Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[Marken]

I honestly 15 man would be the destination ^^

[Talen]

Except you lose the whole "epic" feel if you go below 25 players. 40 would be perfect but we all know the chances of that are long gone.

"Epic" is in the ey of the beholder to a large degree, and my own feeling is that it is compromised more by the need to design raids for two sizes.

EJL

[Deleted]

I am in the progress of forming a 25 man raid right now... my first raiding experience was during Burning Crusade, where you quickly had to join a 25 man guild after having completed Karazhan, since it was 25 or nothing at that point. I stopped playing to the end of BC and came back in the late stages of Icecrown Citadel. Got myself a spot in a rather casual 10 man guild, then moved forward to a 25 man once again... since, once you've been done with 10 man content, 25 man was where it's at. I'm pretty happy with 10 and 25 man raiding being equal to some degree, it just made 25 man guilds obsolete. They had a monopoly of power in previous patches: "You come raid with us or you won't see all content!"

Now that's gone and casual raiding guilds are more likely to keep playing on their own... or guilds breaking up just quickly form a new raiding guild with the need to recruit one or two new members at most. Yes, these circumstances have made it very hard to establish or maintain a 25 man raid on some servers, since, depending on your raiding standard, you might simply not be able to find enough recruits with the desired skill level on your server.

We have now undertaken the step of transferring the server to a much more populated one. We're a huge step further towards establishing our 25 man raiding group and we're starting to attract interested players across server barriers already, even though we've just had one "successful" 25 man run to date. Other raiding groups and guilds interested in 25 man raiding started to cooperate with us and I'm very positive that any server with a healthy enough population can maintain a much bigger number of 25 man raids than can be seen today. It just needs people willing to form them. And that's much more of a struggle than in past expansions with Cataclysm.

[Talen]

It is obvious that we will not agree on this point.

A raid group is a group that is bigger than a party and is formed in a manner that allows it to handle the more complicated mechanics found within a raid instance of the appropriate level.

By definition, the two cannot be equated. A 10 man can handle everything a 5 man can. The reverse is not true.

There is no reason why the mechanics could not be simply altered. Why not tune it around a dpser doing the job of the second tank, for example?

Becuase the DPS doesn't have the toolkit, the gear or the knowledge. You cannot design an encounter on the hope that 1 of the DPS players can become a tank or healer at need. You can create such mechanics for a raid group but not for a party.

Thorim, for example? 2 dpsers in the gauntlet while 1 dpser, the healer and the tank stay in the arena.

And these DPSers will require no healing?

And we will also need to give them that 6% crit immunity so they can handle the tank switching role on some bosses?

And constrain their movements so that they always remain within healing distance of the single healer so no split encounters.

And we'd have to do without fights such as Dreamwalker or Vael.

And so on.

You can adjust a multi-tank/multi-healer fight on 10s and 25s and still have it remain a multi-tank/healer encounter. You cannot, however, adjust for a party without removing the multi-tank/healer mechanics.

And thats not even considering some of the other mechanics that the designers can't include because, with just 5 players, they can't be certain of a class good with a particular strategy. Those would be the easiest to work around perhaps, but also removes an element of skill.

EJL

[Deleted]

There are nine 8/8H guilds on Illidan. http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/us/il...ting.tier13_25

There are four on Mal'Ganis, four on Zul'jin, three on Kil'Jaeden, three on Blackrock etc.

On the EU Side, theres six on Ravencrest, five on Kazzak, five on Свежеватель Душ etc.

25 man guilds dying is a perception, and most of the people that say it is dying are stuck on server's that do not really have a raiding community.

I still dont know what we are talking about here, why is 25man dying? Im sure there is more 10man guilds who disband, than 25man guilds does

Because, with only 10players, just 1 raider who cant show up, the whole team is lacking. Lets say 2?
1main raider from the 10man team decide to QUIT, and it will affect the whole team hard.

