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  1. #61
    Mechagnome Deathray's Avatar
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    Make a 25 guild get 5 people, and make 3 raid groups? =D

  2. #62
    Depends on what perspective you're looking at this from. 25s "died" as a source of alt raids and pugs in Cata for the most part and I think that will be the same. Hardcore 25-man (and even to some extent casual 25-man) raiding is still very apparent, however, and is considered by many to be the pinnacle of raiding. I don't think we'll be seeing any of that go away.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Skullcrack View Post
    It's too late to save 25 man raiding now. Most servers are lucky to have one 25 man guild left, and the people who built and ran those guilds are gone. I highly doubt there's anything Blizzard can do to bring back those people who had to watch all their effort go to waste as Blizzard let their 25 man guilds die.
    LOL Blizz let it die? What a saying... So if most person that raided decide to move on from the game its blizz fault? I just don't get it, aren't people allowed to quit or move on anymore with the blame going back to the dev's or company..

    Gee, the is another World outside of WoW you know and maybe thse person are just seeing the light or want to try something new..

    LFR will become the NEW LRD, there will still be 25/10 mans for the guild that wants to do them. BUt when you got 60-70% of the raiding population running LFR, all that left to do is tweak LFR and let 25/10mans stay... Blizz sure don't want to hurt the guilds that run those and they sure don't want those that didn't raid before but are now raiding with LFR to stop raid..

  4. #64
    The problem is the talent pool on medium and low pop realms is just terrible. Outside of the top guild on a mid/low population realm, there is a huge disparity in the level of play. If you have a consistent 10-12 people you can do a 10 man and progress reasonably well. However, you need a consistent 27-35 people to raid 25's.

    With 10's being easier (if you don't believe me watch a video of heroic spine on 10 and one on 25) and the rewards being the same, there is no incentive to beat your head against the wall recruiting mostly bad players on a realm that only has about 50 people capable of killing anything but HC Morchok and Ultraxion.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan2later View Post
    You are looking at numbers for the content with a 30 percent buff. That was farmed for A YEAR.
    Yes and you say DS is easier so how does that not compare? About 11,500 25man GUILDS (not gdkp pugs) cleared 25man normal Lich King.. only 3,000 25man guilds have cleared 25man normal Madness.

    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan2later View Post
    That was being cleared by server GDKP pugs.
    If these GDKP pugs were all people in the same guild ok.. if not, you are wrong. Guild progression sites don't track pugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan2later View Post
    You are looking at easier content. Sure it's easier to clear things on ten, that coupled with the content being less friendly to carry bads, more people opted for ten mans.
    Then compare 25man heroic LK vs 25man heroic Madness in a few months along with 10man heroic LK vs 10man heroic madness in a few months. Also you are still comparing 25 vs 10 when I am comparing (25 vs 10) vs (25 vs 10). If it makes it easier for you, try comparing (25 vs 25) vs (10 vs 10). The comparison is bigger than simply the LK vs Madness encounter. It sums up the entire tier seeing as how you have to clear the tier to get to that point. It also, on a smaller scale, compares the entire expansion as the number of guilds that formed, established themselves, progressed through and cleared ONLY the last tier of content will be insignificant compared to the number of guilds that have maintained their raiding status all expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by smeegoan2later View Post
    My points are only that 25 raiding is thriving, as long as you aren't on a dead shitty server.
    And those points are wrong. Again, if you look beyond just a few servers and look at the numbers available for the entire game you will agree.

    What you are doing would be the same as if I told the entire player base that Halaa PVP is not dead throughout the entire game just because people on one server still do Halaa PVP once a week. 25s thriving on a few servers has nothing to do with 25s being dead or alive. The servers you're referring to where 25man is thriving, those are the exceptions, not the standard.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-19 at 02:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hey Zeus View Post
    you can still raid 25s. i do. 25 mans arent dead. and if/when they are dead, blizzard isnt responsible. the players are.
    You're ignoring the #s which indicate they are dying and blaming the 25man raiders if it does.. 25man raiders being the only ones keeping it alive..

    If it gets worse and not better it is 100% blizzards fault for giving 10s a higher return on investment.
    armory - wowheroes - wowprogress
    Are you looking for a 25man raiding guild? We raid on US - Thunderhorn from 8-11 server time Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights. Check us out at http://www.twilight-alliance.com

  6. #66
    They arent dying because of Blizzard, they are dying because deep down, even the most hardcore raiders cba with them.

