Blizzard will let 25 mans die?

[Deleted]

No, they aren't. They're falling apart as soon as the players realise the amount of work they need to do. The players aren't willing to put in the work needed to form and maintain a 25m raid group. And if they can't or won't do it...why should Blizzard channel them into that role?

Yes they are, just look at the official recruitment forums and see. They're falling apart because they can't recruit no matter how much work they do, they're not getting the numbers to do 25 mans in the first place to be able to be put off by the work. Even long-established successful guilds can't recruit let alone ones that were formed last week no matter how high their aspirations. I don't know whether it's because the majority of players genuinely prefer 10 mans for whatever reason or if there are a lot of people like me who are settling for them because they don't want to risk moving to a guild that could disband or downsize as soon as they get there leaving them with nothing.

[muto]

Blizzard should bring back what made this game good.

1. Bring back seperate raid lockouts.
2. Better loot in 25 Man.
3. Distinct achievements and titles.

1 and 3 I agree with, but number 2 is iffy. When I was raiding Ulduar there was a BiS Holy Priest trinket from Kologarn, Spark of Hope. I do agree with you though for the most part though, except there should be BiS slot loot from both so people would be encouraged to do both.

[Deleted]

One thing that I don't see mentioned is that 10 man also offers a greater flexibility for many people who wouldn't otherwise be able to raid, you can raid at midnight or saturday morning or something, this would be virtually impossible with 25 man. As long as the rewards are the same its fairly easy to find competent players on odd hours. as soon as 25 man gets more and better loot, this just wouldn't work anymore since 99+% of people raid for gear and epeen.

But anyway I very much doubt Blizzard will promote 25 at the expense of 10 man again, since I can't see it result in anything but a decrease in subscriptions.

[akris15]

But anyway I very much doubt Blizzard will promote 25 at the expense of 10 man again, since I can't see it result in anything but a decrease in subscriptions.

Actually its the opposite, since T12 (when 10 mans started to become the "prefered" raid model as some would call it) the raiding population has dramatically started to fall. Look at the amount of guild completions from T11 in both modes and look at the correlation of overall sub numbers, raiding population kills and guild competition ratios between 10 and 25.

Either way the only reason 10s are "prefered" right now is they are much lowered tuned, easier to manage, easier to form compared to their 25 counterparts anyways. Not only the dps check is lower but the "skill" check will always be in favor due to the nature of probability (ie the Ultraxion Fading Light probability tables which should have been taken into consideration but wasn't which is why this fight was the most unbalanced encounter between 10 and 25 in Cata). The main counter point to 10s being harder is that 1 death is usally a wipe but in most progression fights a death in 25 is just as harsh due to the nature of enrage timers. The only thing that is hard about 10s in T12/T13 was getting the right composition to balance the dps.

Yet this under tuning was needed sadly because in T11 they were tuned nearly identical to their 25 counterparts and due to the nature of buffs it was harder for 10s. So in T12 the tuning of 10s had to be lower. This lead to a new issue of the 1 tank/2 healing which at any point a tank or healer can be dropped vastly changed the dps requirement to trivialized the enrage (I don't see this being an issue from here on Blizzard has been burned many times because of this concept and I think they will take it into consideration from here on out). Yet in Firelands showed that any mechanical fight (ie Beth) would be easier on 25 whereas any dps race (Baleroc) 10s have the advantange.

Which is why we see 10s vastly outperforming 25s in Dragon Soul, because 6 out of the 8 fights are basically a DPS race (Morchok and Hagara were technically not DPS races). Morchok was a joke for both so we can't really consider him but Hagara was harder for 10s (which Hagara being hard was a bit of an overstatement while it was easier on 25 its still not that hard on either mode) because it was mechanical based. The only other fight that was considered harder for 10 was Gunship because while it was a DPS race it was more mechanical in nature for 10s during the first Phase than 25. For 10s if you can make it through the first phase you were set but getting to the cow was the hard part for most 10 man guilds. The only DPS fight that was harder for 10s than 25s was Madness but as someone who done both 10s and 25s during current content I can agree that the 10 man version of Madness was badly over tuned (only need 2 healers 80% of the time but the final platform hits like a truck so there is atleast 1 point where an extra healer is worthless but will strain your healers past yellow if you go with 2).

