Very Quick Beta Impressions from a Demo Lock

[Phoenexis]

See, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to yours.

But my opinion beyond "flavor" relates to play-ability and performance/balance in raids (and, for that matter, PvP but I'm not an expert there). It relates to making this a fun spec to *play* not just to look at. Yours relates just to "flavor" (which is highly debatable, and arguably not really existent outside of performance) and Blizzard listening to opinions like yours (based on subjective looks, and not any actuality) has made this class consistently unbalanced and/or underperforming and become the least-played spec (and a horrible spec), by a lot. Blizzard has now changed around to listening to the opinion of those who share mine, people who play top-end and people who play casually, 99% of people posting. Hopefully they've realized listening to the 1% makes 99% ditch the class.

[edit]

Right now, I'm watching TankSpot Lore's stream. It seems like 99% of all players (literally) are in love with the lock changes, I've never seen more "re-rolling warlock" or "dusting my old lock off" posts/threads than ever before, the forums, community, and media, large-scale (streamers/fansites) and small-scale (guildmates, friends, casuals), are ALL excited.

It then seems like there's a rather noisy/small minority, not just directed at you, that are whining, complaining, naysaying, Luddites determined to make our spec worse, clunkier, and under-performing, with 3 specs worse than a single DPS spec on other classes.

At least they all serve one purpose: proof of Blizzard's idiocy, if they actually listen to that.

It saddens me to see you take such an offensive posture on this, but well, what can we do? Demonology's problem has never been MC procs just so you know. They've ben around since WotlK when SF was in there too. So no, removing MC isn't going to make Demonology a better spec, especially not in PvP where it is very helpful, seeing as the spec's gimp is slow casts and bad mobility.

Although I'm no expert, I can say that Demonology's problem has been lining it up with Demon Soul and MWC, Pet twisting for best use of Demon Soul, bad multi-dotting, heavy gaps between Meta and normal form and divided damage.
So no, removing Immolate and MC isn't the best thing that's ever happened, especially when you consider losing a keybind for better management great. The new flavor that they're giving to Demonology is nice, but all I'm saying is that maybe it should have another DoT (Immolate) and something RNG related like MC.

It's not a popular spec because it's not that easy, and Blizzard are actually dumbing down the "rotation" for all specs, which will undeniably take some fun out of it.

So yes, you might be a hardcore raider, but maybe you should be more open-minded and listen some more before talking trash.

Changes made for Demonology are exciting because of the new look it's given, not the actual rotation. I've yet to see someone say "Oh my God, this new DPS cycle is so amazing!". All I've seen is "Demo tank! WOW! Fel Flame purple lazers, nice!". They're good changes, but nobody on beta has talked about how the spec performs on encounters yet.

Would you truly enjoy managing resources as a Warlock? If I wanted to do that I'd play a mage.

[Jessicka]

If you think the rotation is going to be still great, I suggest you take a look at this. Sure, it's with the tanking glyph but just take a look at how much '1' spam there is there. Also note how melee swings are refereshing the Corruption timer.

[Inactivity]

Although I'm no expert, I can say that Demonology's problem has been lining it up with Demon Soul and MWC, Pet twisting for best use of Demon Soul, bad multi-dotting, heavy gaps between Meta and normal form and divided damage.

You're somewhat there. Impending Doom usually will give you a 2 minute Meta. Multi-dotting is bad compared to our other specs but honestly not completely terrible. Ramp-up can be somewhat significant without Meta off the get-go. Pet-twisting isn't really necessary anymore, you pretty much just run with felhunter (its theoretically a small gain with MWC, but having to 4-sec hard-cast will usually make you lose more than the *very small* DPS you'd gain).[/quote]

So no, removing Immolate and MC isn't the best thing that's ever happened, especially when you consider losing a keybind for better management great. The new flavor that they're giving to Demonology is nice, but all I'm saying is that maybe it should have another DoT (Immolate) and something RNG related like MC.

We're not the only ones getting streamlined. Warriors are losing stance-dancing, because its clunky. Same goes with other specs. If you play even PvP competitively, which you say you do, you would know the value of keybinds. I actively use over 20 (for PvE alone) and am completely out of keyboard space, I have many shift- and control- binds. Yes, this would help if I spent $80 on a Naga, which I guess you're suggesting to me "should" be mandatory.

Am I whooping about losing a keybind? No, I'm whooping about the changes as a whole where I can potentially get to lose many keybinds. But obviously losing 1 with absolutely no other performance, balance, or playstyle changes is great.

