[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Deleted]

My stance on that is that if you absolutely have to be in the top 5 DPS in your 25-man, then what you should be doing is leveling and gearing at least two alts to the same level as your "main", and swapping around based on whatever is the current FoTM. A lot of the big world-first guilds do precisely this; it's how they're able to stack 10 Mages, because 10 of their players have Mages or Mage alts they can swap in.

100% this. My guild is going for World Top 20 in Mists. We are each rolling 3 characters each so we can class stack. If you want to be top in your raids (and your all playing at 100% and its only your class that can improve, not you) then the answer is not 'buff my class!' its play multiple classes. Its not right to want your class to be top, because not every class can be top. In a perfect world everyone would be top, but also everyone would be last and everyone would be in the middle. If your already in the middle your where you should be. To be the outlier at the top requires you to play the 5% FotM, not to cry if you aren't the FotM.

Also, arguements like "but we never get to be top DPS, I want to be top DPS just once" is not valid either because:

1 - There ARE fights where we are really good in the past, and there is definitely some in Mists. 100%

2 - Thats still asking to be top, which doesn't work in class balance

[Tharkash]

100% this. My guild is going for World Top 20 in Mists. We are each rolling 3 characters each so we can class stack. If you want to be top in your raids (and your all playing at 100% and its only your class that can improve, not you) then the answer is not 'buff my class!' its play multiple classes. Its not right to want your class to be top, because not every class can be top. In a perfect world everyone would be top, but also everyone would be last and everyone would be in the middle. If your already in the middle your where you should be. To be the outlier at the top requires you to play the 5% FotM, not to cry if you aren't the FotM.

Also, arguements like "but we never get to be top DPS, I want to be top DPS just once" is not valid either because:

1 - There ARE fights where we are really good in the past, and there is definitely some in Mists. 100%

2 - Thats still asking to be top, which doesn't work in class balance

So what you're saying is that you support poor balancing with the excuse of anyone can roll alts to play the FotM rather than.. you know, balance the classes? Class stacking is something, that GC has said multiple times, they don't want. Your response to people that want shaman to be the top is roll an alt? This is getting ridiculous...

[Deleted]

So what you're saying is that you support poor balancing with the excuse of anyone can roll alts to play the FotM rather than.. you know, balance the classes? Class stacking is something, that GC has said multiple times, they don't want. Your response to people that want shaman to be the top is roll an alt? This is getting ridiculous...

Its not poor balancing. If in a 25 man guild, you are roughly 10th, as long as you are within 5% DPS of the person at the top, then its balanced. If the person at the top is significantly ahead its either your not as good as them or they are overpowered. Balance is done around the middle of the pack, not the top of it. On the beta if you exclude the overpowered classes (Hunters - been nerfed, Boomkins - been nerfed and Warlocks - been nerfed) we are easily within 5% and in the top 10 easily. Thats where we want to be, if slightly too high (hence the nerfs - we WERE slightly too good).

I don't support bad balancing, anyone that wishes we were number 1, or complains that we aren't number 1 however DOES support bad balancing. Thats just asking to be overpowered.

In response to the class stacking. They dont want it, but theres physically no way to stop it. Mathematically there will always be a top class. They have said they class it balanced if your within 5% of the middle. However, if you have a choice between playing the middle class or the class 5% above middle, to the same skill level and with the same gear - and you care about only numbers - then you pick the class 5% above the middle. Not every class can ask to be 5% above the middle because all that does is move where the middle is.

[Lavindar]

I don't mind be middle of the pack, I don't even use a Damage Meter Addon, but when you have a situation where the only way to improve is to play another class, then it's no balanced.

I know that it's impossible to attain a level where everyone perform at equal efficiency, so I don't see the problem in waiting to be the one on top.

[Deleted]

I don't mind be middle of the pack, I don't even use a Damage Meter Addon, but when you have a situation where the only way to improve is to play another class, then it's no balanced.

I know that it's impossible to attain a level where everyone perform at equal efficiency, so I don't see the problem in waiting to be the one on top.

If all you care about is being number 1 on the meters, the answer is to play the FotM class, not to ask to be it. Its not 'the only way to improve', its the way to always be the best. If you want to have a 'main' then you by extension can not always be number 1. The game will never be 100% balanced so that statement will always be true. Even if you main a Mage (the one everyone always picks when talking about what they wish they did) there will be times where you are not the top class, so - assuming exactly equal gear and exactly equal skill - you can not expect to always be top. The ONLY way to always be top is to constantly change class based on FotM.

