Questions about Ancient Macedonia.

[Deleted]

Right, but tell that to F.Y.R.O.M., because they:
1. Try to establish a link to an ancient culture that is in no way related to theirs, and

Well, ok, but how else should they call themselves? We have a huge number of such examples in whole Europe. Even in my own country, Croatia, we have Dalmatians, who call themselves after ancient illirian tribe, while they're actually slavs, and also Istrians, who name themselves after, again, illirians Histrii. Or to be more precise, they name themselves not after ancient people, but after ancient name for those lands. So it's quite normal that people living in what was once Macedonia, call themselves Macedonians, no matter that they're not ethnic macedonians. Also Egypt after ancient Aegyptus, although they're now mostly Arabs. And many more examples...

How much exactly are they related to ancient Macedonia should be a matter for historians, not politics. I'm quite sure that they have few wackos, pseudohistorians, who invent their own history and have wild claims about history of modern Macedonians, but again, what's the difference in everyday life for everyone if that country is named Macedonia or something else?

The way I see it is that anonimous politicians and wannabe famous "experts" are creating a "problem" where there isn't one. Then they present themselves as "problem solvers" and make career out of it.

2. Use that link as a basis to claim a bunch of land of surrounding nations to be theirs.

I honestly doubt that official macedonian government is actually making actions with the goal of getting lands of surrounding nations. It's more likely that some radical fraction with 0,1% votes is beeing vocal trying to up their popularity. We all have such radicals with wild claims, but they're minority.

[Cybran]

I see Gothicshark is still trying to peddle his version of history where everyone living in Europe outside of the Roman empire was Germanic.

In reality the Northern Parts of the Balkans were inhabited by many different tribes of Thrachians. The Yogoslavian part was inhabited by Scordisci who are believed to have been Thracians with a Celtic ruling class or a mix between Thracians and Celts. The Scordisci, Medi, Tribali, Gatae, Dacians and other tribes successfully held their part of the Balkans until the Dacians and Gatae betrayed their neighbours and sided with the Roman Empire.

Burebista who handed over the Balkans to the Romans was later assasinated, because he backed the enemies of Gaius Julius Caesar.

Bulgarians took up Orthodoxy due to close proximity with Byzantine Empire

It wasn't that. Religion has always been a political tool in Europe. The Vatican and Constantinople had a bidding war for those countries. Constantinople offered an independent church, patriarchy and allowed Slavonic to be used for rituals while the Vatican couldn't allow that which is why they lost the bidding.

[Dragon2K]

THIS is why it is a problem:



That is what they are teaching in F.Y.R.O.M. schools. The dark teal part is the current F.Y.R.O.M. The yellow, purple and red regions are areas of Macedonia occupied, as described by the map, by Albania, Bulgaria and Greece respectively. So it's not just Greeks that should be pissed of. Albanians and Bulgarians also have to deal with radical F.Y.R.O.M. nationalists claiming large areas of their land. Alright, probably not TOO much land in Albania's case, but I do know that their claims of Greek Macedonia include Thessalonika, one of the largest cities in Greece. In fact, they want Thessalonika to be the capital of "United Macedonia".

Surely you would understand that Greeks feel rather shitty about Yugoslavians turning around saying that THEY are the "true Greeks" and that they are in fact the modern descendants of the ancient Macedonians. While the lineage between modern and ancient Greeks is rather murky, the ancient Macedonians certainly were not Slavic. Despite this, F.Y.R.O.M saw fit to erect a statue of Alexander the Great in Skopje.

Sure, their "Greater Macedonia" fantasies have no actual political weight and nothing meaningful will become of them. There is still something deeply wrong about trying to steal someone's culture and convincing an entire generation with propaganda to make them join the cause. Is the Greek government just as corrupt and if not more? Sure! The Greek government is one of the most corrupt and ineffective governments in the developed world. But two wrongs don't make a right.

And this is what I mean by being petty and childish. Greek macedonians are trying to monopolize the term 'macedonia' and certain slav macedonians are having wet and highly improbable dreams of a 'greater Macedonia'. Greek stubborness over the name has led to FYROM going all out in their antiquity nonsense, which the Greeks see as further appropriation of 'their' heritage. Never mind that neither current day Greeks nor current day Macedonians have anything at all to do with the ancient Kingdom of Macedon, which was after all over 2400 years ago.