It's not a popular spec because it's not that easy, and Blizzard are actually dumbing down the "rotation" for all specs, which will undeniably take some fun out of it. So yes, you might be a hardcore raider, but maybe you should be more open-minded and listen some more before talking trash.

There's a difference between "dumbing down" and "making it not as clunky." Maybe you should know what you are talking about before suggesting anti-QoL changes.

They're good changes, but nobody on beta has talked about how the spec performs on encounters yet.

Obviously not, the numbers aren't balanced on beta.

Would you truly enjoy managing resources as a Warlock? If I wanted to do that I'd play a mage.

I'd enjoy it more than what the class is now. It's the first and only main I've had, but DS has honestly pushed me to the point where if they kept it up, I was going to main-switch to a priest, druid, or DK.

---------- Post added 2012-03-24 at 02:18 PM ----------

If you think the rotation is going to be still great, I suggest you take a look at this. Sure, it's with the tanking glyph but just take a look at how much '1' spam there is there.

It's the tank glyph.
You want to know what I do on my Death Knight? LOLDS / LOLRS.
Warrior's rotation? DEVASTATE, DEVASTATE, DEVASTATE, SHIELD SLAM.
Druid? LACERATE, LACERATE, MANGLE, THRASH.
Paladin? CS X CS X CS SOTR CS X CS X CS SOTR.

Yeah... try making a tank spec have a full out DPS rotation... on top of staying alive, managing CD's (which this clicker clearly doesn't do or have to do on the dummy) and moving around/positioning (do we have a dummy-moving glyph too?!).

Trying to compare a tanking rotation to a DPS one... good try.

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I'm sorry, I agree with some of your points about DPS, about perhaps making four specs, and being cautionary to balance and what challenges Blizzard may have, and that we need to stay tuned.

But I do like how the naysayers are using progressively weaker and increasingly desperate/feeble arguments as to why we should still be "pure" and gimp DPS.

[Jessicka]

Yeah... try making a tank spec have a full out DPS rotation... on top of staying alive, managing CD's (which this clicker clearly doesn't do on the dummy) and moving around/positioning (do we have a dummy-moving glyph too?!).

Trying to compare a tanking rotation to a DPS one... good try. I do like how the naysayers are using weaker and weaker arguments though, as to why we should still be gimp.

That's the problem, he's using all the abilities that DPS is left with. The only difference is that Meta doesn't drop and so he doesn't switch to SB to replace DS (Which would still be bound to 1 anyway).

[Phoenexis]

Well, Jessicka proves my point, thank you!
Also, why is always about the numbers? By your logic, spamming 1 button during a whole encounter makes a spec's gameplay good. And Demo is clunky because of pet twisting and cd aligning, not Immolate and MC procs.

Also, now that I think of it, the new Demo model will make it even more clunky in PvP: Meta uptime will be insignificant since you will always be trained and won't be able to generate enough DF, you'll be extremely dependant on Meta to perform properly since CC is going to get worse and you'll need Carrion Swarm for the knock-back, not to mention that HoG will only be generated every 15 secs and will have a 2.5 sec delay, which is enough for anybody with half a brain to move.

So unless you're able to butt-rape everything during Metamorphosis, which will be a pain to gain, you're going to have a very hard time.

[Inactivity]

Hmmm. You've changed my mind somewhat :P

I guess we could go back to a mad old suggestion (long before DS was out) where Shadow Bolt would be "Shadow Cleave" (aka what it is now), and Incinerate would become "Fire Cleave."

How about keeping it as is, but re-instating Immolate (not incinerate) in the rotation. It would be a casted DoT similar to what it is in its current incarnation. In Metamorphosis, it will become a sort of "Fiery Slash" (give it a creative name) that will deal moderate damage as well as leave short a Fire DoT (think of a druid's Thrash).

As a bonus for flavor, either Demonic Slash or our new "Fiery Slash" would have a cleave effect. Perhaps have Fiery Slash attach a short Fire DoT dealing damage to nearby enemies at half effectiveness (thinking of Pestilence/Thrash again).

Not only would DPS have a more interesting rotation, but we would have a new AoE aggro tool as well for tanking form.

[Deleted]

It is indeed the coolest thing ever.

... so... beautiful...

[Inactivity]

Well, Jessicka proves my point, thank you!
Also, why is always about the numbers? By your logic, spamming 1 button during a whole encounter makes a spec's gameplay good. And Demo is clunky because of pet twisting and cd aligning, not Immolate and MC procs.