Thats the point Endus (and I by extension) was making. If magically you always play 100% perfectly and have 100% BiS items the only way to increase your numbers is to roll the class that mathematically does more. That is not "Forget Shaman, we will always suck, just reroll now the sky is falling". That statement applies to every single class in the game.

This is why you see mass Feral Druids on nefarion, mass boomkins on ragnaros, mass arcane mages on spine. They - on those particular fights - were such a significant jump over any other class that top end guilds brought lots of them. Because they were more effective. That same logic of class stacking to beat bosses can be applied to topping meters if topping meters is your goal - play the class that does that thing best (tops meters).

[Endus]

So what you're saying is that you support poor balancing with the excuse of anyone can roll alts to play the FotM rather than.. you know, balance the classes? Class stacking is something, that GC has said multiple times, they don't want. Your response to people that want shaman to be the top is roll an alt? This is getting ridiculous...

That's reality.

If you want to play the FotM spec, you need to have alts that you can swap to when they become the FotM spec. In any given tier, there's going to be maybe 5 specs that are classed as "top" specs. That's not enough for even every class to be in that list, let alone every spec. That's not what balance is about, and what you're saying you want is not "a balanced spec". What you're actually asking for is to be overpowered, and that it's unfair that you're not overpowered.

You can't have everyone be overpowered. Nor is it possible to get specs as closely balanced as you think they should be, not without making the classes mechanically identical. Those differences that make each class "feel" different are precisely what leads to certain classes being overpowered in any given tier, because the circumstances are to their advantage. You can improve the gaps between specs, and they DO work on this, but there will ALWAYS be a ranking of "best" to "worst" in DPS charts.

The facts are, it was once considered "okay" for a hybrid DPS spec to be 20% behind pures or more. In Black Temple, Enhancement ran about 30% behind Rogues and Warriors for personal DPS, in BiS gear. Looking at the current DPS charts, Shaman are about 8.5-10% behind the absolute max DPS, and we're at the bottom of the curve. That's a LOT tighter than it's been in expansions past. If you look even at Firelands, the gap between top and bottom (excluding fire mages because their Alysrazor performance skews the curve) was almost 16%. At the end of 4.1, it was more like a 25% difference between top and bottom.

To put that in perspective, the worst competitive DPS right now in DS are closer to the top specs than the average DPS were during T11, relatively speaking.

Which means balance has steadily improved.

[paror]

100% this. My guild is going for World Top 20 in Mists. We are each rolling 3 characters each so we can class stack. If you want to be top in your raids (and your all playing at 100% and its only your class that can improve, not you) then the answer is not 'buff my class!' its play multiple classes. Its not right to want your class to be top, because not every class can be top. In a perfect world everyone would be top, but also everyone would be last and everyone would be in the middle. If your already in the middle your where you should be. To be the outlier at the top requires you to play the 5% FotM, not to cry if you aren't the FotM.

Also, arguements like "but we never get to be top DPS, I want to be top DPS just once" is not valid either because:

1 - There ARE fights where we are really good in the past, and there is definitely some in Mists. 100%

2 - Thats still asking to be top, which doesn't work in class balance

Wow, sorry but I totally disagree, I personally will reroll if shamans are shit(t11 SHIT). But you are forgetting a few things. People have history with mains (mounts for example, my gladiator mount does not carry over, pretty shit). Also swinging the argument from "we are fine" -> "we are fine, you provide evidence" -> "if you want to be top dps go roll alts" Sorry I am not seeing the logic in this at all. For me the part about us providing evidence is really making me want to puke. You do not deliver yourself -> yeah top guild people , ofc...Because why would they want to hide that shamans are in a good spot? Makes no sense really. Private logs!, ofc. Then blanket the names in a screenshot etc.

Also claming "there are fights where we are really good in the past? wich one? really wich one?, 100% in mists? , like endus says: where is your evidence you are claiming something.