Therefore the general community would see that 10s are easier and why many people jumped ship from their 25s to 10s for this tier because 10s did have the advantage this tier but that was only because of bad raid design. There are many people I know who left 25s to 10s just because of this perception of being easier but they are basing their opinion on 2 Tiers were DPS races were more prevalent than actual mechanical fights (ie T11). Still I am hoping we don't have this discussion in MOP and honestly I have a feeling we wont have too. The balancing between 10 and 25 will now be much tighter because they will have the assumption of having all buffs. I think Blizzard is also taking into the consideration of the probability of sole raider success in their respective groups (this theory will be tested on the Unbalancing Strike mechanic with the Will of the Emperor event in raiding T14). It looks like Blizzard for T14 at least is trying to go back to fights more based on personal success and mechanical in nature than raw dps. Finally I think Blizzard learned that 10s have to have 2 tanks and 3 healers at all times to keep DPS checks in line.

Due to this I am optimistic we wont have the issue of 10s being that much easier and scaring everyone away from 25s like what was seen in T13. Dragon Soul was a badly designed raid, we can all agree with that. At least most people who quit cata will most likely come back and see what MOP has to offer so Blizzard gets kinda a clean slate. We also need to remember that this is the first time Blizzard worked with balancing 2 raid sizes as equals. Sadly most of the community thinks this is a farce but at least they are trying to make them equal and to prevent something similar like the imbalances between 10s and 25s due to the nature of dps races and mechanics. Therefore if it is nearly balanced I can see 25s somewhat making a comeback but I think the damage is done due and it will be slow for the standard raider to go back to a 25 worried that it might die.

Just my personal opinion but I don't see why we can't have a 25 heroic lockout and a 10 heroic lockout per week. While there is the 2 arguments that needed to be addressed 1. You will need to run both for loot to stay competitive 2. 25s naturally have the advantage over 10s I personally think are both are not as bad as people are making them out to be. For the first argument is actually more of the concern because we saw this happening with LFR that got most guilds banned but still I believe gear =/= skill, if you want server first you need to have more than just gear to get the win. The second argument is kinda funny because 25s went out of their way to build a 25 but a 10 cant go out of their way to build a 25 man pug? I think restricting play is a bad idea to begin with an one of the reason I think for the lack of success in Cata. If they offer split lockouts there is nothing stopping a 10 from doing a 25, I mean the 25s went out of their way to make a 25 so nothing is stopping the guilds from pugging with others or having their Team B join. Just my 2 cents.

[Deleted]

One thing that I don't see mentioned is that 10 man also offers a greater flexibility for many people who wouldn't otherwise be able to raid, you can raid at midnight or saturday morning or something, this would be virtually impossible with 25 man. As long as the rewards are the same its fairly easy to find competent players on odd hours. as soon as 25 man gets more and better loot, this just wouldn't work anymore since 99+% of people raid for gear and epeen.

But anyway I very much doubt Blizzard will promote 25 at the expense of 10 man again, since I can't see it result in anything but a decrease in subscriptions.

I thought it was easier to get into 25-man raids. Most guilds ran 10-man with their core group in wotlk and pugged missing people for the 25-man. So if you didn't have time to follow the 10-man raiding hours you could most likely end up in some guilds 25-man group almost every week.

[Deleted]

My current favorites are the people who think that because a raid is harder to organize and put together it should therefore reward the individual raiders more. My only response to this is the following. My main resides on a fairly dead day 1 server and the amount of work required to put together a guild of 30 or 15 skilled players would be 10-20 times that of someone trying to do the same thing on say US-Illidan or US-Mal'Ganis or any of the other top 50 or so servers. Simple inference from the beliefs of this group would be then that raids run from our little server should get more rewards than raids that are run from the servers where forming and managing the same group would be easier. I think most people would recognize this premise as ridiculous and yet those same people are stating the same thing about raid sizes with straight (or enraged depending on the poster) faces.

