[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Deleted]

I do think Resto needs at least two good choices. I'd be perfectly fine with Primal Elementalist not being a good choice for Resto if the other two were solid; with three wildly different specs, it's hard to ensure the talents are equally good for all three, so if they're good for two specs, and every spec has 2 solid choices, I'm okay with that.

Edit: It IS possible to make a talent just have three different effects, but IMO that's a lazy design route out of this problem.

I totally agree with you on this one. Perfectly fine for resto not to find Primal Elementalist interresting (and I'm sure there will be PVP situation where this could change). Anyway, by the look at it, I don't find the two others being "solid". I would love to see another or a longer effect on Unleash Earthliving so that when you read the tooltip you tell yourself "ok this one looks really usefull / I can see in which situations I need it / it really can change my gameplay a bit". This may only be me (and again I don't know nothing about the stats) but when I red it none of this came to my mind about Unleashed Earthliving in oppositions of the other effects.

As for the blast talent I felt the same. I'm ok with launching a dps spell to gain a benefit for my heal, but a short casting one if not instant.


To me this is the kind of things we need to discuss, because if there is something needed a change, it's during beta, not after release.


PS: btw thank you Endus for the great job you did on this post.

[Northy]

Another thing I'm curious about...When I quit WoW Elemental Focus reduced the mana cost of the next 2 damage or healing spells as well as increased spell dmg by 10%. The current MoP version also increases healing done by the Shaman's next 2 single target heals by 50%. That's not currently live either is it? It really bugged me during all of Cata how Ele was punished massively for healing themselves via the intense mana cost and weak healing numbers. This should help alleviate a lot of our many PvP problems.

[Radux]

Also true, Northy. Elemental Focus got a facelift. All the changed things should either have a strike through to reflect it going away, or be blue to reflect it being new.

[Emophia]

I'm fine with major's having drawbacks but the CHain heal range glyph should be baseline.

There is no excuse for that.

[Ulvhedner]

Not sure if anyone have covered in this thread already but, it would be nice if there's a little section dedicated to the symbiosis spell from druid

[Deleted]

This bothers me... why do you cry on that glyph of chain ? There were so many other changes that comes in interaction with it.

Now chain-heal does not consume charges of riptide. With the glyph of riptide having no CD you could have lots of target having the HOT, so it gives a lot of target to launch Chain-Heal on, making it benefit 25% more healing, and jumping a lot more far away with this new glyph.

So, ok -15% heal on chainheal, but you would never have it not benefit 25% from riptide buff with the others changes right ? So I guess it's not a loss at all. You could chain heal (wich is a smart heal) 30yrd between target with allways a 25% buff on a 15% less powerfull version. To me that's a benefit.

[Anonymitylol]

This bothers me... why do you cry on that glyph of chain ? There were so many other changes that comes in interaction with it.

Now chain-heal does not consume charges of riptide. With the glyph of riptide having no CD you could have lots of target having the HOT, so it gives a lot of target to launch Chain-Heal on, making it benefit 25% more healing, and jumping a lot more far away with this new glyph.

So, ok -15% heal on chainheal, but you would never have it not benefit 25% from riptide buff with the others changes right ? So I guess it's not a loss at all. You could chain heal (wich is a smart heal) 30yrd between target with allways a 25% buff on a 15% less powerfull version. To me that's a benefit.

Except 25m can ignore the glyph and any shaman mechanic problems, while 10m have to go for such. It's a bad design.

[Protoman]

For the people discussing the chain heal glyph: how far would the jump need to be for it to be "viable?" Bare minimum only please.

It's possible they can increase the normal range and then increase it further with the glyph.

It's 12.5 yds currently right? I would say add about 5 yds to it, so 18yds as the bare minimum, baseline range. That sounds fair to me. Then the glyph can add another 12 yds, but reduce effectiveness by 15% or whatever.

I don't understand all the people against increasing the base range. Chain heal range is a stated problem for Resto. We are known to have less effective heals unless the raid is tightly stacked. This will only help make us more well rounded. You have a narrow range aoe spell with healing rain, wider range aoe spell with chain heal, and a variety of single target heals and riptide hot. Right now Chain heal and Healing rain have almost the same radius of effect, it could use a buff to it's range to help with the jumping issue as well.

