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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    They were more than popular enough with seperate lockouts, so if it was a problem caused by blizzard they would have been dying then, not since the lockout merge.
    No, it is players and players only.
    Very few 25m guilds formed since Cataclysm came out. With DS being the last raid in Cataclysm, apathy has set in, and now you're seeing a lot of the remaining 25m guilds die off. It just took a little time and pressure, but it was predictable since the beginning.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-20 at 04:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by stfouri View Post
    Like its Blizzards fault so many people PREFER doing things on 10man with FRIENDS?
    What people ultimately choose to do depends on a lot of factors, and "what's most fun" is not the only factor that gets considered. Blizzard is being a bit disingenuous by assuming that 10m and 25m are equal and the only difference between the two is "preference." They're not equal; the latter takes a lot more work to set up, which is entirely independent of whether it makes for a better experience.

    Blizzard's focus should be on providing the best experience to their players, and if this means killing both 10m and 25m to create a 15m raid size, then they should do that and stop pretending to be servicing people's preferences. No one is served by having to pick between two dysfunctional choices.
    Last edited by rkma; 2012-03-20 at 08:13 PM.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by CDShaidar View Post
    You are time and time again proving my point by going to tuning arguments to justify why 25 is harder than 10 man and thus why there should be more reward. Blizzard is doing nothing to "FORCE" 25 mans anywhere. They've simply allowed people to choose what raiding format they prefer and it's beyond insane to me that you think people should be enticed to run 25 mans through extra rewards that would actually rather being running in a 10 man group.
    In this thread we have people, in the same breath, claiming that 25 mans have a higher completion percentage than 10 mans because the player base is more skilled and has been weeded down to only good players and then turning around and saying it's harder to find skilled 25 man players than it is to find skilled 10 man. It's asinine. My opinion is and always has been that 10 an 25 mans need to be as equal as possibly in all things that grant rewards so that in the end the player is choosing based on what size they enjoy, not what size rewards them more.
    Your just throwing wild generalisations everywhere. You barely even make sense.

    Blizzard DID force 25mans into a tight spot, when they allowed to pool of potential 25man raiders a new option, 10man. This has severely diminished the recruiting power of each and every 25man guild. I have experienced myself. I have had many conversations with other 25man guild officers about it. Its just logically that would happen when Blizzard makes a change like that. Whether its intentional or not, good or bad for WoW, is besides the point I was stating. 25mans potential recruiting pool was forced to be smaller, plain and simple.

    Also in your sweet little number, you try to say I'm justifying 25man's harder than 10man's? I challenge you to quote where I say that. You can't. Because I did not say that. You have lost all credibility.
    Last edited by TheVadar; 2012-03-20 at 11:48 PM.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVadar View Post
    Blizzard DID force 25mans into a tight spot, when they allowed to pool of potential 25man raiders a new option, 10man. This has severely diminished the recruiting power of each and every 25man guild. I have experienced myself. I have had many conversations with other 25man guild officers about it. Its just logically that would happen when Blizzard makes a change like that. Whether its intentional or not, good or bad for WoW, is besides the point I was stating. 25mans potential recruiting pool was forced to be smaller, plain and simple.
    I get your point but - albeit not native english - I find your wording quite weird. First of all, it's a game, nothing is forced here. And if anything was forced, it was 25m in wrath. UNforcing something like that, aka taking away certain extra's/bonuses, I wouldn't call forcing. It's the way you look at it I suppose; they are just trying to even out the 2 raiding sizes now.

    Having a luxury and then that being taken away from you and having same as others I would personally not label as "I'm being forced to less"; I'd call it "I'm getting evened out and had the good deal and enjoyed it while it lasted".

