[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Omanley]

Feral Druids also have to rely on a proc to get their instant cast CC, and they have to shift form to use it. A ranged CC as powerful as Hex or Cyclone need to have drawbacks if used by a melee, and those drawbacks are either the melee has to stop and cast or if its instant - which makes it very, very powerful as there is no way to counter it - then it can't always be up.

Right, Ferals. But cyclone has no cd at the least, which in my mind, makes it more powerful. Also it makes the target unable to move. Maybe feral is in need of a small CC buff as well, but you cant just say that one class being in a similar spot makes it okay that 4 others are not.
Also there aren't really ways to counter blind or intimidating shout, are there? They are both instant cast and have a little range also (IS having quite lower range, but being aoe which more than makes up for that).
Hex isn't nearly as powerful as you make it out to be. It has lots of drawbacks such as the effect itself, the rather long cd (which, by itself is normal for a melee CC), and the cast time (which, for a melee, is not normal). It doesn't need the drawback of having to stack a rng based, requiring 5 stacks buff that requires constant melee contact, time and luck to make it instant.

No melee DPS has a CC as powerful as Hex that is instant cast and not gained from a proc, why should Enhance.

Sap, Blind, Intimidating Shout, Paladins' new ability blinding light. None of these have as high a range, but powerfulness is not limited to only that, obviously.
Melee CCs imo seem to be balanced around stuff like the actual effect it provides, wether it is aoe, requires stealth or whatever.
The one common thing melee CCs have in common (or are supposed to have in common at the least) is that they should be instant.
The very fact that the only two classes, that dont have their CC instant baseline have a spec specific baseline ability that makes those abilities instant. This should give us enough a hint that a class, requiring to stay in an enemies' face to stay useful should not be forced to stand still, hardcasting, if he's unlucky with procs.

Also a thing you forgot to mention is that feral's instant spells are triggered from 5cp finishers, which are very frequent and not in the least RNG. A feral runs his normal cp-builder/finisher agenda and within seconds unleashes a finisher with instant cyclone on top. If it is trinketed in a few additional seconds he'll unleash another cyclone.

If an enhance's hex is trinketed, not only is hex gone for 45 seconds, for him to use it in the first place he likely requires twice as much time as a feral would need.

And I dont want to build this into a class x has that and class y that discussion here either. It's just that instant CCs is something mandatory for melee pvp and as such it shouldn't be as bothering for us to use it.

[Deleted]

Right, Ferals. But cyclone has no cd at the least, which in my mind, makes it more powerful. Also it makes the target unable to move. Maybe feral is in need of a small CC buff as well, but you cant just say that one class being in a similar spot makes it okay that 4 others are not.
Also there aren't really ways to counter blind or intimidating shout, are there? They are both instant cast and have a little range also (IS having quite lower range, but being aoe which more than makes up for that).
Hex isn't nearly as powerful as you make it out to be. It has lots of drawbacks such as the effect itself, the rather long cd (which, by itself is normal for a melee CC), and the cast time (which, for a melee, is not normal). It doesn't need the drawback of having to stack a rng based, requiring 5 stacks buff that requires constant melee contact, time and luck to make it instant.

Sap, Blind, Intimidating Shout, Paladins' new ability blinding light. None of these have as high a range, but powerfulness is not limited to only that, obviously.
Melee CCs imo seem to be balanced around stuff like the actual effect it provides, wether it is aoe, requires stealth or whatever.
The one common thing melee CCs have in common (or are supposed to have in common at the least) is that they should be instant.
The very fact that the only two classes, that dont have their CC instant baseline have a spec specific baseline ability that makes those abilities instant. This should give us enough a hint that a class, requiring to stay in an enemies' face to stay useful should not be forced to stand still, hardcasting, if he's unlucky with procs.

Also a thing you forgot to mention is that feral's instant spells are triggered from 5cp finishers, which are very frequent and not in the least RNG. A feral runs his normal cp-builder/finisher agenda and within seconds unleashes a finisher with instant cyclone on top. If it is trinketed in a few additional seconds he'll unleash another cyclone.