And now both sides are being super childish about it. Greece should just get over itself that there's people who self-identify as Macedonian (if anything a cultural victory you would say) and there's nothing they can do about it, and (FYRO)Macedonia should get over itself and accept that Greek and Albanian Macedonians are not going to be part of their nation.

There's your agreement:
- People who self-identify as Macedonian gets to call themselves Macedonian
- FYROM just becomes Republic of Macedonia
- Macedonia gives up any imagined rights to parts outside their current territory and promises to fight against this stupid 'United Macedonia' idea.
- Both sides tone down on the nationalist rethoric and stop claims to being 'the only TRUE successors to Alexander the Great!' Because it's fucking childish.

- Anyone who can't agree to these terms is a crybaby and gets deported to Turkey.


If it's *absolutely necessary* they could implement a transition period where Macedonia is called 'New Macedonia' or 'Upper Macedonia' or whatever for the first 50 years. Or whatever.

[Miloscub]

It wasn't that. Religion has always been a political tool in Europe. The Vatican and Constantinople had a bidding war for those countries. Constantinople offered an independent church, patriarchy and allowed Slavonic to be used for rituals while the Vatican couldn't allow that which is why they lost the bidding.

I know that,was in a hurry when I wrote my wall-of-text,what I meant was that the Patriarch in Constantinople had a bigger influence on Bulgaria/Serbia due to its proximity (Then the Pope) + what you said,allowing Slavic to be used in churches instead of greek. Pilgrims and priests converted local populace bit by bit in those times, Catholics from the west,Orthodox from the east,well tehnically they weren't split up back then,this was like 9th-10th century or something,and the Great Schism was in 1054 if I recall.

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I honestly doubt that official macedonian government is actually making actions with the goal of getting lands of surrounding nations. It's more likely that some radical fraction with 0,1% votes is beeing vocal trying to up their popularity. We all have such radicals with wild claims, but they're minority.

I've been to Macedonia,they actually have their whole "history" in school books and they teach their kids that fairytail of Great Makedonija and how they should take the territories that belonged to them somehow even tho they weren't even a country up until '91 with the fall of SFRJ,so its not some 0.1% group if its in the official school history books and stuff...sadly. They aren't making any actions,but they still spread propaganda about it,no idea what the goal is there.

[Deleted]

Macedonians, Spartans, Corinthians, Athenians +100 more city states and territories were ALL GREEK.
They spoke the same language, they had the same gods, they had the same traditions, they had the same culture, the same teachers, the same everything.

It's 2014 now. Pick a random little 4th grade school kid and give him an Alexander's speech or a Macedonian script. HE WILL UNDERSTAND not only the text but also what the author meant.
Now, take a teacher from Skopjie and give him the same scripts. He will feel like trying read chinese and even when someone will translate it to him he will not understand the meaning.

The real difference between Skopjie and Macedonia is exactly what happens with everything greek in the last centuries.
When someone is the absolute zero (as a civilization, nation, history, science achievements through centuries) then it really needs to be even number 0.01 at some point of his life otherwise he will burn in jealousy.

And there are 2 easy ways to unstuck from the bottom of zeroness:

1) Steal the glory of the neighbour. Like Skopjie, like ALL the art museums around the world (especially the British, Louvre and NY.Metropolitan), like MOST of the major scientists do the last 20 centuries (lawyers, doctors, mathematicians, astronomers... you name it)
2) Degrade the "opponent"

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Since the winter olympics are running atm. Answer me that pls : In the ancient years you could participate to the olympics ONLY if you were greek (and the law was very strict about that). How come Macedonians were participating in all ancient olympics;

[Dragon2K]

/deports BOEING to Turkey.


Modern nations including their national stories were all invented in the last three hundred years. If you want to be proud of whoever you imagine (because that's what it is, imagination) your ancestors to be, fine. But you don't have an exclusive right to them.

You are petty, smallminded and part of the problem.

[Deleted]

If you want to be proud of whoever you imagine (because that's what it is, imagination) your ancestors to be, fine. But you don't have an exclusive right to them

Show me exactly the line where i claim that i am proud of whoever i imagine(?) to be my ancestors pls.
Also show me the line where i said that i have the exclusiveness to them.