  4. #224
    It's a lot harder to manage a 25m raid group and maintain a roster that size. In Wrath you were essentially forced to raid 25, that's why there were so many 25m guilds. Now that you can get the same rewards from 10m, people choose the type of raiding group they would prefer, which has lead to a lot of 25m guilds downsizing to 10m or disbanding altogether. It is now stabilising at the "natural" level, where people join guilds based on which kind they want to be in, not which one gives the best loot. And most people prefer 10m by the looks of it.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpette View Post
    I get your point but - albeit not native english - I find your wording quite weird. First of all, it's a game, nothing is forced here. And if anything was forced, it was 25m in wrath. UNforcing something like that, aka taking away certain extra's/bonuses, I wouldn't call forcing. It's the way you look at it I suppose; they are just trying to even out the 2 raiding sizes now.

    Having a luxury and then that being taken away from you and having same as others I would personally not label as "I'm being forced to less"; I'd call it "I'm getting evened out and had the good deal and enjoyed it while it lasted".
    I don't care what word you use. To Google 'force' is defined as below.
    to compel, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something: to force a suspect to confess.
    25man raiders were most definitely 'compelled' to move to 10mans, since it offered the same rewards with lower effort (effort as in less required management, less drama, less recruiting issues, less network/computer issues etc). Even without lower effort, people would still move due to personal preference. This 'forces' some 25man guilds to disband due to a smaller recruitment pool, the numbers speak for themselves on that.

    Even if force is the wrong word, I am right in my point.
    Last edited by TheVadar; 2012-03-21 at 07:32 AM.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by TheVadar View Post
    Even if force is the wrong word, I am right in my point.
    "Forced", typically applies only if you have the 25 discontinued.

    But when you have a situation where lets say 10 people from a team you used to raid 25 together, leave to raid 10, your option is to find 10 people within few days or disband, or do 10s yourself. You have the option to do 25 you just dont have the team lol.

    Then lets asume that you re a "die hard 25 lover", you swap to a different 25. There you have the first quarter's thunderstruck effect. Guild gets affected from the lost subs, leader decides to go 10 tired from the endless recruiting requirements.
    You dont want that. You re the "die hard 25 man lover", and you don't give up!

    You go to another guild, that does 25s, and after a tormented tier 11 you re getting ready for firelands.
    Firelands, the brick wall and the tombstone of all those that wanted to raid 25 and were not Paragon.
    Your new guild enters the place and wipes their brains out.
    Some of the members get tired, it is also summer, and the officers say "lets swap to 10 till holiday season is out".
    Those in the 10 group went shocked.
    They breezed through the content, the same one that they were wiping before, so by the end of August, nobody wanted to return and to need a month or more just to repeat the progress they achieved in 10 during holidays.

    Again, you re a die hard 25 lover without a 25 man guild.
    This time, you look around in your server only to discover that 25 is no more, 25 is dead for your realm.
    Still full of courage and determination, you take the decision to migrate.
    Your tormented Cataclysm raiding past, full of breaks and without so much progress makes you less than the ideal candidate for all the top, remaining 25s in flourishing realms.

    Still there are some average guilds left here and there, striving for new members. You pay your migration fee and you jump into one of them leaving your server and whatever friends you had behind.
    You had your good moments during fireland nerfs, content was posible, kills, all of them besides ragnaros looked posible even in heroic. And then you ve got Dragon Soul.

    With Dragon Soul 25s got another blow, just to make sure that they will (eventually) die.
    Loot ratio went to 1/1 excactly
    Tier tokens in particular were more for a 10 man raider per person than for a 25 man raider.
    Legendary ratio was 2/1 for 25 while people are 2.5/1 for 25.
    Valors got equalized.

    At the same time, LFR got introduced making the less commited part of your raiding team to settle for LFR with his main and his 9 alts.
    Content wasnt even interesting, and again was harder for 25s in most encounters.

    Your 4rth 25 in a bit more than 12 months, collapsed.

    But you still have the choice to do 25s m8!
    Run LFR 25 every week on your main and your 9 alts, oh, and not to forget it!
    Don't forget to pay your sub!

    You re not forced?
    Why do we have to go through shit like that to carry on 25 while others that do 10s are having a blast with teams created in one reset?
    Why???

