, not viable just because you completely outgear something or have people to take up your slack

    this game isn't meant to be flexible in this way. it's creating slack. you're doing worse because others can take up your slack. you have that right, you don't have the right to call it viable.

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