You're right, so LFR, normal and heroic modes should all drop the same iLvl loot too!

As you say, it's ridiculous to base rewards on the amount of work required.

[Talen]

Just my personal opinion but I don't see why we can't have a 25 heroic lockout and a 10 heroic lockout per week. While there is the 2 arguments that needed to be addressed 1. You will need to run both for loot to stay competitive 2. 25s naturally have the advantage over 10s I personally think are both are not as bad as people are making them out to be.

Few, if any, of those who advocate for the shared lockout thinks the issues raised are a major problem.

For the first argument is actually more of the concern because we saw this happening with LFR that got most guilds banned but still I believe gear =/= skill, if you want server first you need to have more than just gear to get the win.

Which doesn't address the problem at all.....the issue is that players WILL run both. As a result, they will gear up faster. So...either Blizzard adjusts the drop rate to maintain an acceptable level of gear acqisition......which messes with players who don't run both every week....or they adjust the encounter difficulty to adjust for the quicker gear ups....which messes with the players who don't run both every week. By limiting the lockout they address this issue while also addressing the potential for abusing the loot rules that can exist.

Your second argument is also wrong. Kinda. It is, in many ways, easier for a 25 to downscale to a 10 but you will likely have to bench some players or recruit PuGgers to fill out various slots. Guild drama arises over who gets to be the"A" Team.

The main issue with the lockout system was that it gave raiders a fair amount of free time back but the game didn't provide anything to fill it with; a problemthat also affected non-raiders.

EJL

[RollTide]

All that's happened is bad guilds have been weeded out. Well run 25's will continue to exist. Well run guilds are still capable of recruiting just fine. Poorly run guilds are the ones who have fallen apart or can't recruit. Complaining that "People worry about joining a 25m that will just downsize or fall apart" is just a sign that people jump into whatever guild will take them. If you do some homework, get an idea of how the guild is run and then join you won't have to worry about it. And as I've said before, as long as 25m is where progression raiding is, there will still be guilds running it.

[Deleted]

All that's happened is bad guilds have been weeded out. Well run 25's will continue to exist. Well run guilds are still capable of recruiting just fine. Poorly run guilds are the ones who have fallen apart or can't recruit. Complaining that "People worry about joining a 25m that will just downsize or fall apart" is just a sign that people jump into whatever guild will take them. If you do some homework, get an idea of how the guild is run and then join you won't have to worry about it. And as I've said before, as long as 25m is where progression raiding is, there will still be guilds running it.

"Starting from Mists of Pandaria expansion, ##### will be raiding as a 10 man guild.
Following the changes within the game regarding hardcore raiding or how 10 and 25 man differ, we felt this was the best path to take, in order to keep ##### alive and running."


That is the verdict that better players than you reached.
I don't know what is worse, 10 man defenders, or arrogant members of the remaining 25s, that come here littering the forums with their epeen?

[Deleted]

We also need to remember that this is the first time Blizzard worked with balancing 2 raid sizes as equals. Sadly most of the community thinks this is a farce but at least they are trying to make them equal and to prevent something similar like the imbalances between 10s and 25s due to the nature of dps races and mechanics.

Correct, most of the raiding community see Cata raiding as a farce... and do u really think there is such a utopian ideal as 'balance'?

Come on dude, it always has been and always will be impossible... 1 raid size is the only way to fix this mess. That way we will never see the word 'balance' on the raiding forums ever again... good riddance to the word 'balance' is what i say! :P

Therefore if it is nearly balanced I can see 25s somewhat making a comeback but I think the damage is done due and it will be slow for the standard raider to go back to a 25 worried that it might die.

The term 'nearly balanced' made me lol

Gamers will always choose the easiest route to a goal and as long as 10s has even the tiniest of advantages it will remain the raid format of choice... at the expense of the almost dead 25s.