Asking to be top ~ classbalance ?? If we are 10-20% behind, we are behind. Nothing to do with "asking to be top" . However people feel classes like mages/hunters/rogue's have been top a little too long, I can relate to people want to shine a bit for once and not "always be under the mage" altho it does not fit in "classbalance". Luckly blizzard actually balances stuff really fast into a expansion, oh wait they never do until months have passed or even a major new raid is released.....and that is what we know from looking back, for 7 years now their balancing takes months, regardless of their "tuning" now before xpac. if they release mop and people complain after 2 weeks shaman dps is too low(wich it will be if everything stays like this according to current sims, watching streams, leveling a shaman, mage and priest on the beta, doing some simple napkin math, insight into playing the class for years) it WILL take 4/5 months to get a 1% dps boost(history) wich still is not enough to come close to the top5.

[Invisibo the Ogre]

When was the last time Shaman was the FotM? I'm sincerely curious and not trying to be snarky with that. Long time rogue here, I've had my fair share of time in the sun.

[Sarevokcz]

100% this. My guild is going for World Top 20 in Mists. We are each rolling 3 characters each so we can class stack. If you want to be top in your raids (and your all playing at 100% and its only your class that can improve, not you) then the answer is not 'buff my class!' its play multiple classes. Its not right to want your class to be top, because not every class can be top. In a perfect world everyone would be top, but also everyone would be last and everyone would be in the middle. If your already in the middle your where you should be. To be the outlier at the top requires you to play the 5% FotM, not to cry if you aren't the FotM.

Also, arguements like "but we never get to be top DPS, I want to be top DPS just once" is not valid either because:

1 - There ARE fights where we are really good in the past, and there is definitely some in Mists. 100%

2 - Thats still asking to be top, which doesn't work in class balance

There were? Besides Baleroc for a few weeks before everyone got gear, while we rocked OP FET setbonus (since basically all we needed was setbonus and rep trinket) and possibly Sinestra before they changed EQ, there was only Hagara and only on 25man. There wasnt a single boss whole Cata where I would go like "damn, I wish we had one more dps shaman here" unlike wishing for DoTers for multitarget fight or better AoErs for some fights or better nukers for some other fights.

even looking at raidbots, sure, overall 25m HC we are "middle of the pack," in top 100 and barely the middle of the pack in all parses. the difference is every single class has atleast one spec ahead of us. There are also fights where we are basically very subpar, even stationary fight like Ultrax, when we are simming OKish (with legendary), we are with balance druid last on 25man by quite some margin. The rest of the bosses we are at middle or lower. Now look at 10man, its even worse there.

There are some MoP fights where we might be good (top 8) spec, sure. But the keyword here is "might." I stopped believing anything from blizzard, until its crystal clear live and some "might", "soon", "possibly" or similar promises/mentions

Also the fotm argument.. its funny, because I dont remember mages, rogues or hunters ever being low-ish, they always seem to have a "FotM" spec(s).

---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 11:38 PM ----------

When was the last time Shaman was the FotM? I'm sincerely curious and not trying to be snarky with that. Long time rogue here, I've had my fair share of time in the sun.

in PvE? restos in tBC for BL stacking (and being only one of two classes with aoe heals)

[Endus]

Also the fotm argument.. its funny, because I dont remember mages, rogues or hunters ever being low-ish, they always seem to have a "FotM" spec(s).

That's because, as pure specs, they have three DPS specs to choose from, and swap to whichever of those three specs is the "best".

Meanwhile, with Shaman players, you'll see people very regularly refusing to play a different spec because it's not the role they prefer. This has nothing to do with class balance, and everything to do with player's refusal to adapt to changes in circumstances.

If you're Enhancement and you refuse to go Elemental if it's the better spec for PvE right now, then you've got no call comparing yourself to a Mage who will swap from Fire to Arcane as patches change which is the FotM.

Conversely, if you've got a diehard Arcane player, guess what? He's doing orders of magnitude worse than Shaman are.



---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 05:46 PM ----------

in PvE? restos in tBC for BL stacking (and being only one of two classes with aoe heals)

It wasn't just BL stacking, Resto also provided more HPS than any other healer for most of TBC. If I wasn't beating everyone by 10% or more on HPS charts in Hyjal/BT, I wasn't making the effort I should've been.