If an enhance's hex is trinketed, not only is hex gone for 45 seconds, for him to use it in the first place he likely requires twice as much time as a feral would need.

And I dont want to build this into a class x has that and class y that discussion here either. It's just that instant CCs is something mandatory for melee pvp and as such it shouldn't be as bothering for us to use it.

Hex is easily viable to use casted, especially with 3 or 4 stacks of the buff. Note that the two melee classes with casted CCs are the two classes with ranged DPS specs. Its how we work, we use spells and have far better range than any other melee DPS. You can't ignore the ranged factor, its incredibly powerful. As for the CCs you listed, Sap requires Stealth and the target to not be in combat, Blind has an even longer cooldown than Hex and only a 15 yard range, Intimidating Shout has a long cooldown and requires 8 yard range, Blinding Light has the longest cooldown of them all and is 10 yards. You use the downside of Hex as its cooldown then list abilities with vastly longer cooldowns as better than it.

You can use it casted as well, without the downside of having to shapeshift like a Druid has. They have to Shapeshift back into cat form once they use the spell from Predatory Strikes. Im not argueing in any way that MW5-Hex is better than PS-Cyclone or PS-Root but they both have downsides. You're looking at the bad sides of Hex then completely ignoring the bad sides of other classes, and then your ignoring the good sides of Hex because they don't fit into what you think a melee should be.

[Arinnaya]

Hex is easily viable to use casted, especially with 3 or 4 stacks of the buff. Note that the two melee classes with casted CCs are the two classes with ranged DPS specs. Its how we work, we use spells and have far better range than any other melee DPS. You can't ignore the ranged factor, its incredibly powerful. As for the CCs you listed, Sap requires Stealth and the target to not be in combat, Blind has an even longer cooldown than Hex and only a 15 yard range, Intimidating Shout has a long cooldown and requires 8 yard range, Blinding Light has the longest cooldown of them all and is 10 yards. You use the downside of Hex as its cooldown then list abilities with vastly longer cooldowns as better than it.

You can use it casted as well, without the downside of having to shapeshift like a Druid has. They have to Shapeshift back into cat form once they use the spell from Predatory Strikes. Im not argueing in any way that MW5-Hex is better than PS-Cyclone or PS-Root but they both have downsides. You're looking at the bad sides of Hex then completely ignoring the bad sides of other classes, and then your ignoring the good sides of Hex because they don't fit into what you think a melee should be.

I'd rather have Hex OFF MW either way, would prefer hard-casting and using MW for damage or healing instead of having a "one-spell-fits-all-situation."

[Deleted]

I'd rather have Hex OFF MW either way, would prefer hard-casting and using MW for damage or healing instead of having a "one-spell-fits-all-situation."

Then use up your MW stacks and then cast Hex? I can't possibly see how having it on MW is bad. If you don't want to waste time using up your MW stacks first before using your Hex then that means your in a hurry to use Hex and thus having it on MW is a benefit.

[Omanley]

Feral's cyclone has no cooldown though. Our hex has. If your argument of "we share with dps caster" would work, hex would have no cooldown.
If you look at cyclone, fear and poly, all of which are dps caster cds and have a casttime and are ranged but no cd and all those abilities I listed as melee cd having a cooldown but no casttime, you should see the bigger picture. Feral's cyclone has NO cd, is ranged AND can be made instant very fast, making it overall MUCH more powerful than hex.

And yes those melee CC abilities I've listed have their respective drawbacks. These are however compensated with other advantages outside the casttime factor.
A sap has rather high range, you dont see it coming, it has no cd so a rogue at the beginning can use it several times and with shadow dance it can also be used in fights. Plus it is an ADDITIONAL CC to blind, not mentioning the multitude of stuns and poisons. I didn't list stuff like that because I didn't want to derail the thread though.