    Conclusion
    @Vadar you are right to your point. Let the trolls troll!

  7. #227
    Warchief Velthy's Avatar
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    Its not Blizzard's fault, its playerbase. People just dont want to raid 25mans anymore, and those who do, well they raid 25man, its not a problem.

    Signature made by my best friend Aryiana.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Velthy View Post
    Its not Blizzard's fault, its playerbase. People just dont want to raid 25mans anymore, and those who do, well they raid 25man, its not a problem.
    In my experience, that's not entirely true:

    People don't want to organize 25m raids anymore, because it's far more work than 10m.

    Without a powerful incentive to do 25m, not enough quality guildleaders and raidleaders want to take on that task.

    Which means a lot of people who prefer to raid 25m, get stuck in a 10m guild. And it makes us unhappy.

    (I like raiding 25m much more than 10m, but not enough to take on the task of setting up a good 25m guild.)

    ETA: There's actually a lot Blizzard could do to help, mainly by improving and expanding the guildmanagement-interface.
    Last edited by Taiphon; 2012-03-21 at 10:12 AM.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Skullcrack View Post
    It really isn't that simple. People don't just make their decisions based on raid size, that's incredibly simplistic and naive. They look at a variety of things. After working very hard and spending most of Cata trying to keep 25 man hc guild with a long history alive only to see it die, I find it funny when people with no clue tell me to "just get a group of people that want to do 25 mans". It shows complete ignorance of reality. And I wasn't the only one, my server had over ten solid 25-man guilds all the way from TBC to Cata, now there are none left even though officers in all of them worked very hard to keep them alive.
    25 mans are still running and in the top end of progression on my server. Getting ppl for them is rarely an issue, maybe I am just really lucky or you are not but I find it hard to believe thats it. For the most part the only 25 mans that have vanished that I have seen were bad ones, for them yes the new system is the kiss of death.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    25 mans are still running and in the top end of progression on my server. Getting ppl for them is rarely an issue, maybe I am just really lucky or you are not but I find it hard to believe thats it. For the most part the only 25 mans that have vanished that I have seen were bad ones, for them yes the new system is the kiss of death.
    I'm not talking about your limited little view of the world, I'm talking about the overall state of the game. A handful of high population servers have a healthy 25 man raiding population in EU. Rest of the servers are lucky to have one 25 man guild. My own medium population realm went from 10+ solid 25-man guilds all the way from TBC to start of Cata, to zero. Take a look around realm forums, you'll find that the majority have threads begging Blizzard for realm merges and complaining about the death of 25-man guilds.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post

    ... some points being made ...
    I tried reading your post by only reading the stuff in bold. It made no sense to me =|

  12. #232
    Blizzard didn't kill twenty-five man raiding, the player base did. We were given the choice and the majority went the ten man route. It's just how it went, I don't understand why everyone wants to point the finger at Blizzard. They finally gave us a fair shake at the same quality of gear regardless of your raid size and and the preference is pretty clear.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Kogoes View Post
    Blizzard didn't kill twenty-five man raiding, the player base did. We were given the choice and the majority went the ten man route. It's just how it went, I don't understand why everyone wants to point the finger at Blizzard. They finally gave us a fair shake at the same quality of gear regardless of your raid size and and the preference is pretty clear.
    It's the very predictable outcome of some very intentional changes. If 25m is dead, then Blizzard's design choices killed it. It's easy to say, "no, we didn't do it, the community did it," but the community was just responding to their decisions.

    This is an entirely separate discussion from whether 25m deserved to die, btw. Maybe they did. But you can't just pretend Blizzard had nothing to do with it.
    Last edited by rkma; 2012-03-21 at 02:19 PM.

  14. #234
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
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    Getting pretty tired of players blaming Blizzard for their own actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  15. #235
    Stupid idea, 25mans were alot more fun & entertaining than 10mans, why you digging your own grave blizzbra?