IF and WHEN you find those 2 lines then pls go to my 2nd reasoning which it was that :

2) Degrade the "opponent"

==========
If you don't manage to find those 2 lines you're accusing i said/claimed.. it's ok, shit happens.
I would also like an answer to the question i made about the Olympics (from you or anyone else reading this post)

[Dragon2K]

Show me exactly the line where i claim that i am proud of whoever i imagine(?) to be my ancestors pls.
Also show me the line where i said that i have the exclusiveness to them.

IF and WHEN you find those 2 lines then pls go to my 2nd reasoning which it was that :

==========
If you don't manage to find those 2 lines you're accusing i said/claimed.. it's ok, shit happens.
I would also like an answer to the question i made about the Olympics (from you or anyone else reading this post)

My reply was based on an impression that you're trying to claim 'Macedonia' for 'Greece'. If that's not what you're saying then I have no idea what you ARE trying to say...

And 'degrading the opponent' seems to be exactly what you did in your first post.


(Also I didn't say you were proud of anyone, I said *if* you were... and if you could take off the jingoistic blinders for a half a minute you could see how completely irrelevant your question about the Olympics is.)

[Dhrizzle]

I'm sure they had Greek-like names, after being conquered by som many different peoples however I'm sure they all left their own traces behind. Look at the English language as a result of Britain being conquered by the french/vikings/romans, they all have had major influences on the language.

I had to go make a cup of tea just so I could spray it over my monitor in outrage.

[Deleted]

My reply was based on an impression

So, you admit that it was out of the element. Ok

And 'degrading the opponent' seems to be exactly what you did in your first post.

Well excuse me but Greece never stole any cultural treasure from England, from USA, from France (partially because.. they didn't have much worth to be stolen)
Greece never had any territorial claims from neighbour or not countries based on ancient maps for unliberated population like Skopjie, Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania.. even Switzerland!!! have from Greece.
As we speak, Greece is the only European country and only country in the world which has 1 casus belli running, 1 occupation army in her grounds and 4 countries claiming grounds, demanding their return and drawing new maps, writing new history books, voting new constitutions for "freeing the enslaved population"
So the opponents in Greece's case are the offensive ones and you don't see it like this... well, plese forgive me for defending my ancestors grounds and history

.. you could see how completely irrelevant your question about the Olympics is.)

I still want an answer to my irrelevant question. Come on, it's not that hard to answer it. Especially all of you who are so open minded and not blinded like me.

I repeat the question : Why Macedonians were participating in all ancient Olympics?

[belfpala]

This exactly.

I know the Greeks were even angry at some point that Macedonia called itself Macedonia, although they weren't successor of the mighty kind-of-Greek empire. Nitpicking in all it's glory.

Greece itself has a name change to speakers of English. Ἑλλάς or Ελλάδα or Ελληνική Δημοκρατία is nothing like "Greece" how I say it.

Just curious why the OP cares about proper names. Greece isn't the only country, state, or city to have a name change in another language.

Edit for example: I'm from the US. US would properly be EU (Estados Unidos) in Spanish. That might cause some confusion. Further, Spanish would properly be Español in Spanish. So many wrong words there...

[Dragon2K]

So, you admit that it was out of the element. Ok


Well excuse me but Greece never stole any cultural treasure from England, from USA, from France (partially because.. they didn't have much worth to be stolen)
Greece never had any territorial claims from neighbour or not countries based on ancient maps for unliberated population like Skopjie, Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania.. even Switzerland!!! have from Greece.
As we speak, Greece is the only European country and only country in the world which has 1 casus belli running, 1 occupation army in her grounds and 4 countries claiming grounds, demanding their return and drawing new maps, writing new history books, voting new constitutions for "freeing the enslaved population"
So the opponents in Greece's case are the offensive ones and you don't see it like this... well, plese forgive me for defending my ancestors grounds and history

And so you go on to prove that it wasn't out of element at all?