If not getting mana from being struck ALSO means an orb is not consumed when struck, it means you're not having to refresh it any more. And getting 10% more passive regen to make up for the loss of on-damage regen. Which would be great, IMO.

Yes, I think thats what the glyph does. You do not consume an orb when taking damage, so you don't lose orbs, but you also don't gain anymore mana from them, unlike the LS glyph. In return, you get more passive mana regen. The gain in passive regen does NOT make up for the on-damage regen, the orb procs were the major contributor to mana return from water shield.

This is an old, stale, boring, and tedious mechanic and should just get a solid update like LS did. Like I mentioned earlier, make these passive spec traits; for Ele/Enh damage will not drop your LS orbs below 3, and for Resto the same deal but for Water shield. These are practically mandatory glyphs and we shouldn't be wasting gcds every 5-10 sec refreshing our shields. Almost all other similar mechanics have had their charges removed, like Inner fire for priests. Why are we stuck in the past?



And who else agrees that Mana Tide Totem needs to be changed? Every other healers mana regen cd is based off max mana pool except ours. Being Spirit based, all that means is we get crappy regen to begin the xpac with (when we really need it), and gets better over time (when we are less reliant on it). It's also Resto's ONLY mana regen cd, and less effective because it has an aoe component. Meanwhile, other healers benefit from our MTT but also get 1-2 of their own personal regen cds.

MTT should be based off % of total mana, and give double return for the Shaman. So like 10% for the group, and 20% for the Shaman.



...Also, anyone know what spell school Elemental blast is? On the wowdb http://www.wowdb.com/spells/117014-elemental-blast , it lists all 3 schools. So does that mean it counts as nature and will be instant with MW5?

[Deleted]

I just got into the beta and one thing I wanted to try out worked.

You can cast the Capacitor totem, wait 4 seconds then use totem projection to move you totems to up to 40 yards away where the Capacitor totem will go off instantly if you time it right, I suspect this will change as a AoE 5 second stun that could be drop on people from 40 yards away could be a bit overpowered.

Also Glyth of totemic encirclement means when you always get 4 totems (1 of each element) whenever you cast one ( Could be useful for getting people to target dummy totems - though depends on what the names say on totems for yoru enemy)

[Endus]

Except 25m can ignore the glyph and any shaman mechanic problems, while 10m have to go for such. It's a bad design.

While it's even more situational for 25-man, my statements that it is situational and absolutely unnecessary for many fights is based on my own experiences as a 10-man raider. The only fight in (H) DS where I'd want to use it would really be Warmaster Blackhorn. In Firelands, the most unfriendly-to-Resto tier there's probably ever been, this particular glyph would have been a boon for Rhyolith, Ragnaros, and possibly Shannox, depending on fight strategy. Many of the other fights, while spread out, weren't AoE while spread out; Alysrazor and Majordomo had a lot of avoidable damage (Majordomo, the ranged can avoid 100% while spread out). Beth'tilac you could freely stack up just fine for healing. Baelroc the healing was very much based around the boss mechanic, and that mechanic wouldn't have been improved by Glyph of Chaining at all.

That's speaking from a 10-man (H) mode raider. It's a situational glyph. Sure, there's uses, but for most fights I don't really need it at all, and the situations where I want to use CH, people are stacking up anyway.

[ApocDev]

While it's even more situational for 25-man, my statements that it is situational and absolutely unnecessary for many fights is based on my own experiences as a 10-man raider. The only fight in (H) DS where I'd want to use it would really be Warmaster Blackhorn. In Firelands, the most unfriendly-to-Resto tier there's probably ever been, this particular glyph would have been a boon for Rhyolith, Ragnaros, and possibly Shannox, depending on fight strategy. Many of the other fights, while spread out, weren't AoE while spread out; Alysrazor and Majordomo had a lot of avoidable damage (Majordomo, the ranged can avoid 100% while spread out). Beth'tilac you could freely stack up just fine for healing. Baelroc the healing was very much based around the boss mechanic, and that mechanic wouldn't have been improved by Glyph of Chaining at all.

That's speaking from a 10-man (H) mode raider. It's a situational glyph. Sure, there's uses, but for most fights I don't really need it at all, and the situations where I want to use CH, people are stacking up anyway.