Replaces? in a 10man guild? Who wants to be benched 4/5 raid days every week? (just numbers)

If some1 could explain to me where they get their facts that 25man is dying? Are we talking US only here? i got a few alts on several realms like EU Tarren Mill (Horde)

EU frostmane (ally) and my mains are on EU Auchindoun (ally) I see plenty of 25man realms. We only got like 3 8/8 HC guilds on 25man, and i dont know how many 10man guilds who got 8/8 HC.



"most of the people that say it is dying are stuck on server's that do not really have a raiding community" i gotta agree with this 1

[Tefink]

Say they do go back to 10 mans giving lower ilvl than 25 mans; how does raid finder fit into all of this? Do you really expect a 25 man raid to give a lower ilvl than a 10 man raid(really? I mean......really?)? If not, then what's the point of 10 mans if raid finder gives better ilvl? Or do you expect there to be a raid finder version for both 10 and 25? This would only extrapolate the problem that we have now with raid finder; making people do more work than they should have to if they want to remain competitive.

[Deleted]

Do you really expect a 25 man raid to give a lower ilvl than a 10 man raid(really? I mean......really?)?

IF they go back to the WotLK model then... yes. Why not? LFR is hardly even a "raid" compared to heroic modes. Even back when 10s were deliberately tuned lower than 25s they were still far harder than what LFR is designed to be.

But I doubt they'll go back to that. They already brought the game to a state where the vast majority of raiding guilds are 10m guilds for one reason or another, making this change would pull the rug out from under millions of people. For better or for worse they brought 10m to the top of the rewards ladder and there's no going back now.

[Gilian]

They won't. The entire concept works due to "equal reward for equal effort". 5 man parties won't get the same gear quality as a 10 man raid simply because the 10 man is more difficult and requires more work.



Well.....no. Actually Blizzard don't have to promote 25s. All they should be doing is exactly what they are doing now...providing the raid and letting those who want to run 25s do so. Theres an issue that the barrier for entry to 25s is much higher, but that barrier is scheduling, organisation and having fewer people actually forming 25 and Blizzard can and should at least attempt to address that.

But that doesn't require promotion. It requires streamlined raid communication tools, expanding the available recruiting pool and rewarding raid leaders appropriately for the effort they put in.




On a raid basis? 25s require more as there are more players. On an organisational basis? 25s require more. On a personal level? No....about the same IME.



Yes....but few people actually expected total, complete 100% perfect balance in all phases and aspects. Cherry picking specific encounters or even individual mechanics to prove Blizzard has failed in this regard does this argument no favors.



People had erratic schedules and couldn't commit to raiding.
Guilds could lose progress during vacation as players were away.
Guilds were continually having to resize to run 10s and 25s
Players were getting burnt out running the same content up to 4 times a week per player
Raid structure had to be built upon the concept that players did run such content that often which meant players HAD to in order to keep satisfactory progress
etc...

vs

All the above solved, or at least greatly mitigated
10 man format so popular, 25s have recruiting issues - mitigated by many 25 players moving to 10s.

The main problem with 25s is the difficulty with forming one. You have a limited selection of players who need to be available at the same time for the length of the raid run. And they have to be skilled and know the fight.



As opposed to QQing over 25s? As it is, yes...people did have an obligation to run 25s. Part of that was because people will go for the best they can get. Another was in the need to actually keep up with your own guild. Another is that Blizzard balanced gear acquisition around doing so.



It means they don't have to spend as much time in the game. An increasingly important consideration for many.



Yes, you probably could. However, that would also overlook the other issues the previous system caused.



If it was the only problem, then perhaps. It wasn't.

EJL

Either you don't understand the points I am making or you are just trying to talk around my arguments making this discussion only harder than it should be so people give up. I'm really not going to respond to all your reactions while you can't even bother to quote properly.

For example:

They won't. The entire concept works due to "equal reward for equal effort". 5 man parties won't get the same gear quality as a 10 man raid simply because the 10 man is more difficult and requires more work.

Wtf is this? OFCOURSE they won't. I was just making an example to show that people will just take the easy path and this has nothing to do with fun.

And 25 man is more difficult and requires more work so they won't make 10 mans with equal loot. Are you trying to make a point or what? Or are you just being stupid?

You should read the other comments I quoted more carefully before quoting me. I'm sick of explaining my comments over and over.