I'll humour you and answer your question and tell you WHY it's irrelevant. Macedon were invited to the hellenic games because they were considered part of he hellenic world, as was.. EVERYTHING BLUE ON THIS MAP: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t_colonies.PNG
Are you going to lay claim on spain and turkey next?
And ALL of that was part of the Roman Empire. Does Italy get to claim Greece now?

You are NOT Ancient Greece. The idea that there's some kind of contingency from 2500 years ago to now in 'greekness' is a MYTH, just as EVERY modern nation has myths like that.
And you can't tell OTHER PEOPLE what myths they get to hang on to; they're no more or less valid than yours.

And if you would read what I said, Macedon has to stop with the antiquity bullshit too. I was NOT blaming Greece, I was saying both countries are acting like children.

This entire conflict is about MADE UP STUFF. If the Republic of Macedonia is called that, not a single Greek loses anything. If said Republic starts decrying the United Macedonia concept and drops the antiquisation bullshit, EVERYONE wins (perhaps with the exception of some rabid nationalists who can't suffer the other to live).

If you want to fight about who's the 'real macedonians' or Greeks or whatever, do it in football, do it in sports, do it in games, but don't bring it into real politics that should be about ACTUAL REAL problems instead of made up ones.

[Deleted]

And so you go on to prove that it wasn't out of element at all?


I'll humour you and answer your question and tell you WHY it's irrelevant. Macedon were invited to the hellenic games because they were considered part of he hellenic world, as was.. EVERYTHING BLUE ON THIS MAP: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t_colonies.PNG
Are you going to lay claim on spain and turkey next?
And ALL of that was part of the Roman Empire. Does Italy get to claim Greece now?

You are NOT Ancient Greece. The idea that there's some kind of contingency from 2500 years ago to now in 'greekness' is a MYTH, just as EVERY modern nation has myths like that.
And you can't tell OTHER PEOPLE what myths they get to hang on to; they're no more or less valid than yours.

And if you would read what I said, Macedon has to stop with the antiquity bullshit too. I was NOT blaming Greece, I was saying both countries are acting like children.

This entire conflict is about MADE UP STUFF. If the Republic of Macedonia is called that, not a single Greek loses anything. If said Republic starts decrying the United Macedonia concept and drops the antiquisation bullshit, EVERYONE wins (perhaps with the exception of some rabid nationalists who can't suffer the other to live).

If you want to fight about who's the 'real macedonians' or Greeks or whatever, do it in football, do it in sports, do it in games, but don't bring it into real politics that should be about ACTUAL REAL problems instead of made up ones.

plz check that video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTUqfuTbk_s
ignore the Greek on the video and focus on the english answers from students in Skopje 0:24 till 0:40 the question was where they believe the borders of there country end
now make this question to your self if this and the future generations of ppl grow up in Skopje with the idea that half of Greece is ocupiy terretory of Macedonia what will happen in 50-100 years from now note that this kids must be to the age of 25 now since the video is like 10 year old

[Deleted]

/deports BOEING to Turkey.

That's hilarious, because it would be like going home for him probably. 'Greek' Macedonia would have been Slavic today (Northern part still is) if not for population exchanges between Greece n Turkey. Muslims in the Balkans moved to Turkey and Christians in Turkey (Asia) moved to Greece, namely Greek Macedonia. So you have these people...who are from Asia, have been living in Europe now less than a century that claim they are direct descendants of Alexander of Macedonia even though that's in Europe and they are not from there...

They, newcomers, tell the Slavs that Slavs don't belong there even though the Slavs have been there ca 1500 years, that's way over a millenia, this from people that have been there only recently less than a century. Greeks have not much ground to stand on in this issue, especially not when these greek "macedonians" now live on land and homes they got from Slavs through ethnic cleansing, thieves!

There's also that the Greeks were part of Byzantium which was mostly an Asian empire, most of it was in Asia Minor n the Middle East. The lingua franca ie international language there was Greek.

Macedonians, Spartans, Corinthians, Athenians +100 more city states and territories were ALL GREEK.
They spoke the same language, they had the same gods, they had the same traditions, they had the same culture, the same teachers, the same everything.

It's 2014 now. Pick a random little 4th grade school kid and give him an Alexander's speech or a Macedonian script. HE WILL UNDERSTAND not only the text but also what the author meant.
Now, take a teacher from Skopjie and give him the same scripts. He will feel like trying read chinese and even when someone will translate it to him he will not understand the meaning.