[Deleted]

Wow, sorry but I totally disagree, I personally will reroll if shamans are shit(t11 SHIT). But you are forgetting a few things. People have history with mains (mounts for example, my gladiator mount does not carry over, pretty shit). Also swinging the argument from "we are fine" -> "we are fine, you provide evidence" -> "if you want to be top dps go roll alts" Sorry I am not seeing the logic in this at all. For me the part about us providing evidence is really making me want to puke. You do not deliver yourself -> yeah top guild people , ofc...Because why would they want to hide that shamans are in a good spot? Makes no sense really. Private logs!, ofc. Then blanket the names in a screenshot etc.

1 - You DO have to provide evidence. You cant just say 'we suck, omfg the sky is falling omfg wtf blizz' with absolutely nothing to back it up.
2 - Private logs are private for a reason. If a guild chooses to keep its logs private, that doesn't mean 'Just take a SS and post the SS instead'

Also claming "there are fights where we are really good in the past? wich one? really wich one?, 100% in mists? , like endus says: where is your evidence you are claiming something.

Baleroc for one. Go to Spiritbinder on the beta. There is a phase where you go into a shadow realm and theres loads of adds you need to kill and your not able to leave the zone till you reach max hp. Elemental Shaman are absolutely perfect on that fight. Our AoE is really high and you CL spam with Ancestral Guidance and you can almost solo it without a healer.

Asking to be top ~ classbalance ?? If we are 10-20% behind, we are behind. Nothing to do with "asking to be top" . However people feel classes like mages/hunters/rogue's have been top a little too long, I can relate to people want to shine a bit for once and not "always be under the mage" altho it does not fit in "classbalance". Luckly blizzard actually balances stuff really fast into a expansion, oh wait they never do until months have passed or even a major new raid is released.....and that is what we know from looking back, for 7 years now their balancing takes months, regardless of their "tuning" now before xpac. if they release mop and people complain after 2 weeks shaman dps is too low(wich it will be if everything stays like this according to current sims, watching streams, leveling a shaman, mage and priest on the beta, doing some simple napkin math, insight into playing the class for years) it WILL take 4/5 months to get a 1% dps boost(history) wich still is not enough to come close to the top5.

1 - We aren't 10-20% behind, thats the point. No way

2 - Yes they do changes when things go live, if its broken. If a class some how managed to launch 10-20% above everyone else then yes it would be nerfed.

3 - Blizzard obviously agrees with me that we are in a more than okay place, because of the fact they slightly nerfed us. They don't just nerf for no reason. Boss fights aren't just target dummies. Just take our movement for example. We can do ~90% of max DPS even if we are moving for the entire fight. What other class can do that?

[oberetta]

Pre-nerf Spine also made the resto shaman in high demand. we switched a hunter to an lfr-geared shammy alt just to use slt on rolls and -Bang!- server first! But yeah, I don't ever remember anyone saying "if we just had one more ele..."

[Sarevokcz]

That's because, as pure specs, they have three DPS specs to choose from, and swap to whichever of those three specs is the "best".

Meanwhile, with Shaman players, you'll see people very regularly refusing to play a different spec because it's not the role they prefer. This has nothing to do with class balance, and everything to do with player's refusal to adapt to changes in circumstances.

If you're Enhancement and you refuse to go Elemental if it's the better spec for PvE right now, then you've got no call comparing yourself to a Mage who will swap from Fire to Arcane as patches change which is the FotM.

I already said several times, I never really played enha and just last few weeks I got some gear to try it out (And actually found it more engaging that rogue, retri or war, go figure, should have tried sooner) but the issue here is not between switching specs (even tho its a pain to get enha gear when you have hunter, rogue and feral tank in 10man) but the fact, that rather than bring whatever spec from my main (and even with all the addons I have, I regularly switch to resto and switching between three specs would be pain), I would rather bring my undergeared (not so much anymore) hunter and completely destroy my ranked shaman dps (or utility sometimes) on 75% fights... and I did, quite alot on some progress and actually I think the only fight I havent outdpsed myself on is Morchok and that is quite possibly because our altraid (clearing 8/8 HC) is very tight with buffs and debuffs and we are regularly missing alteast two buffs and only one can be covered by pet and its even worse with split groups

It wasn't just BL stacking, Resto also provided more HPS than any other healer for most of TBC. If I wasn't beating everyone by 10% or more on HPS charts in Hyjal/BT, I wasn't making the effort I should've been.

Like I said, we had spammable, sustainable AoE heal, something really helpful in BT and Hyjal and basically required in SWP.