[Keoren]

Becuase the DPS doesn't have the toolkit, the gear or the knowledge. You cannot design an encounter on the hope that 1 of the DPS players can become a tank or healer at need. You can create such mechanics for a raid group but not for a party.

It could be tuned assuming the dpsers have to tank as dpsers, or that there would be no healer present, or whatever. Gear and knowledge are a part of the challenge and I think even saying an encounter can't be designed in some way because "DPS doesn't have the knowledge" is silly. Frankly, I also think it would be reasonable to expect a 5-man raid group to have someone who can off-heal.

In the case of a mechanic which can't be downgraded into a 5-man version, there is no reason why it couldn't be changed to fit for a smaller group.

And these DPSers will require no healing?

And we will also need to give them that 6% crit immunity so they can handle the tank switching role on some bosses?

And constrain their movements so that they always remain within healing distance of the single healer so no split encounters.

And we'd have to do without fights such as Dreamwalker or Vael.

And so on.

As I said before, if some mechanics couldn't be tuned down for a 5-man then there is no reason why the encounter could not be changed ever so slightly.
However, to address the examples you gave:

They would require healing where tuned so.

I don't think tank switching would necessarily be required to be implemented for 5-man raids, outside of few encounters. It's generally just a pointless aspect to force guilds into bringing more than one tank.

It can be assumed that on split encounters they wouldn't be in range of healing.

I don't see why not.

And thats not even considering some of the other mechanics that the designers can't include because, with just 5 players, they can't be certain of a class good with a particular strategy. Those would be the easiest to work around perhaps, but also removes an element of skill.

Class stacking can already make encounters much easier. No reason why it should be the reason to stop 5-man raids from happening.



EDIT: Instead of keeping on dragging this argument, I guess I can also finish this point by saying that I've been arguing about this just for the hell of it. Regardless, I see 5-man raids as a fun idea and since it is impossible to tune even two sizes to be completely equal, there isn't really much harm in throwing in a third possibility.

5-man guilds forming with a huge bench to rush to world firsts by using the best possible classes? Heck, I wouldn't even care - and the tuning of the encounters wouldn't even be such a great task if we'd do the same as is already being done today and would balance things around a much less than an ideal composition.

It would also actually be very possible to tune a 5-man encounter harder than a 10- or 25-man one.

[Deleted]

Either you don't understand the points I am making or you are just trying to talk around my arguments making this discussion only harder than it should be so people give up. I'm really not going to respond to all your reactions while you can't even bother to quote properly.

...Are you trying to make a point or what? Or are you just being stupid?

You should read the other comments I quoted more carefully before quoting me. I'm sick of explaining my comments over and over.

Welcome to the world of paradoxes.
The world that dumping down the game, the classes, the encounter design and mechanics to fit as many things as posible to 10s is acceptable but not for 5s.
The world that 10 can be equal to 25 (15 more people), but 5 CANNOT be equal to 10 (only 5 extra people).
The world that only combat difficulty matters when we talk about 10 and 25, but it doesnt matter when we talk about 5 and 10.
The world that dual tanking or dual healing is not allowed on 5 mans just to prove that 10 is elaborated, but when we talk about 3-4 tanks encounters being scrapped from 25s, and more elaborated and cooperative healing being scrapped by 25 mans to accomodate the 10s it doesnt matter.

The world that a system fails, with less subs, less content being designed, less amount of raiders, destruction of thousands of guilds, but IT SHOULD STAY THE SAME!!!

The world where logic gets an entirely new definition and textbooks should be rewritten on the matter!
The world of EJL....

[nekobaka]

Why were 10-mans implemented? Many people prefer them to 25-mans.

Having a big group to kill hard content used to be the intention before, yes, but it is much less restricted now with the sizes having bounced around for years. Why couldn't 5-man raids exist alongside 10- and 25-mans?

And it just makes me wonder why Challenge modes which are supposed to at least require players to challenge themselves and meet a metric are just being rewarded with non-power enhancing gear while players can run LFR which at least how DS shows is potentially easier than five mans for a number of players up to the point where players can bot or AFK and still be rewarded with more powerful gear. The effort to reward ratio model just doesnt hold true anymore by itself.