  16. #236
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorn View Post
    So we're after the press tour.I was looking forward to only one thing: Don't let 25 mans die.
    It seems like Blizzard doesn't have any plans to do that and things gonna stay as they are now.

    What does it mean?

    It means that 25 man guilds will be consequently,slowly dying.Even if you prefer doing 10 mans this is an issue,communities are gonna die,old guilds disbanding,old school players leaving.MoP looks very nice but really no point for me to play MoP if I have no 25 man guilds on my realm or only 1-2.
    Erm..what exactly gives you those ideas? it clearly states on the frontpage:

    Dungeons and Raids

    Blizzard would have liked to do a 15 man raid size if they were starting from scratch today. However, for now they are sticking with both 10 and 25 man.

    Blizzard will be revisiting the shared 10 and 25 man lockout to make sure it is still the right thing.

    I just don't get this doomsaying. If enough people care for 25 mans, those people will keep 25 man raids running and Blizzard will have no choice but to cater for it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  17. #237
    The Patient UnderworldSoup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archidamos View Post
    With Dragon Soul 25s got another blow, just to make sure that they will (eventually) die.
    Loot ratio went to 1/1 excactly
    Tier tokens in particular were more for a 10 man raider per person than for a 25 man raider.
    Legendary ratio was 2/1 for 25 while people are 2.5/1 for 25.
    Valors got equalized.
    Say it ain't so, they actually removed the game altering incentives to raid in 25m? What will you do now, gosh?

    The loot ratio has been silly since tier 11. When the (re)introduction of the shared loot table came into play in Firelands, 10m started getting a bit harder pressed to ever see those drops show up -- something that 25m didn't have to worry about. That's an incentive right there, disregarding the loot ratio being equalized, you guys still get a much bigger pick of the loot than we could ever see. My friend to this day has yet to see a Mandible of Beth'tilac drop in heroic, just like I could never get Nibelung off of Lady Deathwhisper in Icecrown Citadel due to two pieces of loot per boss. You guys get what, four plus tier right now?

    I have no sympathy for you regarding tier. My 10m heroic guild runs each week with three vanq users and we've gotten 4/5 vanq drops each week, despite the fact they've got off spec tier at this point. You guys get a bigger pick of that tier and are less likely to get such a block as that.

    The legendary acquisition ratio was already said to be much, much too high for Tarecgosa and wasn't properly balanced for how many could utilize the weapon. The daggers were, at the very least, isolated to a single class, but were still obtained relatively quickly. I can understand the desire to get it "faster" on 25m and heck I'd love to get legendaries faster too, but they need to gate it some other way to avoid one guild having half a dozen and another having two.

    Valors are obtainable in other methods. I enjoy playing the game so I queue for random dungeons or LFR even when I'm valor capped for the week - I'm getting my moneys worth out of my subscription and having a blast. It's not really an argument to say "well I don't have the time to do more than raid" and expect them to hand you the full cap.. they want you playing the game. What passionate game developer wouldn't want you playing their creation?

  18. #238
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himora View Post
    Stupid idea, 25mans were alot more fun & entertaining than 10mans, why you digging your own grave blizzbra?
    /sigh. That is exactly what i mean. If it is true that "25mans were alot more fun & entertaining", why the hell do you think there is a grave that is dug. If you are now doing 10 mans only, then your statement is already false. If something is "alot more fun & entertaining" then there should be no reason why people don't do it.

    It is a bloody game after all that is supposed to be "fun & entertaining"
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    Getting pretty tired of players blaming Blizzard for their own actions.
    Aren't we all tired...

  20. #240
    @UnderworldSoup


    So it is in your interest to defend what there is now, while it is in other people interest to ask for something different. From that aspect, we both have valid concerns regarding the future, with one difference.
    One supports what is right and just.
    And the other supports what will allow him to continue enjoying what he has today in the future.

    If blizzard reconsiders the shared locks, you will not have my sympathy either regarding the change in your situation

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