By your logic, warlocks are in a good state. This already makes you sound like you don't know much of what you're posting, but we'll show it.

Demo is clunky because of multiple reasons, three fillers doesn't help and does nothing to make the spec "better."

Pet twisting and CD alignment, as I mentioned, are really non-issues.

However, seeing as you've PvE-wise your lock is just 5/8, either you don't care about PvE so you don't know about it, or you aren't very good so you don't know about it.

Since people who aren't very good still get more than 5/8, I'll go with the former. However, since I'm really talking PvE since I don't PvP competitively much (and definitely don't as Demo) it's not really my realm.

[edit]

Removed my wall of crap about PvP since it isn't a viable spec now and won't be in MOP.
Despite that, it will be less clunky in beta/MOP stage than it i

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Phew, btw, good job with bouncing off someone else's post.

With this subject, I actually am considering a lot of criticism I'm hearing, but it does irk me hearing someone who doesn't even know the spec trying to tell me how its gonna be "worse" and trying to make cases for it staying in the pits that it is now.

[Phoenexis]

Hmmm. You've changed my mind somewhat :P

I guess we could go back to a mad old suggestion (long before DS was out) where Shadow Bolt would be "Shadow Cleave" (aka what it is now), and Incinerate would become "Fire Cleave."

How about keeping it as is, but re-instating Immolate (not incinerate) in the rotation. It would be a casted DoT similar to what it is in its current incarnation. In Metamorphosis, it will become a sort of "Fiery Slash" (give it a creative name) that will deal moderate damage as well as leave short a Fire DoT (think of a druid's Thrash).

As a bonus for flavor, either Demonic Slash or our new "Fiery Slash" would have a cleave effect. Perhaps have Fiery Slash attach a short Fire DoT dealing damage to nearby enemies at half effectiveness (thinking of Pestilence/Thrash again).

Not only would DPS have a more interesting rotation, but we would have a new AoE aggro tool as well for tanking form.

I would love that. It would reduce the amount of SB spamming and make Demonology much more viable in multidotting if this Fire Cleave would Spread Immolate.

[Inactivity]

I would love that. It would reduce the amount of SB spamming and make Demonology much more viable in multidotting if this Fire Cleave would Spread Immolate.

Calming down a bit (I post on all-nighters), another thing is that it looks how Metamorphosis interacts with Demonic Fury is a bit strange in DPS form. You can always start in it but gaining it requires some effort (DoTs at least). I still don't see this becoming viable in PvP.

Fire Cleave as I thought of it would spread the DoTs at 50% just like most tank "cleaves" and perhaps 100% as DPS. This means as DPS you would basically get a second "Shadowflame" during Meta form.

[Phoenexis]

By your logic, warlocks are in a good state. This already makes you sound like you don't know much of what you're posting, but we'll show it.

Demo is clunky because of multiple reasons, three fillers doesn't help and does nothing to make the spec "better."

Pet twisting and CD alignment, as I mentioned, are really non-issues.

However, seeing as you've PvE-wise your lock is just 5/8, either you don't care about PvE so you don't know about it, or you aren't very good so you don't know about it.

Since people who aren't very good still get more than 5/8, I'll go with the former. However, since I'm really talking PvE since I don't PvP competitively much (and definitely don't as Demo) it's not really my realm.

[edit]

Removed my wall of crap about PvP since it isn't a viable spec now and won't be in MOP.
Despite that, it will be less clunky in beta/MOP stage than it i

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Phew, btw, good job with bouncing off someone else's post.

With this subject, I actually am considering a lot of criticism I'm hearing, but it does irk me hearing someone who doesn't even know the spec trying to tell me how its gonna be "worse" and trying to make cases for it staying in the pits that it is now.

I'm not 5/8, I'm 8/8 normal :/ And I haven't had the chance to PvE that much, which is why I stick to PvP mainly. Also, why would you say that Demo is clunky? Because of MC and Immolate? I really think it's the fact that you have to try to align meta with DS *which makes Impending Doom stupid*, stack buffs for Doomguard and Pet Twist with MWC. There is nothing clunky about using a spell when you gain a certain buff.

---------- Post added 2012-03-24 at 03:04 PM ----------

You can always start in it but gaining it requires some effort

Which is why it'll make the spec even worse in PvP, unless Meta is ridiculously OP.

[Inactivity]

Main reason Demo can be clunky is due to the spike DPS (meaning you can get bad spikes which create big losses), due to the incredible amount of keybinds needed for the spec (notice the guy is clicking and is hardly optimal in the beta video - I can spam shadow bolt in live, just like he was spamming "1" but even as is it doesn't mean he's optimal), and due to cast-time/movement penalties.