[Deleted]

By definition, the two cannot be equated. A 25 man can handle everything a 10 man can. The reverse is not true.

Fixed it for you. For the same arguments you are using.
For the lost mechanics in 25 encounters that there used to be but there are no more.
For all those that they saw their creations being destroyed by a flawed system.
For the people that quited the game, stopped raiding or lost their raiding spot because of that, while still people like you are arguing about things that became obvious even to blinds.

Becuase the DPS doesn't have the toolkit, the gear or the knowledge. You cannot design an encounter on the hope that 1 of the DPS players can become a tank or healer at need. You can create such mechanics for a raid group but not for a party.

Really? I was in an LFR the other day. Madness. The one tank afk, the other tank died after not getting healed before and after first impale.
An arms warrior swapped to sword an board in combat, tanked the adds, took all the impales when it was his turn, and because tank died again, and wouldnt get another raise, due to the slackers wouldnt ress the tank, arms warrior tanked both the adds on the final platform both times they spawned.
The group completed madness lfr with an arms warrior tanking everything from the begining till the end.

Also the entire Dragon Soul in 10 was designed with the 1 tank plus a second tank in few encounters philosophy (namely 3 in normals and 4 in heroics), and 2 healers plus a healer when needed (in 3 encounters out of 8). In one fight after nerfs especially (few did it without nerfs even!) Ultraxion heroic is solo healable
Halo? People are required to use their offspecs extensively in 10? The requirement for roles with "toolkit" (tanks/ healers :P) can be 3 or 4 or 5 depending on ecnounter?

Your arguments don't have "the toolkit" to convince a 5 year old child!

And these DPSers will require no healing?

And we will also need to give them that 6% crit immunity so they can handle the tank switching role on some bosses?

And constrain their movements so that they always remain within healing distance of the single healer so no split encounters.

And we'd have to do without fights such as Dreamwalker or Vael.

And so on.

We have to do without encounters like Maulgar and Vasj,
we have to do with pets inspiring heroism to raids,
we have to do with all classes interupting with the same cd,
healing with the same spells but with different names
Blessing of kings and Mark of the Wild, 2 signature buffs, doing the same thing!

Why not to dump down the game a bit more to accomodate all those that want to raid in really tight groups?
Why we have to force them to raid 10 when they don't have 9 relatives and friends playing the game but only 4?

You can adjust a multi-tank/multi-healer fight on 10s and 25s and still have it remain a multi-tank/healer encounter. You cannot, however, adjust for a party without removing the multi-tank/healer mechanics.

Multitanking and multihealing is posible in any combination of 5 people and above while still having at least one person just dpsing. In a 5 man you can have 2 tanks 2 healers and 1 dps. In fact Morchok heroic pre nerfs and before people obtained sufficient gear was including the seperation of the group in 2, one with each group having 2 dedicated healers (4 total). Some still do it like that.

In the bottom line?

Chose a side mr EJL.

Either in combat difficulty is the one that matters for ANY size or
Vastly different sizes make for a vastly different raiding experience, in combat and out!

Not 10 is the same with 25, but 5 is cannot be the same with 10 because it suits you!

[Talen]

Wtf is this? OFCOURSE they won't. I was just making an example to show that people will just take the easy path and this has nothing to do with fun.

So what if people take the "easy path"? So what? Its not a big deal if they do. Its not a disaster. Its not a catastrophe. Convenience is always going to be one of the factors people consider. And if it outweighs that little extra bit of fun they may get in a 25...then good for them. They made a choice. And they can live with it.

You and others keep saying this like this is a bad thing. Its not self evident why you think this. Can you explain why?

EJL

[Deleted]

I have to agree that if 10s and 25s can be made "even" then so can 5s and 10s. I use the "" because obviously no balance is ever perfect across the board but we all know that.

The only distinction I'd draw is that 5 mans are not "raids" by definition, a raid in MMO jargon is a group consisting of multiple parties just like a party is a group of multiple people. You can no more have a 5 man raid than you can have a 1 man party. Of course this is all just... vocabulary. Its kind of irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, we can just call everything "dungeons" and we'll be fine.