[zenga]

That's because, as pure specs, they have three DPS specs to choose from, and swap to whichever of those three specs is the "best".

Meanwhile, with Shaman players, you'll see people very regularly refusing to play a different spec because it's not the role they prefer. This has nothing to do with class balance, and everything to do with player's refusal to adapt to changes in circumstances.

If you're Enhancement and you refuse to go Elemental if it's the better spec for PvE right now, then you've got no call comparing yourself to a Mage who will swap from Fire to Arcane as patches change which is the FotM.

You are ignoring the way classes are designed, and the practical reality. A mage has 3 specs, sharing the same role, the same main stat (int) and the same set gear across all 3 specs. A mage can relatively easy decide to play a whole different spec if need be, might not be optimal but doable. Shamans have 3 specs, and 3 different roles (ranged, melee and healer), each spec has their own set gear, spread out over 2 different main stats (agi/int). It is progress that determines if a spec is good enough or not, based for a major part on encounter design. That's simply way too late for an ele shaman to play a different spec, as you have the whole gearing issue (unless you have 9 month patches like DS where there is plenty of gear.

I'm not even mentioning the different roles. Say you run with 2x tank, 3 healer, a rogue, a warrior, a lock, an ele shaman and a mage. If ele falls short you can't just decide to play resto shaman in that roster, and many fights were absolutely not melee friendly either. If you even take out the whole gearing issue, then a mage just stays in his role, just a different spec.

You simply can't use the argument that an ele shaman playing enhancement is the same as a fire mage going arcane. If you do so, you ignore a part of the reality.

[Deleted]

You simply can't use the argument that an ele shaman playing enhancement is the same as a fire mage going arcane. If you do so, you ignore a part of the reality.

No, your the one ignoring the reality. The way maths works is one of the 23 specs has to mathematically be top. A 3 in 23 chance is bigger than a 1 in 23 chance of being number 1. If you are willing to go enhance as ele or ele as enhance then your doubling your chance to be top dps (or higher on the meters anyway). Just because its EASIER to change from Arcane to Fire doesn't change the fact you don't have the option to go Enhance from Ele or visa versa. The extension of this is the point of having alts. If you have two pure dps alts and are willing to go enhance and ele, then you have 8 out of 23 specs covered and the likelihood of you having a spec available to you in the top 5 increases. Thats just how it works.

[zenga]

No, your the one ignoring the reality. The way maths works is one of the 23 specs has to mathematically be top. A 3 in 23 chance is bigger than a 1 in 23 chance of being number 1. If you are willing to go enhance as ele or ele as enhance then your doubling your chance to be top dps (or higher on the meters anyway). Just because its EASIER to change from Arcane to Fire doesn't change the fact you don't have the option to go Enhance from Ele or visa versa. The extension of this is the point of having alts. If you have two pure dps alts and are willing to go enhance and ele, then you have 8 out of 23 specs covered and the likelihood of you having a spec available to you in the top 5 increases. Thats just how it works.

... and if you have all alts then you cover 100%. I don't see at all what your post has to do with the point I made. You bring in top 5 and 23 specs, that's not related to my comment. The everlasting argument is that every hybrid spec/role should be viable and that if 1 spec from a pure is not viable, it's not as bad as for a hybrid. I'm saying that a disc playing holy is easier than a disc have to go shadow, when disc turns out to be crap. Just like a fire mage goes arcane vs a boomkin having to go feral. It's not the same for obvious reasons I mentioned in my previous post. Even a novice wow player can see that.

[Lavindar]

Balance means that I can play whenever I want and be able to be as good, if I need to change specs its a lack of balance. We could be where we should, but if someone will be better I don't see what's the problem if its shaman. I not asking for be the Overpowered top dps, I just think that saying that we should not try to be the top one is a fallacious argument if we want the most balanced game.

[Endus]

You are ignoring the way classes are designed, and the practical reality. A mage has 3 specs, sharing the same role, the same main stat (int) and the same set gear across all 3 specs. A mage can relatively easy decide to play a whole different spec if need be, might not be optimal but doable. Shamans have 3 specs, and 3 different roles (ranged, melee and healer), each spec has their own set gear, spread out over 2 different main stats (agi/int). It is progress that determines if a spec is good enough or not, based for a major part on encounter design. That's simply way too late for an ele shaman to play a different spec, as you have the whole gearing issue (unless you have 9 month patches like DS where there is plenty of gear.