Another idea to make Hex "more in line" with overall competitiveness within melee CC would be a glyph/talent (I guess I'd be okay with it since our CC is not completely fucked if we decide to not glyph and talent for it, unlike with mobility.).
Glyph of Hex: When your Hex breaks (through damage, glyph dispells and similar stuff (works once every 2 minutes maybe)), your Hex cooldown will be refreshed and your next Hex will be instant cast.

A glyph like that would imo be interesting enough for me to consider it over Healing Storm, with neither of them being to strong for a glyph, nor being mandatory.

[Deleted]

Feral's cyclone has no cooldown though. Our hex has. If your argument of "we share with dps caster" would work, hex would have no cooldown.
If you look at cyclone, fear and poly, all of which are dps caster cds and have a casttime and are ranged but no cd and all those abilities I listed as melee cd having a cooldown but no casttime, you should see the bigger picture. Feral's cyclone has NO cd, is ranged AND can be made instant very fast, making it overall MUCH more powerful than hex.

And yes those melee CC abilities I've listed have their respective drawbacks. These are however compensated with other advantages outside the casttime factor.
A sap has rather high range, you dont see it coming, it has no cd so a rogue at the beginning can use it several times and with shadow dance it can also be used in fights. Plus it is an ADDITIONAL CC to blind, not mentioning the multitude of stuns and poisons. I didn't list stuff like that because I didn't want to derail the thread though.


Another idea to make Hex "more in line" with overall competitiveness within melee CC would be a glyph/talent (I guess I'd be okay with it since our CC is not completely fucked if we decide to not glyph and talent for it, unlike with mobility.).
Glyph of Hex: When your Hex breaks (through damage, glyph dispells and similar stuff (works once every 2 minutes maybe)), your Hex cooldown will be refreshed and your next Hex will be instant cast.

A glyph like that would imo be interesting enough for me to consider it over Healing Storm, with none of either of them being to strong for a glyph, nor being mandatory.

As long as the Glyph had an internal cooldown of 2 minutes or more like you've said, I could see that being balanced and an interesting choice. As for Sap, if you get sapped past the start of the game, its 100% your teams fault. You've not only let the rogue restealth, you've gone out of combat at the same time. And if you're going to take into account the control other ranged DPS have, then - as is always said - you have to STOP doing one to one comparisons. You completely ignore our other abilities and complain one ability (Hex in this case) is not as good as some other ability, or some other range of abilities.

[Recom]

I'd like to give my 2c on the talents. IMO, most talents are fine, they may need a few tweaks to balance them but overall they seem fine but some talents clearly favors one spec over the other which make them cookie-cutter (except maybe on rare occasions).

Tier 1 (Survivability) seems fine, they all have a different use for a different situation and that's good. Nature's Guardian and Bulwark Totem may need a small tweak but we can't say for sure now.

Tier 2 (CC) again they all serve different purposes and I can see them all being useful at some point, even in PVE.

Tier 3 (Totem management) IMO this tier is flawed and need a rework, here' why :
- Call of the Elements is almost exclusively useful to Resto, Enhan and Ele can only refresh utility totem which they may not need (in PVE) while Resto can refresh SLT/MTT. It's a little better if you take HTT.
- Totemic Restoration may be useful in PVP but is close to useless in PVE, I tried dropping SLT and destroying it instantly with Totemic Recall, the cd only lowers by 30sec or so so CotE is vastly superior (in PVE).
- Totemic Projection is fine, it will be useful here and there and you can take it for trash mobs.
All in all only CotE and Totemic Restoration need a little work : make CotE worth taking for DPS specs and either increase the cooldown reduction of Totemic Restoration or scrap it completely.

Tier 4 (Output) is fine, maths about it are tricky and interesting and they all are useful at some point.
For resto though Echo of the Elements is borderline useless, it's unreliable and not smart so I don't see any good shaman taking it except for tank healing.