Your second argument is also wrong. Kinda. It is, in many ways, easier for a 25 to downscale to a 10 but you will likely have to bench some players or recruit PuGgers to fill out various slots. Guild drama arises over who gets to be the"A" Team.

I see u prove yet again that ur clueless of how large guilds operate... i guess your casual 10mans doesnt see what really happens in organised guilds right?

I can assure u that any 25man raiding guild has a sackful of alts so your nonsense logic that 25 divided by 10 is 2.5 and therefore means 5 players must employ puggers is total and utter garbage. 25man guilds will probably run 3 or even 4 10man runs if they needed to...

The main issue with the lockout system was that it gave raiders a fair amount of free time back but the game didn't provide anything to fill it with; a problemthat also affected non-raiders.

EJL

'gave raiders a fair amount of free time back'

And yet again u bring up the MYTH that players were 'forced' to run both 10 and 25man raids back in Wrath, and continue to use that as a false reason why Blizzard changed it to 1 lockout. That NEVER happened.

Hardly any 25man guild also ran 10man in Wrath, fact. Lesser gear meant that almost all kept away from 10mans except for the first couple of weeks of ICC.

There was only a handful of minor reasons why 25man guilds would also run 10man, mainly to do with testing strategies.

However, i do agree with your point that this 1 lockout system in Cataclysm without much else to do in the game has resulted in boredom.

[Talen]

Correct, most of the raiding community see Cata raiding as a farce...

You do. A few others. I'm not seeing much cause to extend that into "most".

and do u really think there is such a utopian ideal as 'balance'?

Depends on how much room for error you allow. If you insist on exact equality in everyb single apsect, no.

1 raid size is the only way to fix this mess.

It would have been preferable. But it isn't the only way. So long as the two raid formats are reasonably equivalent to each other, two raid formats will work. And with the buff situation equalising in MoP, that'll be a lot easier.

Gamers will always choose the easiest route to a goal

Gamers will choose which ever route they prefer. To say otherwise is to say hard modes and difficulty levels have no value. They do. Many players appreciate a chellenge. Saying gamers will always, under every circumstance, choose the easiest path is an extreme over simplification.

Which format they choose will depend on numerous factors. Prestige. Loot. Their guild and friends. The challenge. The convenience. The content. Their preferred format. Availability. And so on. Not all of these are equal, but they'll all be considered and measured against a gamers needs, preferences and resources in time, PC power, bandwith, etc. A raid you can run because it has freeslots, has already formed, can be accomdated by your bandwith/PC power, etc will always beat a raidon a preferred format you can't.

I see u prove yet again that ur clueless of how large guilds operate... i guess your casual 10mans doesnt see what really happens in organised guilds right?

I can assure u that any 25man raiding guild has a sackful of alts so your nonsense logic that 25 divided by 10 is 2.5 and therefore means 5 players must employ puggers is total and utter garbage. 25man guilds will probably run 3 or even 4 10man runs if they needed to...

This argument is totally valid. Its a pity that large guilds are not the only type of guild that exist in the game. You might just have had a point. Maybe next time.

And yet again u bring up the MYTH that players were 'forced' to run both 10 and 25man raids back in Wrath, and continue to use that as a false reason why Blizzard changed it to 1 lockout. That NEVER happened.

Of course it did. And it was Blizzard who forced them by balancing content around them doing so. Granted, noone ever put a gun to their heads but if that is your definition of "forced" in the context of this debate, then you are completely missing the point and demonstrating a woeful lack of comprehension about human behaviour.

Thing is....Blizzard does feel that players were forced/obligated/overly encouraged to run the same raid multiple times. And they were. A lot of players hated...no, loathed...the Crusader raids...but they still had to play through it 4 times a week. Blizzards design model was partially responsible for that. And they got rid of it.