But more to the actual point, IF they decide to tune certain 5 man dungeons with the same level of difficulty as 10 and 25 dungeons then yes, those 5 mans should provide loot and achivs on part with their counterparts. After all the whole argument is about difficulty=reward, if we're stipulating that x is as hard as y and therefore they should have equal rewards then if z is the same difficulty then obviously z must have that same reward as well.

But I don't see that happening. You gotta draw the line somewhere, as Archidamos said there are certain mechanics that require too many people to create and having 5 player dungeons at the top tier level of tuning would restrict encounter design far too much imo.

We have to do without encounters like Vasj

Oh god *shudder*. One of my favorite fights of all time but if given a choice between having to do assignments and lead that raid all over again or running a much easier to organize (if a little less "epic feeling") raid I'd choose the 5/10/15m.

[Gunslinger]

... Becuase the DPS doesn't have the toolkit, the gear or the knowledge. You cannot design an encounter on the hope that 1 of the DPS players can become a tank or healer at need. You can create such mechanics for a raid group but not for a party. ...

Have you heard of Guild Wars 2? Among many that shy away from the strict healer-dps-tank trio check that one out. Here's a short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMFIXNuReYU&feature=fvsr

Also I think DPSers, or players who choose that role don't do it because they lack the knowledge but because that's their favorite spec/role. DPS is very involving and competitive in heroic raids. Even in 5mans in WoW you can see the LFDers that actually do damage compared to those that stagnate and you can get a grasp that only a small(er) part of the player-base can perform well as DPSers.

As for toolkits more and more classes have gathered defensive cooldowns. Just look now at the Warlocks in MoP beta with the new glyph that makes them pretty capable tanks at least for 5mans and early normal mode raids. Imo Blizz should break this static "holy trinity" that's been going on for so long and offer more to the players, but as things are right now it's going to be a looooong time before that happens. I'm still waiting for that graphic engine overhaul that's 5 years late...

Edit: On topic I think now that Blizz gave the choice to the players it was pretty obvious that the majority would tend to 10mans. This isn't because a it's a different difficulty but because you can form the group required faster and since it's smaller you can even have a friends-only raid compared to 25man where you have to get in a couple of odd-balls to get the numbers. Imo smaller is better in this case but I will remember those 25man raids fondly. I don't think they'll die out in MoP however unless something really drastic comes in and changes things (*caugh* better loot for larger raids *caugh*) I don't see the average player picking the 25man over the 10man.

[Jurwi]

Except you lose the whole "epic" feel if you go below 25 players. 40 would be perfect but we all know the chances of that are long gone.

Except I find 10 just as "epic" as 25. 40 feels just chaotic. Not "epic".

As an answer to the topic: Hopefully. I'd much rather see them only keep 10man raids and balance them properly, instead of trying to cater to the 25man raiders too.

[Deleted]

So what if people take the "easy path"? So what? Its not a big deal if they do. Its not a disaster. Its not a catastrophe. Convenience is always going to be one of the factors people consider. And if it outweighs that little extra bit of fun they may get in a 25...then good for them. They made a choice. And they can live with it.

I see ur still on this thread trying to convince everyone that 10 v 25 is the same lol

At least in this last comment ur admitting theyre different, and further admitting what we have been saying all along... people will always choose the easy route to a goal, in this case that means running 10man. And ofc that demonstrates loud and clear that 10man is easier.

You and others keep saying this like this is a bad thing. Its not self evident why you think this. Can you explain why?

Im happy to explain why...

REWARDS

Why should both raids get exactly the same rewards?

If one raid is demonstrably easier, why does it have the same rewards as the harder raid?

I refer to my original point... Blizzard must make 1 raid size in MoP. 2 raid sizes has been proven to destroy the raiding community rather than expand it.

[Talen]

It could be tuned assuming the dpsers have to tank as dpsers, or that there would be no healer present, or whatever

In short....get rid of the enhanced mechanics that make a raid a raid and not just a difficult dungeon.