Tier 5 (Healing) this tier also needs a little work.
For Resto, they all provide a different utility and none is clearly better (one will be beter on 1 boss but clearly inferior on the next boss so that's fine). That said, HTT scales with Purification and is refreshed by CotE so the combination of the 2 makes it so much stronger than it's supposed to that it screams "TAKE ME"...
For DPS specs :
- Conductivity will most likely be avoided since you don't want to lose the gcd to drop HR and it only procs on LB
- HTT is fine even though it costs a gcd
- Ancestral Guidance seems to be the best choice : it doesn't cost a gcd, it scales with damage modifier and it's amazing on AoE (in Ele) . Honestly it may need a slight nerf, we'll see in the end of beta when numbers are tweaked.
In PVP (I'm no expert) :
- HTT will most likely be destroyed by good opponents and is very effective when healing 5 people or more (so not in 2s and 3s)
- Conductivity : I can't see a situation where you would want to take that talent, you're most likely not gonna stay in the rain and your allies even less, it seems as unreliable as it gets.
- Ancestral Guidance is, again, most likely the best choice because : no gcd, only a 2 min CD and smart heal.

Tier 6 (DPS) we'll see.

Overall our talents are fine but there are some cases where there is a clear winner or a clear loser and I hope they fix it somehow.

[Omanley]

if you get sapped past the start of the game, its 100% your teams fault. You've not only let the rogue restealth, you've gone out of combat at the same time. And if you're going to take into account the control other ranged DPS have, then - as is always said - you have to STOP doing one to one comparisons. You completely ignore our other abilities and complain one ability (Hex in this case) is not as good as some other ability, or some other range of abilities.

You're right about sap, I missed the "target has to be out of combat part". Still it is an additional CC, and while shamans have snares/roots and similar stuff additionally to the "takes control of enemy" CC (which ironically hex technically isn't even part of), rogues are not limited to Blind/Sap, but also have snares, stuns, silences(garrote) and incapacitating abilities.
The basic question is: "Would enh be OP if Hex would be instant for them w/o MSW?" I dont think so.
Hard casting is not for melees, and having to wait for stacks for an ability to be instant which is instant for others filling the same role is simply out of place.
No we wont "suck" because of it, but it would be a very nice quality of life buff, similar to allowing enh/ele to benefit from ES without sacrificing their shields, which was just like MSW/Hex for enh, a unecessary downside only shamans have/had.

glad you agreed on my glyph suggestion though.

edit: Ancient Swiftness is among those really boring talents in my opinion. Leaving enh out of the picture, which is atm 100% always in all cases going EoE, A haste cooldown seems much better than a passive effect for tight pvp situations and heavy dps phases in pve as well.
Passive stat bonuses are, afair the thing blizz wanted to ablish, but the instant cast once minute doesn't seem enticing either.

Suggestion: Ancient Swiftness:
Passive: Turns your Astral Recall, Far Sight, Hex, Ghostwolf (less bothered by snares baseline like wotlk/cata, base cast time 1-2 sec) and Healing Rain abilities into instant casts.
Active: (1-2 min cd) Shields a friendly target for 15% of the shamans' life (Allies, pets, or, most importantly, TOTEMS (old SCT).
Would be almost exclusively pvp though, but better than mostly bypassed in both situations.

[Deleted]

You're right about sap, I missed the "target has to be out of combat part". Still it is an additional CC, and while shamans have snares/roots and similar stuff additionally to the "takes control of enemy" CC (which ironically hex technically isn't even part of), rogues are not limited to Blind/Sap, but also have snares, stuns, silences(garrote) and incapacitating abilities.
The basic question is: "Would enh be OP if Hex would be instant for them w/o MSW?" I dont think so.
Hard casting is not for melees, and having to wait for stacks for an ability to be instant which is instant for others filling the same role is simply out of place.
No we wont "suck" because of it, but it would be a very nice quality of life buff, similar to allowing enh/ele to benefit from ES without sacrificing their shields, which was just like MSW/Hex for enh, a unecessary downside only shamans have/had.

glad you agreed on my glyph suggestion though.

I dont see why Hard casting is so bad for a melee. Its just something we have thats better than any melee has. Obviously its not optimal to hard cast abilities, but if we can hard cast stuff at the benefit of being able to do things from range, then thats a great trade off. We can hard cast heals if we need, we can hard cast our biggest CC, and we can hard cast damage spells from range if we need to finish someone off.