Destruction has empowered imp procs, a relatively quick Immolate, Conflagrate, DoTs. Affliction just has super-fast casts and lots of Nightfall procs. Demonology has fel flame, the casts are generally too slow to really use efficiently even when stutter-stepping. Demonology is great on Ultraxion even with the HoG bug, because there's no movement, whatsoever.

On execute (Decimation) you don't gain much because you just GCD cap out often especially if you lust at execute.

You don't need to pet twist, and doomguard is clunky but you use it once (maybe 2, rarely 3) times in a fight. You don't need to pet twist (you can if its convenient, usually its not) and the DPS difference between a godly-done pet twist and not twisting at all is minimal. You don't need pet twist outside MWC.

Impending Doom can be terrible on some fights (hagara comes to mind) but usually you will have at least a 2 minute meta.

I don't think incinerate and MC is all that clunky, but it doesn't help having more keybinds for no reason at all. Most classes only use one filler, and that's because its filler. As a DPS class you should rarely be filling anyway, which is why I suggested bringing back Immolate and "Fiery Slash." Even as affliction with a single filler (shadow bolt) a lot of my casts are spent using DoTs. Having two fillers is actually less interesting, a waste of keybind space, and either gimp or a loss of better abilities.

While I'm holding out because "1-spam" wasn't optimal at all, and because I don't know whats in store - maybe more abilities? - I wouldn't mind bringing back just Immolate. Perhaps refresh it with HoG as well, give us a reason to actually use it aside from fury fodder.

If you have the oh-so-interesting abilities, oh-so-interesting cooldowns, and oh-so-interesting double filler, you get a bad class. In fact, why not just have interesting abilities like we do now?

[Deleted]

I Like how they make a super cool glyph for a spell that will rarely be used :>

[casuallyhardcore]

The new animations look really cool, I don't even play a lock but I think its about time they had some love, they were put on the back burner it seems since their OP days in BC.

[Phoenexis]

Exactly. Demo is clunky because of that slow Shadowbolt. What was good about MC is that it would make your filler faster. The spec is too reliant on its filler in its current state. Back in WotLK I remember us being more reliant on our execute.

[xskarma]

Old ISF was fine, too much QQ when everyone had 10 % haste. Also Demo with three fillers is great..... decision, reactivity, it's quite complex and entertaining.

MoP.....

Destruction : MoP makes me feel like an Arcane Mage

Demonology : MoP makes me feel like an alpha test for the next tanking heroic class and also 90 % of the feedback will be about this tanking thing... Normal rotation is too dumb.

Affliction : "" I want to use Haunt but.... you know the soulshards regen is worst than the old isf, worst than the haste abuse à la 3.3. ""

Beta is beta....... fine but for locks it's sound like an Alpha's alpha. Demons summoning lenght is still an aberration, Demons management is still unintelligent.

Phoenexis, you are saying that HoG is slow....... Demo can't be your main spec...

Demo isn't clunky, all the crap is from devs working once a month and making bad decision once, every 6 months. 80 % of the MoP modifications, additions are lame and useless. Aka time and money allowed for useless glyph... Who is casting shadowbolt nao ?

It tastes like a copy/paste thread from Cata's beta.

You make it sound like you are in the beta amd have thouroughly tested all the changes for yourself and found them lacking, if so, well, it's still beta and things will change with the feedback they get from everyone in the beta.

If you are, as I suspect, NOT in the beta, then just chill out and get in to it first and check things out, and try playing in a few dungeons with the changes to see if you like or dislike it.

[Count Zero]

Aka time and money allowed for useless glyph... Who is casting shadowbolt nao ?

ITT: "I won't use it" means "No one will use it"

/facepalm

[Neinball]

After tanking a few instances and then soloing a few instance I have to caution everyone. Don't bother forming an opinions about the class just yet. With or without the tanking glyph demo is just broken atm. All the damages values are extreme and you barely taken any dmg as a tank, I'll be really excited to see where it goes from here but atm I just know everything will be changed from how it is now.

[Raxingar]

Damn, I was really looking foward to the new destro stuff, but GOD DAMN DEMO IS AWESOMESAUCE NOW!!!

[Phoenexis]

Did I say HoG? Sorry, force of habit. It's just that damn Shadowbolt that's quite slow :/ HoG is actually pretty fast.

But yeah I agree with Paraclef. It feels like they're trying to base us on different specs (especially Destro and Affli).