You would do well to actually (re) read the discussion Blizzard had on the subject and why they implemented the change. Which included their discussion on why they felt players were indeed under an obligation/forced to raid a I describe. You, personally, may feel such a scenario didn't exist. Blizzard felt otherwise and they moved to change that.

Hardly any 25man guild also ran 10man in Wrath, fact. Lesser gear meant that almost all kept away from 10mans except for the first couple of weeks of ICC.

Good one. Lesser gear indeed.

There was only a handful of minor reasons why 25man guilds would also run 10man, mainly to do with testing strategies.

Practise.
Achievements.
Titles.
Mounts.
Crafting mats.
Upgrades on existing gear.

These are your "handful of minor reasons". They are also the same reasons players ran 25s.

EJL

[Deleted]

I love 1 thing that cata made for my 2 server that im currently playing.
1st of all many 25-man guilds have downed to 10-man ,
Second those 25-man guilds that have downed to 10-man have reach a good ranking that if they we're still 25-man they we're gonna have problem due some slackers and some people underperfoming .
3rd those 10-man new hardcore guilds that we are seeying now due that i dont know, Most of them have simply dissapeared and in the last 2 months guilds 10-mans have more problems than the 25-man,
4th the population because of denying both 10-man aswell the 25-man had let servers become from Medium-High to a low pop server that after 1 years we downrate the population to a 30% from Last month of wotlk that server was having and to a 8 raiding guilds from 90 guilds. Looser are the remaing people that they cannot do anything because in an mmorpg if you won't find no more people to create even a 10-man casual guild than i suppose is better to shootdown the server.

I'm raiding as a 25-man raider and i can say few thing about 10-mans.
Seeying hardcore guilds 10-man with good players have become dust to dust due that some of the core players have stopped or changed guild aswell migration.Has same effect with the 25-man but is always harder to recruit an amazing player in the 10-man team.
10-mans always gonna give less chances to people that play the dps roll. And ofc the people that choose playing the dps-roll will always be a large percentage of the Wow population.Even with the ressurection scroll that i was sending to my offliners friends most of them was laughting at me (skype , ventrilo) because im playing this game.... People play an mmorpg game for the Mass of people that are within not for the 1-2 people online that 10-man has most of the time.
And sorry , but Again in term of activies and in order to keep people busy 10-man are falling offff by a large percentage .

Another thing , I know many Hardcore people that they're playing Mage/Hunter/Rogue and i could say every possible class/spec but due that 10-man is restricted to have a maximum of 6 dpsers , those people couldn't find any possible guild and simply become casuals and ending stopped the subs due that is not enjoyable anymore to play an mmorpg as a single player game.

Guess what , seeing recruitment status of 10-man guilds in mmo and in wow-eu/us.
Most of them are recruiting skilled People Tanks/Healers or dps with Legendary only<<
So if people are playing Single dps class like Warlock/Rogue/Hunter/Mage , aren't those people forced to even rerrol in order to have the chance to raid and enjoy this game>? Since like we know 85% if not more of population are playing the dps roll so people are not forced >? ( 10 man guild having the raid leader Sp with Legendary forced to rerrol to hes alt dk tank in order to have his guild doing progress in Ds====People aren't forced at all)

About options the're aren't anymore due that simply don't exist.

So Talen since you hate so much those 25-man guilds Answer this question. 5-man =10-man in terms of loot>? You will be forced to do 5-man or not/>>? Just wondering since its quite possible to see this in Future.

[Deleted]

Actually its the opposite, since T12 (when 10 mans started to become the "prefered" raid model as some would call it) the raiding population has dramatically started to fall. Look at the amount of guild completions from T11 in both modes and look at the correlation of overall sub numbers, raiding population kills and guild competition ratios between 10 and 25.