    What you need to accept is that 25 man raiding is flawed the entire idea of raiding infact is flawed. People do it to get better loot

    Which is exactly what you would recommend isent it? Make 25 mans give better loot so people are forced into it again?

    Look at that statement above, is there a single word that sticks out like a sore thumb?

    Is there?

    How about "forced", forcing players to do things by litterally buying them signals to me that raiding as a whole is just something we do for loot, not so much for fun.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelleria View Post
    The problem is the talent pool on medium and low pop realms is just terrible.
    Yes sir, this is also a huge part of the issue. For example, my guild has to put up with me! When you're stuck with me you know times are tough.
    armory - wowheroes - wowprogress
    Are you looking for a 25man raiding guild? We raid on US - Thunderhorn from 8-11 server time Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights. Check us out at http://www.twilight-alliance.com

  8. #68
    347 25m guilds have done H Madness, 8,675 actual players.
    925 10m guilds have done H Madness, 9,250 actual players.

    That's actually fairly close, moreso than I thought it would be. The percentages are different, but that's too be expected due to just more 10 man guilds this patch.


    I'd still rather a choice in raid size compared to the set sizes per tier that Rift has.

  9. #69
    When for every tier on your server the number of 25 is reduced by 50-75% down to 2 now 25s are dying.
    I've had a lot of conversations with people and they say, i want the purples and i want to raid.
    At the moment you get the same purples in 10s and ou dont have to swap in 10s you've got 12-14people in you're 10man raidteam vs. 35-37 in your 25 man. So a lot of times you have to swap or pass in 25s. And you need those 35-37 because people sometimes don't show up or say in advance sry got reallife commitments that evening.

    So did blizzard make 25s die they haven't announced it yet but its like throwing people out of an airplane ripping of their parachute telling them you'll be fine.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Into View Post
    They arent dying because of Blizzard, they are dying because deep down, even the most hardcore raiders cba with them.
    Not sure what cba means but they are definitely dying because of Blizzard. The numbers that I have provided earlier indicate it is directly due to the changes they made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Into View Post
    What you need to accept is that 25 man raiding is flawed the entire idea of raiding infact is flawed. People do it to get better loot

    Which is exactly what you would recommend isent it? Make 25 mans give better loot so people are forced into it again?
    No sir. I would recommend that Blizzard separates the achievements again. I don't care what gear another player is wearing. I am fine if you get the same itemlevel gear that I get when you kill Madness on 10man and I kill it on 25man. All I want is for my achievement to specify that I did it on 25man and for yours to specify that you did it on 10man. This won't hurt anyone and it will give 25mans enough of an incentive to stay afloat.
    armory - wowheroes - wowprogress
    Are you looking for a 25man raiding guild? We raid on US - Thunderhorn from 8-11 server time Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights. Check us out at http://www.twilight-alliance.com

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Buck-Shot View Post
    LOL Blizz let it die? What a saying... So if most person that raided decide to move on from the game its blizz fault? I just don't get it, aren't people allowed to quit or move on anymore with the blame going back to the dev's or company..
    Of course it's Blizzard's fault. Who else's would it be? They're failing to provide a product that would keep people interested. And given that they charge for xpacs almost yearly on top of a monthly fee, there's no excuse.

  12. #72
    Fangless, look how many have kill H morchok and compare...

    2759 guilds have kill H Morchok 25 or 68975 people.
    26811 guilds have killed H Morchok 10 or 268110 people.

    That's almost a 4:1 ratio of 10 -25.

    Now let's look at regular DW:
    3001 guilds have killed reg madness 25 or 75025 people.
    32999 guilds have killed reg madness 10 or 329990 people.

    4.4:1 ratio... As you go further in the ratio gets even bigger.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    If you go by the number of players, more people have done 25 than 10 in Cataclysm compared to Wrath. That's somewhat interesting.

    25 man guild = 2.5 more people :P
    No sir.. When comparing the actual raiders.....

    11,500 25man guilds killed normal LK that's 287,500 people who saw normal LK die.

    50,000 10man guilds killed normal LK that's 500,000 people who saw LK die.

    3,000 25man guilds killed normal madness that's 75,000 people who saw Deathwing die.

    33,000 10man guilds killed normal madness that's 330,000 people who saw Deathwing die.


    So...
    for 25mans from LK to Deathwing the numbers dropped from 287,500 to 75,000. That's a difference of 212, 500.

    for 10mans from LK to Deathwing the numbers dropped from 500,000 to 330,000. That's a difference of 170,000.


    25s have 212,500 less people killing Deathwing that killed LK.
    10s have 170,000 less people killing Deathwing that killed LK.