And it wouldn't just be a quality of life buff, it would be a full scale buff. If you have done any high level PvP, you will see that Enhance Shaman in high end rating hard cast Hex all the time so that they can use their MW5 stacks of GHW. If they could do that but get instant Hex too that would not just be a Quality of Life buff but a buff in general, an on demand, always instant ranged 8 second CC. Even Druids have to at least get the proc before they can use it. Its not that it would make Enhance overpowered, its that its an un-needed buff. The ability to use Hex hard casted or use up your stacks in exchange for making it instant is another interesting choice when playing Enhance in a PvP setting, and removing that just so that Enhance can fit into your view of what a melee "should be" seems counterproductive for the direction Mists is going, they want to give more meaningfull choices and this would just remove one of the biggest PvP Enhance has.

[Deleted]

At risk of being scolded for 'back seat Moderating' once again...

Might I humbly suggest that a new thread is made so that we have one thread discussing how changes might affect PvP and another about how changes might affect PvE.

Coming from my purely PvE background I'm finding the endless walls of text, about snares/mobility/frostbrand/ defensive cooldowns to be entirely irrelevant to my interests. I'm quite certain that a great many PvP only players are coming here and being bored stupid by the long discussions about water shield changes, chain heal glyphs etc.

Most of the other MMO-Champion class forums have split their MoP changes thread in some manner, be it by spec or by gameplay style, I find it a great deal more user friendly than the current 77 page comment swallowing monster that is this thread.

[Endus]

I dont see why Hard casting is so bad for a melee. Its just something we have thats better than any melee has. Obviously its not optimal to hard cast abilities, but if we can hard cast stuff at the benefit of being able to do things from range, then thats a great trade off. We can hard cast heals if we need, we can hard cast our biggest CC, and we can hard cast damage spells from range if we need to finish someone off.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again; Enhancement is not a pure melee. It's a meleecaster. Melee is important, and they try and make its spellcasting mesh well with weapon swinging (via instant casts), but it's still, to a significant degree, a caster.

That's an advantage. It gives Enhancement options, like kiting and shooting, that most melee simply don't have. It means you can pop SWG when you have to run out from the boss and chain-cast LBs, rather than just holding DPS other than a single GCD like most melee do. It means a lot of your damage, in PvP, isn't mitigated by Armor. All these are advantages. Being able to hard-cast is not an issue whatsoever, and I don't see any relevance to complaining that you "have" to hard-cast. If you "have" to hard-cast, it's because doing so is better than not doing so. Meaning your options are most likely "hard-cast" or "twiddle your thumbs like most melee would have to in that situation". Those times when you hard-cast are where you're seeing that option being an advantage.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 09:38 AM ----------

At risk of being scolded for 'back seat Moderating' once again...

Might I humbly suggest that a new thread is made so that we have one thread discussing how changes might affect PvP and another about how changes might affect PvE.

Coming from my purely PvE background I'm finding the endless walls of text, about snares/mobility/frostbrand/ defensive cooldowns to be entirely irrelevant to my interests. I'm quite certain that a great many PvP only players are coming here and being bored stupid by the long discussions about water shield changes, chain heal glyphs etc.

Most of the other MMO-Champion class forums have split their MoP changes thread in some manner, be it by spec or by gameplay style, I find it a great deal more user friendly than the current 77 page monster that is this thread.

If someone wanted to start such a thread, I wouldn't stop them, but this thread is 77 pages because most of the community likes it. It was originally started just to localize the initial glut of posting right after the beta client was available, all in one place, since otherwise we'd have had 15 different threads on basically the same stuff. When I started it up, I didn't expect it to last this long, to be honest. That's why I've got the sticky with the collected Beta changes, separate from this thread; I expected this one to die out. But, people are still using it, so I don't see any reason to change it or lock it.