Frankly, I also think it would be reasonable to expect a 5-man raid group to have someone who can off-heal.

I play a Paladin. If I'm in a 5 man group, I can expect there to be a tank, a healer and 2 other DPS. Lets say we get a rogue and a hunter.

That makes me the only chocie for an off tank, should one be needed and an off healer, should one be needed. If a mage had been selected instead of me, there'd be noone there for those roles. If a warrior had ben selected, there'd be no off healer candidate. With me there, the designers have to assume I either heal/tank in DPS gear with a DPs spec, or I have a second/third set of gear and don't mind respeccing. It also assumes I know how to heal or tank well enough to take the role and care to do so...both of which are unreasonable assumptions.

It is, in other words, not something that can be designed for given the limited pool available within a single party.

In the case of a mechanic which can't be downgraded into a 5-man version, there is no reason why it couldn't be changed to fit for a smaller group.

Which means you are designing a dungeon...and not a raid. Raids are formed from large groups precisely so they can handle the enhanced mechanics. You cannot take the enhanced mechanics that typify a raid and translate them into a dungeon...the samller group cannot handle it.

As I said..you can create a dungeon that is just as difficult as a raid instance. But it would still be a dungeon.

They would require healing where tuned so.

And what if that means no healers at all? You can't have one healer heal both in a split party encounter.

I don't think tank switching would necessarily be required to be implemented for 5-man raids, outside of few encounters. It's generally just a pointless aspect to force guilds into bringing more than one tank.

Its an enhanced mechanic typically found in raids. You may consider it worthless, but even if that were true, its still one of those mechnaics that build up to create a raid that isn't just a difficult dungeon.

This isn't a minor point. Raids are filled with enhanced mechanics that require a greater degree of skill and coordination over and above that found in dungeons. Simple difficulty of the counter is only part of the issue. But a raid is defined by those mechanics and how well the groups handle them. If you get rid of those mechanics simply so a 5 man can handle it, you are not only creating a totally different encounter that can't be compared with a 10/25 man raid - because the encounter would be different as opposed to simply retuned for a different group size - but you are simply creating a standard dungeon without any need for the enhanced mechanics that define a raid.

You can't just hadwave them away and say they don't matter. They do.

It can be assumed that on split encounters they wouldn't be in range of healing.

So, in a split party situation, the healer can sit back and do nothing? After all, his healing isn't needed.

Class stacking can already make encounters much easier. No reason why it should be the reason to stop 5-man raids from happening.

Not what I'm talking about.

It would also actually be very possible to tune a 5-man encounter harder than a 10- or 25-man one.

Yes. And it'd STILL be a dungeon run.

The world that dumping down the game, the classes, the encounter design and mechanics to fit as many things as posible to 10s is acceptable but not for 5s.

5s cannot, by definition, handle the mechanics that can be found within a riad. There is simply no way for them to do so. You can adjust a 25 to a 10 and vice versa....but a single party simply cannot, under any circumstances, handle the mechanics that a raid allows.

You CAN make a 5 man dungeon as difficult, or even more difficult, than a raid. But that isn't the issue. Is it? Raid groups allow for a greater degree of freedom with encounters mechanics and design, and it is that which defines a raid. Not its difficulty. The difficulty simply provides a benchamark for loot quality. But a you have a raid which, by design, cannot incldue any of the enhanced mechanics or design features a raid is expected to have?

No.

5 man groups allow for a greater degree in mechanic than soloing....you can create encounters that a solo player cannot ever hope to defeat at the appropriate level.
Raids do the same with regard to parties. They allow for a greater selection of encounter mechanics that a simple party cannot hope to defeat at the appropriate level.

Fixed it for you. For the same arguments you are using.

If only your argument had any merit.

There are no mechanics in 25s that cannot be adjusted for a 10. You can take a multi tank encounter and still have a multi tank encounter. With 5s, you'll need to take a multi tank encounter down to a single tank encounter. No more mechanics based around multiple tanks or healers.