Language = ethnicity? I guess that makes you Anglo-Saxon? Everyone on this forum is Anglo-Saxon since the language here written is in English?

Your Byzantine community refused to see themselves as Greek, that was provincial and belittle to them since they were a Roman Empire. That empire was asia and middle east and from there come today many "ethic greeks" There's a lot of Asian in you Greeks, since medieval times, and during that time the Slavs in Macedonia lived in Europe and not in the middle east. You are a Greek-Arab mix methinks, many Middle Eastern Christians fled the Jihads and guess where they went? Funny a bunch of Middle Eastern descent people can come and point fingers...

While you say you can read old greek (a parrot can repeat it) it's still an alien culture, Greeks and Slavs are of Orthodox civilization, Alexander is alien to both, so I don't see the point of arguing about him, he is nothing but an excuse to argue about who should hog all ze land.

I should point out that ancient greeks called macedonians for barbarians, a term they reserved only for foreigners, non-Greeks, and they continued to see the macedonians as not real greeks even after the macedonians adopted that culture and language.

Greece never had any territorial claims from neighbour or not countries based on ancient maps for unliberated population like Skopjie, Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania.. even Switzerland!!! have from Greece.

LOL? If any country then it's Greece that's well known for crazy expansionist ideas, megali idea, ever heard of it? Yes, you have, just wanted half Balkans, and asia minor.

Just "minor" claims?...

I had to go make a cup of tea just so I could spray it over my monitor in outrage.

England was conquered by the Normans, from Normandie ie France

Spanish would properly be Español in Spanish.

Spain means lands of bunnies...and they think they so macho

plz check that video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTUqfuTbk_s
ignore the Greek on the video and focus on the english answers from students in Skopje 0:24 till 0:40 the question was where they believe the borders of there country end
now make this question to your self if this and the future generations of ppl grow up in Skopje with the idea that half of Greece is ocupiy terretory of Macedonia what will happen in 50-100 years from now note that this kids must be to the age of 25 now since the video is like 10 year old

This is a map of the Bulgarian Exarchate church, the map shows the believers those who chose, through democratic elections to join that church, or the Greek church. The map shows those who became part of the Bulgarian church at the end of the Ottoman Empire when there came more religious freedoms. Notice almost all of Macedonia is included? You realize that the current borders are political and ethnicity doesn't stop at political borders?

This is a religious map, not a political one, so don't get all flustered about it.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-1870-1913.jpg

It's sad that you call your Slavic minority in todays Greece for "Slavophone Greeks" basically if a Chinese person moved to Greece, he's an ethnic Greek that happens to speak Chinese?.. You Greeks are really really, and I mean really paranoid about admitting you country isn't 100% ethnic pure greek since antiquity..

[Dragon2K]

plz check that video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTUqfuTbk_s
ignore the Greek on the video and focus on the english answers from students in Skopje 0:24 till 0:40 the question was where they believe the borders of there country end
now make this question to your self if this and the future generations of ppl grow up in Skopje with the idea that half of Greece is ocupiy terretory of Macedonia what will happen in 50-100 years from now note that this kids must be to the age of 25 now since the video is like 10 year old

I think I addressed this. Macedonia has to cut that shit out. I don't see how denying them their country's name is helping anyone. Everyone needs to STOP WITH THE CHILDISH BULLSHIT is the point I'm trying to make. Then put that in a treaty and sign it.

Why are we still having this retarded tribalism in 21st century Europe?

[Deleted]

I think I addressed this. Macedonia has to cut that shit out. I don't see how denying them their country's name is helping anyone. Everyone needs to STOP WITH THE CHILDISH BULLSHIT is the point I'm trying to make. Then put that in a treaty and sign it.

Why are we still having this retarded tribalism in 21st century Europe?

who denying them as a country? they exist who ever say the oposite is just stupid its the name that we are denying if for example a neighbor country wanted to take the name of a region in your country and with that the history of that region following with believes like those on the video that i linked i dont think you or anyone else would have better reaction
if they want to exist as a free nation they should just pick another name its simple as that tho i guess after 23 years they cant do it the what they believe got roots in there brains by now

about the question why we have this retarded tribalism in 21st century Europe? you should make that question to FYROM they are those with the dillusions my name if i will decide one day that im Bill Gates dosnt mean that i am and most sertent dosnt mean that i can believe part of his money his house or a part of his property belong to me

[Deleted]

OP i think you mistake the Greek Macedonian part of Greece with Fyrom. They call themselves Macedonians but they have nothing in common with Greeks.