The wow population had already started dropping in T11 with hard dungeons and hard raids. T12 was another hard raid unnerfed, and 25 guilds that struggled even before to get the filller players that are required for them to function stopped turning up for the wipefests. So 10 man became the only option for progression for the average 25 man guild.
Also how many paying subscribers are 25 man raiders, or raiders at all? 5%? I remember back in tbc were the great majority players never sat their foot in a raid instance, and 25 man raiding virtually was a separate game.
What concerns blizzard when they look at raidmodels won't be absolute numbers, but how large percentage of the subscriber base find the raiding compelling. The more subscribers raiding, the greater the model. In this way the TBC raiding would be considered a utter failure.

Either way the only reason 10s are "prefered" right now is they are much lowered tuned, easier to manage, easier to form compared to their 25 counterparts anyways.

No it's not. in my case for example it's because I can raid with the people who are my friends, those people that were the reason I led a 25 man guild in the first place. Now I don't have to deal with 15 mediocre fillers and skilled players who are dicks but that I had to pretend care about so they wouldn't leave, so my friends and I could raid.

We also need to remember that this is the first time Blizzard worked with balancing 2 raid sizes as equals. Sadly most of the community thinks this is a farce but at least they are trying to make them equal and to prevent something similar like the imbalances between 10s and 25s due to the nature of dps races and mechanics. Therefore if it is nearly balanced I can see 25s somewhat making a comeback but I think the damage is done due and it will be slow for the standard raider to go back to a 25 worried that it might die.

You seem think a large part of the raiding community cares about the balance between 10 and 25, no, it's only a concern for the small subset of serious progression raiders, I would guessimate that 95% of the raiding community is there to kill bosses and collect loot.

Just my personal opinion but I don't see why we can't have a 25 heroic lockout and a 10 heroic lockout per week.

No reason other then it would kill 10 man progression raiding. Anyone who can would run 25 man for the gear, all lose good players will graviatate towards 25 man for the double dipping of gear. and 25 man guild can farm the 10 man guilds for talent and volia back to wotlk were 10 man raiding are the domain of the scrubs.

[Mr Goodkat]

Gamers will choose which ever route they prefer. To say otherwise is to say hard modes and difficulty levels have no value.

EJL

that's nonsense, sugarcoat it all you want, but the majority of players will always prefer the easier route in a given context if there are no consequences. you're a 10 man raider? care to share your raid setup? let me guess: it is stacked with range. of course because you have a inate preference for a mage or warlock and not because range have an a significantly easier time... or why did paragon use 11 ferals for nefarian, or most progress guilds a plethora of sub rogues and arcane mages for spine? or why do mages play fire and rogues combat generally? etc

it boils down to being easier regarding a boss kill.

your second sentence does not prove anything, because you change the context and there are consequences. normal mode is not hard mode. different loot, different achievements, extra mount and title

"i can play with my friends, we don't have to carry players (which 25 man raids apparantly all do), blablabla"
do you honestly think that all players in a 10 man guild are top notch? and that 25 man always have 10-15 mediocre players? or do you spout that nonsense simply because it's convenient for your agenda? isn't it more plausible that every guild within a similiar progress segment, be it 10 man or 25 man, has a similiar distribution of skill level among their players?

yes, 25 man raids that downsize could choose the 11-12 best players. but i can assure you, that this raid would not look like a typical 10 man raid ( maybe 4 of their best players are healers? or 4 melee etc) and that's not even addressing the issue of friendship, all these players regarding the others as friends.

the majority of people chose to do 25 man back in wotlk because it offered better loot ( think about it, all these 10 man raider who apparently "always preferred" 10 man size did 25 man size (although their pc could not handle it and they detested it) simply because it hat better loot; wow, you could imganine that having fun would be more important)

[Zik3l]

Having been an avid 25 player in the past, and now a 10 man player due to a lifestyle change - Jesus guys, it's not that big a deal.

Some fights are harder on 10 than 25 (prenerf Blackhorn was a pain on 10 where as 25 had the Raid CDs to throw around and the players to soak, there is a lot less room for error on MOD 10 as well.) and some are harder on 25 than 10 (Ultraxion and Spine say Hi!)