And whats to say the MoP raids won't be just like FL?

I understand you think the glyph is very situational, and while that may very well be true, it depends on what the content actually is (as far as I'm aware, nobody has seen the actual raids themselves, so nobody knows what the mechanics are going to be like). You can't really compare new glyphs, with what will be completely outdated content. That amounts to someone complaining that because Wind Shear is on a 10+s CD, they can't kill some boss in Molten Core. Its just a bad comparison.

[orderschvank]

that's a new (and awesome) thing. Basically baked t12 4 piece right into lava surge - and rightfully so.

nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that makes me so happy lol

[Endus]

And whats to say the MoP raids won't be just like FL?

Nothing.

Like I said; FL was the most unfriendly-to-stacked-healing raid we've ever seen. The possibility that ALL raids will be like that is tiny. And even if they were, the use of Glyph of Chaining in that tier is being overblown; it might have helped a bit on 3 bosses. That's it, really.

You can't really compare new glyphs, with what will be completely outdated content. That amounts to someone complaining that because Wind Shear is on a 10+s CD, they can't kill some boss in Molten Core. Its just a bad comparison.

Then nobody can make any kind of criticism about any of the content until we hit MoP raids. Arguing that you need Glyph of Chaining's effect baseline is making exactly the same assumptions I'm making, that you're now taking issue with.

The fact is; we haven't had a huge need for bigger-spreading Chain Heal. We've had issues with mobility, and with wide-spread AoE. Those are situational issues, and they are addressed by the tools for that purpose; glyphs and talents. If every raid's going to require everyone to spread way out and stay mobile, that's going to hurt more than just Resto Shaman.

[ApocDev]

Nothing.

Like I said; FL was the most unfriendly-to-stacked-healing raid we've ever seen. The possibility that ALL raids will be like that is tiny. And even if they were, the use of Glyph of Chaining in that tier is being overblown; it might have helped a bit on 3 bosses. That's it, really.



Then nobody can make any kind of criticism about any of the content until we hit MoP raids. Arguing that you need Glyph of Chaining's effect baseline is making exactly the same assumptions I'm making, that you're now taking issue with.

The fact is; we haven't had a huge need for bigger-spreading Chain Heal. We've had issues with mobility, and with wide-spread AoE. Those are situational issues, and they are addressed by the tools for that purpose; glyphs and talents. If every raid's going to require everyone to spread way out and stay mobile, that's going to hurt more than just Resto Shaman.

Lets compromise. Nerf-bat pallys. Problem solved.

[PsyBomb]

I just got into the beta and one thing I wanted to try out worked.

You can cast the Capacitor totem, wait 4 seconds then use totem projection to move you totems to up to 40 yards away where the Capacitor totem will go off instantly if you time it right, I suspect this will change as a AoE 5 second stun that could be drop on people from 40 yards away could be a bit overpowered.

Also Glyth of totemic encirclement means when you always get 4 totems (1 of each element) whenever you cast one ( Could be useful for getting people to target dummy totems - though depends on what the names say on totems for yoru enemy)

If that Capacitor trick makes it into life (I give it about a 30% chance), it solves a LOT of our CC issues all in one go. A lot of people are missing that it's an 8-yard stun with good duration, about the only comparable spell currently in the game is Shadowfury (which is going to be a Talent, while Capacitor is baseline with the throw being talented).

Totemic Encirclement is going into my PvP arrangements, easy, but definitely coming off for PvE (unless encounters change rather dramatically). I do NOT want to be mistaking my own dummies in a heated moment.

[Northy]

Still no Shaman MoP vids eh? yargh...

[Protoman]

The fact is; we haven't had a huge need for bigger-spreading Chain Heal. We've had issues with mobility, and with wide-spread AoE. Those are situational issues, and they are addressed by the tools for that purpose; glyphs and talents. If every raid's going to require everyone to spread way out and stay mobile, that's going to hurt more than just Resto Shaman.

One of Resto's known weaknesses is that they require the raid to be close together to use their group healing spells effectively. When players spread out or run away to avoid damage, it has a big influence on your ability to heal using those spells. Then, specifically for Chain Heal, it is known to sometimes not jump properly even though it should. This could easily be solved by increasing the base range by ~5yds, from 12.5 to 18yds baseline.