Anyone who does want to split off from the discussion, though, try and narrow the subject. Looking at the first page, we've got a thread on whether Resto needs a survival CD in MoP, and another on T14 set bonuses; those are fine. If you just try and start a thread titled "PvP Changes in MoP", that's a bit too broad and would just get merged back in, but if you're talking about something more specific, it'll be fine; spec-specific PvP threads would be okay, for instance.

Do note that this thread isn't stickied or referenced anywhere. It's still here at 77 pages because everyone keeps using it. That's no different than any other thread.

[rdaccord]

The ability to use Hex hard casted or use up your stacks in exchange for making it instant is another interesting choice when playing Enhance in a PvP setting, and removing that just so that Enhance can fit into your view of what a melee "should be" seems counterproductive for the direction Mists is going, they want to give more meaningfull choices and this would just remove one of the biggest PvP Enhance has.

Generally when I pvp all my MSW are saved for GHW, but the option to hex with 3+ msw stacks to get the quick or instant hex off and then 2 GHW is nice. I would rather keep our options as they are instead of getting an instant cast which might alter the duration or cd.

ps. I really like your signature....I have one of those silly shiny staffs, and i think my favorite part of it is the mount. I wonder if some time in MOP they will remove having to have the staff equipped to change into the dragon?

[Teriz]

If you'd even bothered to log in to check, you'd know that all of this was false.

When NG procs, you gain 25% max health, and the same amount of current health. I even logged in myself to double check to be absolutely sure; my pre-made level 85 shaman has 129k health. I let a quillrat bit him in the arse, I dipped below ~39k health, NG procced; that's the 30% mark. I went up to a little over 160k max health, and up to a little over 70k current health. The same amount. If it worked like you claimed, I'd have only gone up to about 50k health.

All you had to do was check. Or even ask someone else to check, if you don't have beta access. Anyone bothering to check would've seen what I just took 2 minutes to verify.

If what you say is true, I stand corrected on NG. However that doesn't negate the issue of other talents in the tree that are weak, ridiculously situational, or don't deserve to be talents because they benefit one spec way more than another.

[Tharkash]

Thought I'd chime in on the CC debate.. Unless they changed it in a recent build, Paladins have Repentance on NO cooldown (as a talent), but with a 1.5 sec cast time and breaks on any damage that's not Censure. I always considered paladins to be the shaman analog since vanilla (this distinction has broken down quite a bit since then though) so I could see Hex going to no CD seeing as it doesn't prevent movement, but doesn't break immediately on damage. Ele/resto could really use the no CD, but as stated in this thread already, enhance can instant cast it with maelstrom weapon, so they'd prolly still need a CD. That or remove it from maelstorm all together to leave it casted.

[Deleted]

If what you say is true, I stand corrected on NG. However that doesn't negate the issue of other talents in the tree that are weak, ridiculously situational, or don't deserve to be talents because they benefit one spec way more than another.

All classes have situational tiers, thats the point of them, very few tiers are pure throughput, and every single Hybrid class has talents that benefit one spec more than another. For example Priests, Body and Soul vastly benefits Disc more than Holy, for Paladins their level 60 talents are like our healer tier talents in that they all benefit tanks (and healers) far more than Ret. Its how Hybrid talent trees work. We are hybrid classes so we have trees that give you better performance as a DPS when offhealing or when DPSing when your a healer (ect ect)

[Teriz]

All classes have situational tiers, thats the point of them, very few tiers are pure throughput, and every single Hybrid class has talents that benefit one spec more than another. For example Priests, Body and Soul vastly benefits Disc more than Holy, for Paladins their level 60 talents are like our healer tier talents in that they all benefit tanks (and healers) far more than Ret. Its how Hybrid talent trees work. We are hybrid classes so we have trees that give you better performance as a DPS when offhealing or when DPSing when your a healer (ect ect)

The paladin tier 60 talents deal with the reduction, and resetting of paladin defensive CDs. How could a ret paladin not find that useful? Every priest uses PW: shield, so body and soul would be useful for any priest to shield themselves and get out of sticky situations.