Stop the back and forth, ones got it easy on a certain boss, the other has it easy on another boss. End of the day, this is probably my first tier I won't come out BIS, thanks to 10man loot and it's persistence to drop the same 2 items every single week. I have done 12 full clears of H DS, as well as 20ish of the first 4/5 - we haven't seen any of the random agi rings, 1 vial, 1 warmaster bracers, and 1 spine boots. I'm not crossing my fingers to see any of it again after getting H dodge trinket and H plate shoulders combo 8 times in a row on Spine.

[Talen]

that's nonsense, sugarcoat it all you want, but the majority of players will always prefer the easier route in a given context if there are no consequences.

Some players will prefer the easier route. Others won't. Trouble is....the harder route in this case is referring to an out of raid issue and so WON'T affect their choice. They'll simply go with their existing raid group, be it 10 or 25, or if they are pugging, go for the first one they can. Which is usually going to be a 10 due to sheer numbers if nothing else.

However, challenge is one area where gamers - and lets not forget a good portion of those who play this ***game*** are gamers - actually seek out. Now, there is anothersection who won't care abouit difficulty so long as they are having fun. others won't care about the game at all...they just like hanging with friends.

You see, this entire argument wrt difficulty is based on the assumption that the formats are unevenly balanced. On the whole, they aren't.

you're a 10 man raider?

25 actually. I also do 10s.

isn't it more plausible that every guild within a similiar progress segment, be it 10 man or 25 man, has a similiar distribution of skill level among their players?

Actually - it isn't. Many players LIKE the idea they can raid ONLY with close friends. Others like the idea they don't need to carry people simply to make up numbers. Some groups will have a wide difference in skill because their focus is on fun. Others will have a narrow range because their focus is on progression.

the majority of people chose to do 25 man back in wotlk because it offered better loot

Amongst other reasons.

EJL

[Wreckage827]

I personally believe it is mostly the players to blame for killing 25 mans for the variety of reasons previously posted. I just don't see why it would be such bad thing if either 10 man or 25 man went out the window. They can finally focus on one group over the other and tune it to the degree it should be tuned. I grow very tired of the "25 man is for hardcore players and 10 man is easier".

[Dyart]

After so long Talen is still around?

Here's the real truth, real proof, not personal opinion: There is a paladin named Talen in EU server, with armory eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/veknilash/Talen/simple

That Talen, while may or not be this Talen here, never beat Deathwing on normal mode, as well as Rag, Nef, Chogall, LK and w/e other raid bosses.

That Talen, again posted a lot in an similar thread as this one: eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3429854536?page=14 You guys may compare the posts of that Talen with this Talen, and guess if they are the same person.

And this Talen in this thread, if you look at his post areas: www.mmo-champion.com/members/544227-Talen We see about total 4k posts, with 2k in general part and 2k in Paladin part. So you guys may have your own idea about if this Talen is a main or alt.

Now I am done stating all the truth. I am sorry if those are completely off-topic but w/e.

[Deleted]

Kinda lol.
Dyart really fun and kinda hahha ,
If is true it really show that this is the average skill..Brain?>>> Ideas and mostly the hate for mmorpg games>? Of the amazing 10-mans.
Lets hope is not....

[Talen]

After so long Talen is still around?

Here's the real truth, real proof, not personal opinion: There is a paladin named Talen in EU server, with armory eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/veknilash/Talen/simple

That Talen, while may or not be this Talen here, never beat Deathwing on normal mode, as well as Rag, Nef, Chogall, LK and w/e other raid bosses.

That Talen, again posted a lot in an similar thread as this one: eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3429854536?page=14 You guys may compare the posts of that Talen with this Talen, and guess if they are the same person.

And this Talen in this thread, if you look at his post areas: www.mmo-champion.com/members/544227-Talen We see about total 4k posts, with 2k in general part and 2k in Paladin part. So you guys may have your own idea about if this Talen is a main or alt.

Now I am done stating all the truth. I am sorry if those are completely off-topic but w/e.

The truth? Maybe.