Healing Rain- 10yd radius - short range aoe spell
Chain Heal- from 12.5-18yd radius - goes from short to medium range aoe spell

It's that simple, 5 yds is not much. It's not gonna make Resto OP, or other healers feel UP. It will simply make chain heal more effective, work in a wider variety of situations, and fix the jumping problem that happens sometimes when people are just out of range or move in the middle of a jump.

You can still have the glyph to increase the jump range further, from 18 to 25-30yds, and have a penalty on that. But I feel like some type of baseline buff to its range is needed. I think just about every other healer has a 30yd range group heal: wild growth, light of dawn, prayer of healing, circle of healing. Why should we be left out?



...And on the topic of being left out, why are we the only healer class whose mana cd is based on spirit, not total mana pool? Mana Tide totem should be based on mana pool, and give us double the benefit of everyone else since its our only regen cd. Should be like "returns 10% of total mana to group, and 20% to the Shaman".

If that Capacitor trick makes it into life (I give it about a 30% chance), it solves a LOT of our CC issues all in one go. A lot of people are missing that it's an 8-yard stun with good duration, about the only comparable spell currently in the game is Shadowfury (which is going to be a Talent, while Capacitor is baseline with the throw being talented).

Yea, I'm not entirely sure it will make the final cut either (considering how reluctant Blizz is to give Shamans a stun), but I am really hoping it will. Finally a chance to stun those damn rogues. Soon as they pop up and I know I'm going to get caught in a stun lock, I'll drop it and while they try and open up on me it'll stun them halfway thru....combo breaker! The potential to drop, then launch it as its about to detonate is powerful too, will be great for stopping flag caps.

[Peachy]

Oh huh. Now that you mention it, the talents don't say anything about removing the cd. So I guess we DON'T have perma ele pets then, just a stronger cd. Unless "pets under your control" implies that we can have them out all the time?

Now I really AM annoyed that we have to talent to get proper control of them. They should still give us a pet bar with passive, offensive, defensive selections even if we can't use any of their abilities and they just autocast like normal.

i'm going off a hunch here but i bet it's gonna work how unholy dk's work now. being unholy allows you to control your ghoul as pet however raise dead still has a cooldown.

so you use your cd to summon your fire ele and if it dies within those 5 mins your without it for the remaining cd. this hunch only really works though if picking up the talent "leashes" the elemental to you and not a totem similar to how other controlled pets work

[Endus]

You can still have the glyph to increase the jump range further, from 18 to 25-30yds, and have a penalty on that. But I feel like some type of baseline buff to its range is needed. I think just about every other healer has a 30yd range group heal: wild growth, light of dawn, prayer of healing, circle of healing. Why should we be left out?

Light of Dawn is NOT an example that supports your argument. The testing I've seen on it says that it's 10 yards wide or so. So while it has greater flexibility in range from the paladin, it has less ability to heal to the left and right.

If everyone's in a nice straight line away from the paladin? Sure, great. If they're scattered all over? Chain Heal would be better. If they're in an arc? Chain heal. Any situation but a line 10y wide and 30y away from the paladin, and Chain Heal will win out.

Chain Heal's closer to a version of Holy Radiance, anyway. As for whether the stacked healing will be amazing, we really need numbers to say for sure. Without seeing how things play out at 90 in entry-level dungeon gear, at least, it's hard to say who's going to be amazing or not. I will say, though, that there was a time when Chain Heal, 12.5y jump and all, was the most OP healing spell in the entire game. The jump mechanic is NOT what's reducing its use. It's the relatively low healing it does. And in that regard, the Riptide boost, especially as it no longer consumes Riptide, should be a help in that regard. We'll need to see how it plays at 90.

But seriously, I went Resto back in TBC because we needed a healer. And proceeded to destroy HPS charts in every raid by spamming CH everywhere, 12.5y jump radius and all. That specifically is not what's killing our healing. If it were, we wouldn't have been so crazy OP by using 90% CH during TBC.

[mrinvisable2]

That's a new (and awesome) thing. Basically baked T12 4 piece right into Lava Surge - and rightfully so.

Its so funny that 50 % of shaman 2set or 4 set bonuses becomes part of shaman spells/ talents in next expansion