Compare that to our healing tier as a dps shaman. Why in the world would any dps shaman pick anything but ancestral guidance? Especially given its synchronous relationship with ascension. It's a no brained really. Also that tier overwhelmingly benefits resto shaman almost to the point that it is detrimental to dps shaman. Priests and paladins aren't in the same boat. Their talents are much better thought out frankly.

[Deleted]

The paladin tier 60 talents deal with the reduction, and resetting of paladin defensive CDs.
...
Also that tier overwhelmingly benefits resto shaman almost to the point that it is detrimental to dps shaman. Priests and paladins aren't in the same boat. Their talents are much better thought out frankly.

Wheras we have a tier that resets all manner of cooldowns (totems), reduces cooldown duration, or allows us to make more effective use of them. I'm afraid I fail to see your point about the paladin and priest tiers.

Talents are not going to be detrimental to dps, if class X doesn't have as many damage enhancing talents as class Y then class X will simply have a higher potential dps without talents than class Y would.

The only viable complaints that can be made about talent trees at this point are:

A) One talent vastly outstrips others of that tier in the majority of situations. (No PvP/PvE does not count in this case,)
B)No-one is able to think of a single situation where activating a talent is of benefit to the character personally or to the group as a whole.

Neither of these scenarios exist so far as I'm aware.

[Cakala]

I can foresee fights where I would take conductivity as enhance in DS.
Perhaps: Late burn phases where raid damage was high. Using a haste CD. Casting LBs every other CD would be useful with Conductivity. Heroic Ultraxion pre-nerf sounds like a decent fit ( please tell me I was not the only enhance shaman using Healing Rain with MW5 stacks on this fight ). Sure it worked very well with MW stacks rolling in with T13 set bonuses, but either way, the talent would be useful in situations which meets the goal of Blizzard. I am confident it will be of use in MoP.

It's a no brained really.

I disagree with this, I hope I do not get infracted for this, but I do have a brain.

[Deleted]

Wheras we have a tier that resets all manner of cooldowns (totems), reduces cooldown duration, or allows us to make more effective use of them. I'm afraid I fail to see your point about the paladin and priest tiers.

Talents are not going to be detrimental to dps, if class X doesn't have as many damage enhancing talents as class Y then class X will simply have a higher potential dps without talents than class Y would.

The only viable complaints that can be made about talent trees at this point are:

A) One talent vastly outstrips others of that tier in the majority of situations. (No PvP/PvE does not count in this case,)
B)No-one is able to think of a single situation where activating a talent is of benefit to the character personally or to the group as a whole.

Neither of these scenarios exist so far as I'm aware.

The only point I would agree with Teriz on is Conductivity for DPS. Its not particularly useful for DPS unless you are on a very hard to heal fight but you need to meet some kind of DPS timer. Ultraxion HC pre-nerf comes to mind. That sort of fight Conductivity would have been phenominal on. Saying however that only Ancestral Guidance would be taken is just a lie. Healing Tide Totem may well heal enough to be worth it. Likely it will heal more than Ancestral Guidance does and more to the point it heals multiple people whilst Ancestral Guidance only heals one at a time (unless you're AoEing, in which case if theres AoE damage with AoE healing needed then yes you would take AG, but thats the whole point).

And in reference to Teriz, to say ANY talent is in ANY way detrimental to a DPS is just a lie. If your raid needs you to help heal, and you have the ability to do that, then thats a good thing not a bad thing. Do DPS druids complain that they have Tranquility so may lose DPS if they are asked to use it? Do Shadow Priests complain about Hymn of Hope or Divine Hymn? Absolutely not.

[Deleted]

The only point I would agree with Teriz on is Conductivity for DPS.

Aye conductivity is a weird one, while the other two are fire and forget cooldown based things conductivity can potentially be up for an entire fight and requires maintenance every 10 seconds. Not sure where they're going with it but I'm thinking there might be a change before it hits live.

It does seem to be the only talent where using it to the fullest would hurt dps, however it's got by far the highest potential healing done over the course of a standard boss fight so perhaps that's intentional?