Really? I was in an LFR the other day. Madness. The one tank afk, the other tank died after not getting healed before and after first impale.
An arms warrior swapped to sword an board in combat, tanked the adds, took all the impales when it was his turn, and because tank died again, and wouldnt get another raise, due to the slackers wouldnt ress the tank, arms warrior tanked both the adds on the final platform both times they spawned.
The group completed madness lfr with an arms warrior tanking everything from the begining till the end.

And if he'd tried it in normal, he'd be dead. And if he'd tried it without that primary tank...he'd likely be dead. And if he'd tried it not on Yseras platform, he'd likely be dead. And if he'd shown up like that in a tank role, he'd be kicked. Or it could just be he outgeared the instance. I see a fair amount of 403 players in players

You also miss the point about the mechanics possible in a riad vs those possible in a dungeon.

Why not to dump down the game a bit more to accomodate all those that want to raid in really tight groups?

You want a dungeon run, nothings stopping you queueing for HoT.

Why we have to force them to raid 10 when they don't have 9 relatives and friends playing the game but only 4?

Because then they have the option of a 5 man dungeon run. If the 5 man run was the same difficulty as the raid, then they should expect the same loot quality. If its harder, they should expect better. But that doesn't make a 5 man a raid just as a tough solo quest line doesn't make 1 player a party.

Multitanking and multihealing is posible in any combination of 5 people and above while still having at least one person just dpsing. In a 5 man you can have 2 tanks 2 healers and 1 dps.

Yes. But you don't. WOW parties aren't built like that.

Either in combat difficulty is the one that matters for ANY size

WRT loot quality? Yes.

Vastly different sizes make for a vastly different raiding experience, in combat and out!

No. However, they do make for a difference between raids and dungeons.

You see, the multiple group aspect of raids makes possible certain mechanics that a single group aspect cannot.

I'm surprised you can't see this. You seem like a knowledgeable fellow but you seem overly fixated on the concept that diffuclty defines a raid setting. It doesn't.

At least in this last comment ur admitting theyre different,

I've always said there is a difference. I've also always said that the difference isn't great enough to really worry about.

people will always choose the easy route to a goal, in this case that means running 10man.

Likewise, I've also always stated that convenience was one of the factors that causde peopel to chosoe 10s. The only one? No. Nor do I think it matters.

And ofc that demonstrates loud and clear that 10man is easier.

No, it doesn't. It means there is a difference, but how that translates into "10s are easier" is beyond me.

REWARDS

Why should both raids get exactly the same rewards?

If one raid is demonstrably easier, why does it have the same rewards as the harder raid?[/quote]

Heres the big newsflash....

Having 10s be more conveneint is some ways does notmean that the raid itself is easier.

Convenience is not a measure of raid difficulty. Its a measure of accessibility. More 10s forming simply means I don't have to wait as long to get into a raid. It is more convenient for me to do so as I end up facing content of the same difficulty and getting the same rewards..

EJL

[Deleted]

you cant have a multitank encounter with a 5 man group and here i just read on mmo-champion of a group that 3 manned chogall and also the rest of that instance hmm.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-gall-3-manned

[atroxes]

The path of least resistance.

25-man raiding guilds will eventually split up and convert into smaller 10-man raiding guilds, simply because it is simpler to maintain a raiding roster that can raid 10-player together consistently. Less people, less drama, less organization, ie. less resistance.

Remove the 10-man path. Then the path of least resistance will by rule of elimination be 25-man raiding.

Having 2 paths, will naturally divide people. That's the whole point of having 2 paths. I don't think dividing the raiding community is a good idea and it really has proven not to be over the last 18 months. Having a raiding community with 2 groups of people with 2 vastly different skillsets is a horrible idea. You're grooming 10-man raiders to focus more on the individual. Many argue that 10-mans are better because individuality is celebrated and made critical. Each player has 10% of the responsibility in battle and while this might seem great for the individual, it also teaches the player not to think of the bigger picture and to focus more on his or her own task, because that single task plays such a big role to the 10-man raid.

Taking that player and putting him or her into a 25-man raid, will negatively affect the raid. The mindset of a player focusing on individual performance has no place in a large 25-man raiding group. The individual is made less important and that leaves room for each player to focus on the group and less on the self.