[AlexJordanMK]

Ok its time to get a bit involved here
I see the greek members here are kinda on fire
They say everything we learn and think is false ... Well my friend if your people think we have some propaganda in our schools about the things we learn , what makes you wright ? Have you ever considered that your people also have propaganda and not teaching you facts?(im not implying about the ancient history , im saying about more recent history 100-150y back)
Did the fact that Macedonia was split 100y ago when the Balkan wars were on is a lie ? I dont think so , you can find all kind of proofs all over the internet(wiki,etc).. did your school said something about the 50000 families banished from the north part of Greece ? cuzz im sure that aint a lie, i had a great grandfather whos parents were killed back then , i bet they didnt teach you that
Overall not much Macedonians have the so called idea of Great Macedonia (a kid with some photoshop skills who painted some map parts with different color , doesnt make us greedy) i honestly think thats your propaganda my friends , that our nation has some desire so your people have that hate towards us and calling us monkeydonians and other ugly names .
Anyway i also see all of the dispute childlish and hope the best will come out of it someday ..
Sry about the bad grammar.

[Prokne]

England was conquered by the Normans, from Normandie ie France

Normans, from Normandy, who were Scandinavian. Norman is another name for North Man. They did speak French by that time which is why there is a lot of French in English.

Modern Macedonia has a lot of non-Greek place names because it was taken over by non Greek speaking peoples after about 600 AD. The modern state doesn't really have anything in common with the ancient one besides the name and that they are in roughly the same place. Its like this in a lot of areas were the country names are preserved but the people that live there are very different than the ones who originally named it.

[Deleted]

Ok its time to get a bit involved here
I see the greek members here are kinda on fire
They say everything we learn and think is false ... Well my friend if your people think we have some propaganda in our schools about the things we learn , what makes you wright ? Have you ever considered that your people also have propaganda and not teaching you facts?(im not implying about the ancient history , im saying about more recent history 100-150y back)
Did the fact that Macedonia was split 100y ago when the Balkan wars were on is a lie ? I dont think so , you can find all kind of proofs all over the internet(wiki,etc).. did your school said something about the 50000 families banished from the north part of Greece ? cuzz im sure that aint a lie, i had a great grandfather whos parents were killed back then , i bet they didnt teach you that
Overall not much Macedonians have the so called idea of Great Macedonia (a kid with some photoshop skills who painted some map parts with different color , doesnt make us greedy) i honestly think thats your propaganda my friends , that our nation has some desire so your people have that hate towards us and calling us monkeydonians and other ugly names .
Anyway i also see all of the dispute childlish and hope the best will come out of it someday ..
Sry about the bad grammar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece) read

if im wrong feel free to correct me
from what i know Greece took macedonia on the Balcan wars from the Ottoman Empire
Before Ottoman Empire conqure the region of Greece therefore also Macedonia as far as i know it was Byzantium that was controling the region of Macedonia
before Byzantium the region of Macedonia was controling Greece before you will start crazy partys go to the 1st page and check my 1st comment about ancient Macedonia
about the photoshop thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTUqfuTbk_s is that photoshop?

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I think I addressed this. Macedonia has to cut that shit out. I don't see how denying them their country's name is helping anyone. Everyone needs to STOP WITH THE CHILDISH BULLSHIT is the point I'm trying to make. Then put that in a treaty and sign it.

Why are we still having this retarded tribalism in 21st century Europe?

1 more thing that i just remember Greece and FYROM agreed that the name of Macedonia will be FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) now after many years of Greek inaction every map that you will open you will see Macedonia officialy every Internasional organism UN etc knows Macedonia as FYROM now after 100 years who knows they might come and take the house that i have in Thessaloniki and im not over exaggerate the name in not nagotiable they want to exist on EU? they must or pick another name or Greece get out of EU