This only becomes relevant mid-content. If you're playing Enhancement, and Enhancement is looking meh on the PTR compared to Elemental, and you're concerned about your performance, you should be preparing to play Elemental. While building an offset of gear so you can swap back if a future patch calls for it.

I've been playing Elemental rigorously since late WotLK. I still have been building and maintaining gear sets for Enhancement and Resto. If the situation called for it, I'd have done whatever I needed to, spec-wise, to improve my guild's shot at a kill. I DO use my Resto set somewhat often. My Enhancement set has basically been a waste of gold since I've never felt changing specs was worth it in Cata, but I still maintain it.

I'm not even mentioning the different roles. Say you run with 2x tank, 3 healer, a rogue, a warrior, a lock, an ele shaman and a mage. If ele falls short you can't just decide to play resto shaman in that roster, and many fights were absolutely not melee friendly either. If you even take out the whole gearing issue, then a mage just stays in his role, just a different spec.

You simply can't use the argument that an ele shaman playing enhancement is the same as a fire mage going arcane. If you do so, you ignore a part of the reality.

Right, but even though it's more difficult to gear those three different roles, it's also a greater benefit to the player. Too much melee? Go Elemental. A Warrior or Rogue can't do that; they get benched if they're the extra, or have to play an alt. Too many DPS but short on healers? Go Resto. Again, no pure DPS has this option, they just get benched if they're the swing player, or swap to an alt.

If you're saying things like "many fights are just not melee friendly", but you're still a staunch Enhancement player who's going to play Enhancement regardless, then you are NOT trying to optimize your performance. That's the point. Yes, it's harder to make the swap for a hybrid mid-tier, but if you know the next tier is unfriendly to melee (and you DO know this when it launches, thanks to PTR testing, if you're looking for it), and your guild needs you DPSing, you should be swapping to Elemental unless there's some other major reason to stick Enhancement.

Or just admit you're less concerned with optimizing your performance, and be content with your spot on the charts as long as it's somewhat competitive, which almost every spec (including both Shaman specs) absolutely currently is. Which is fine. Nobody's going to laugh at you and call you names if this is your preference. But you don't get to say "my spec needs to be top 5 because screw all those other specs, their players matter less than me".


Here's a test; if you're an Enhancement or Elemental player, and you think your spec should be in the top 5 to be competitive, here's a list;

• Frost DK
• Unholy DK
• Feral Druid
• Balance Druid
• BM Hunter
• MM Hunter
• Surv Hunter
• Arcane Mage
• Fire Mage
• Frost Mage
• Windwalker Monk
• Ret Paladin
• Shadow Priest
• Assassination Rogue
• Combat Rogue
• Subtlety Rogue
• Elemental Shaman
• Enhancement Shaman
• Affliction Warlock
• Demonology Warlock
• Destruction Warlock
• Arms Warrior
• Fury Warrior

Delete whichever spec of Shaman you think "should be" top 5, and pick 4 other specs to be in that top 5. Now give detailed explanations as to why every single one of the 18 remaining specs deserves to not be competitive. Reasonable, honest explanations. Every one.

That's the issue. You can maybe eliminate BM Hunters, Frost Mages, Subtlety Rogues, and a Warlock spec, as "PvP specs". Even if we pick one of the DK and Warrior specs as being similar in role, so they can be divided into PvP/PvE, that's down to 12. 12 specs that you need to justify tuning below Shaman.

I don't think Blizzard actually does this, because it's a ridiculous exercise. But so is the idea that our specs "need" to be in the top 5 or whatever to be "competitive".

[Jotaux]

I'll only have a problem if the classes are so unbalanced you know who will be top dps just from their class.

I'm hoping that with the buff to our crit damage that we will scale a bit better and not fall behind as everyone gets geared.

[binkenstein]

It's also worth pointing out that we're currently comparing stationary DPS figures, when as far as I know there isn't a Patchwerk-esque fight in T14. We can't make informed calls about our performance based on SimCraft because as far as I know most classes still have to have their movement action list updated (and Mages still need to be added in). Even going to the Heavy Movement setting, Elemental is still throwing out 80% of our stationary DPS, and if you add in UL then you can boost that to 90%.

We haven't even seen the impact of the latest round of changes in the results yet, so I think it's a little early to say that everything is bad.