Now...if you could please explain the relevance? Are trying to imply that I am this Talen on Vek and therefore don't raid heroics or normal and that as a result my opinion is worthless?

Sorry - doesn't work like that. Not in this debate...and you aren't the first person to try and link me with this.

You see....the big problem here is that I don't even need to have played the game at all to have an opinion. What playing the game does is give me personal insight into the format I personally prefer.

The rest?

The rest is reading Blizzards own discussions on the subject and why they changed things from the earlier models. The rest is asking if there is any valid reason why Blizzard needs to push 25s? The rest is agreeing with Blizzard that giving the players the choice, without coercion, can only be good. The rest is understanding that having a policy affecting game and raid is something that needs to be adhered to and that there is only a very limited degree of bend before the policy breaks.

The rest is understanding that people often try to deflect their own lack of a coherent counter argument by trying to shoot the messenger.

Ultimately, 25s are likely to die out. Its a pity, but thats where its headed. The question then is...are they worth saving? In this, it is a choice between the games current policies and raid model over a raid format that required huge levels of artificial support to ensure people took part in it. In short....no, the 25 man format probably isn't worth saving. Not because Blizzard will let it die. No....because the players let it die.

As it is, I don't need to raid to agree with those policies. Raid each raid once a week allowing Blizzard to balance loot drops and encounter difficulty around a known rate of progression? Implement steps to ensure players don't get burnt out? Define rewards based on the effort you put in? Remove guild drama by removing the problems associated with up and down scaling? Allow players the freedom to raid in their own preferred raid size? Recognise free time is increasingly rare amongst players and adjust the game accordingly. Dealing with issues relating to guild proression, player absence and critical roles? And so on.

From my pov, those are all worthwhile policies that recognise many of the issues affecting the game. And all discussed and explained by Blizzard. How many of these require first hand knowledge of raiding to understand? None.

Of course...there are the counter arguments. Player burnout doesn't exist Players should be able to say no. Shared lockouts mean I can't raid twice a week on the same avatar even if I want to. These too also require no first hand knowledge to understand. Or to understand the ramifications....such as the way removing the shared lockout would affect game balance and character progression and require Blizzard to choose to balance around the players who ran content once a week, or those who ran it multiple times a week....or the difficulties involved in balancing raid content around outside issues.

First hand knowledge of raiding, however, gives me a greater and deeper appreciation of the situation. It isn't, however, necessary to give me an understanding of the core issues.

Do I want to be able to run the same raid multiple times per week on the same character? Yes.
Am I aware of the consequences in doing so - raid design, burn out, game balance, etc? Yes.
Should I be able to do so? Not with the current reward system

Do I prefer 10s or 25s? 25s
Should Blizzard force/encourage/incentivise me to run that format simply to keep it alive? No

Do I have any strong objection to the concept of "equal reward for equal effort"? No.

But those are good enough for the people who really like 25s. The question the Op posed betrays this attitude.... Will BLIZZARD let 25 mans die?

The very question presupposes that Blizzard has a duty to ensure they don't. And thats wrong. Blizzard doesn't owe 25s a thing. 25s have no special right to exist. Blizzard has no duty to support the format at all. They do, and that makes me a happy little raider. But this is a player driven issue and it is the players actions which will determine whether 25s live or die. Not Blizzards. Blizzard can force us to play 25s, but it can't really make us want to. Need to? Yes. Want to? No.

And the best counterpoint you can provide is to say there is a Paladin on an EU realm who shares my name and he doesn't raid on that avatar very much? That it may or may not be me and even if it were, that it may or may not be an alt.

Personally, I find that argment weak and unconvincing. Still, as I told the last person to try this argumemt, I'm somewhat touched that you felt moved to make the effort to discredit me in this fashion. A bit worthless since the entire debate here is purely one of opinion and whether Blizzards raid model is good or bad and so not really amenable to being discredited in this manner but at least the effort shows I'm making some impression. Still...you could just have called me a Blizzard "fanboi" and saved yourself the effort.

EJL