    Therefor, 25s suffered a greater loss and you are incorrect that "more people have done 25 than 10 in cata" because as you can see from the numbers 330,000 people have done 10 and only 75,000 have done 25 in Cata.

    armory - wowheroes - wowprogress
    Are you looking for a 25man raiding guild? We raid on US - Thunderhorn from 8-11 server time Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights. Check us out at http://www.twilight-alliance.com

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Judson View Post
    What I would really like to know is what would it hurt to separate achievements?

    If you are a 10man raider can you tell me if it would bother you if your achievement specified that you did it on 10man and mine specified that I did it on 25man?
    That is also interesting for me.It would not make ppl doing 10 mans feel worse,it would not favor 25 man.

    People want to be appreciated and I also want other ppl to know that I did this content on 25 man not 10 man and that is also a great advertisement for my guild = ppl applying = guild not dying.

  15. #75
    Blizz doesn't make you run 10 man over 25 man you got the choice the size you want to raid. If your guild decide to run 10 man instead of 25 then move to a 25 man raid guild or start your own guild and see how hard it is to run a 25 man raid.

    I had to do 25 man in LK because 95% of BiS was coming from it and i never like 25 man raid. Alot people that was doing 25 man back then it was for the same reason. Now that 10 man are the same loot now we don't have to run 25 man anymore. Why should i run 25 man because 1% of the wow raiding community say so. People are saying Blizz force them to run 10 man in Cata well then Blizz force me to run 25 man in LK. I got 4 word for you Payback is a b***

  16. #76
    It comes down to....well a single person is smart, but people as a whole are not. They will follow the pack and do whats easiest.Which right now is 10man raiding.

    There is still some (myself included) that dont even consider 10manning a raid to even have a point, that i just flat out refuse to do it. Theres VERY VERY few things that i would quit this game over, and not having large 25+man raiding is one of them.

    There is exactly 2 25man guilds left on our server, and about a hundred million 10mans. I can accept they drop the same loot i guess, even with the increased difficulty of running a 25man raid. But they really need to keep both running with benefits to running them.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by ccwizard View Post
    Blizz doesn't make you run 10 man over 25 man you got the choice the size you want to raid. If your guild decide to run 10 man instead of 25 then move to a 25 man raid guild or start your own guild and see how hard it is to run a 25 man raid.

    I had to do 25 man in LK because 95% of BiS was coming from it and i never like 25 man raid. Alot people that was doing 25 man back then it was for the same reason. Now that 10 man are the same loot now we don't have to run 25 man anymore. Why should i run 25 man because 1% of the wow raiding community say so. People are saying Blizz force them to run 10 man in Cata well then Blizz force me to run 25 man in LK. I got 4 word for you Payback is a b***
    Nobody was forcing you to do 25 man raids back then claiming otherwise is retarded. You did because you wanted the gear just as nobody is keeping up now their 25 man raids because no one wants to work double shifts in comparison to his colleague for the same wage.

  18. #78
    Last I checked, world progression was still measured by 25-man raiding.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerAttorney View Post
    Last I checked, world progression was still measured by 25-man raiding.
    Your point being? This is hardly the thread about what format dominates the world ranking. Its about the format of the more standard raider and the difficulty of one of tthe two too have any incentives at all to attract people to it its like having to choose between scarlett johansson and rosie o'donnell.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by MonsieuRoberts View Post
    I didn't know that not adding direct incentive means that a form of gameplay dies.

    There is no direct incentive to do the Ironman Challenge, and yet characters achieve level 85 with nothing but greys.
    There is no direct incentive to attain Transmogrification gear, and yet Transmogrification lives.
    There is no direct incentive to gank people, and yet World PvP, while not as grand as it once was, still exists.
    There is no direct incentive to participate in Roleplay, and yet people craft intricate and detailed stories and adventures.
    There is no direct incentive to learn about the lore, and yet WoWwiki & WoWhead are among some of the most visited World of Warcraft domains.

    There is no direct incentive for many things that players actively take part in, and yet much of the game is alive. It's because they enjoy it.

    Blizzard doesn't have to shove bonuses and prestiege into every parameter of the game in order for it to be relevant and enjoyable, "alive."

    It is a different story deciding something for yourself and a different story
    1) finding 24 other like minded people (that like 25 over 10) and
    2) your timeschedule fits and
    3) They don't mind settling for less progress and
    4) They don't mind the less loot that comes with less progress.

    Nice try, i wish people stop thinking as individuals for team activities!

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