Is our Lootsystem unfair ?!?

[Oogly]

To me it sounds like you were doing epgp wrong if you felt it would be impossible for new players to "catch up".

As for whether you reset or not that was your guildleaderships choice.

Personally I would have kept EPGP the same IF and its a BIG IF, you had epgp setup correctly in the first place to cover all bases from longstanding members to new trailists so that everyone feels inclusive within the rules structure you set out.

When I used to run my guild before I quit WoW I set out our EPGP to be fair to all. The minimum EP threshold was set to a level where new trialists would have to attend several full raids before they were eligible pointswise to have their priority counted with the other longstanding members. This didnt stop them getting loot on our runs at all they just got items if no one else wanted them first. Additionally new trialists were told within the rules that they automatically had last priorty on dropped loot while they were under trial (in almost all cases this was a moot point as they generally completed their trial by the time they accrued enough EP to go above MinEP). MinimumGP and Decay% were set high enough to discourage EP hoarding and encourage members to grab upgrades when they were offered by boss drops. This of course did not stop some members saving a while for that one tier token drop they desperately wanted but in general most were happy to get upgrades as they came.

As for the point of giving current raiders 1-2 free epics before anyone else thats going to totally put off any new recruits and seems to be very poorly thought through.

[Deleted]

Well it seems like i should have been giving the core raiders just a bonus EP.
But also it seems like that some of you misunderstood : The Core Raiders have MASSIVE EPGP without a reset even with decay the new ones would only get about 1 item and then had to wait forever. We have been farming for some months already so there are just a few rly upgrades for them.

I did implement one member once back about 1-2 months ago. We also used epgp. Before the reset he was not able to get any HM items that were needed by any other core members. I think some of you think about too less EP but i am talking bout 1-3 Months worth of EP , as i said we were quite unlucky with dropps and some ppl did not spend ther EP for MONTHS !


Also did both of them get loot on the 2 Lockouts. One mage did join us wit ilvl 382 and left us yesterday with 394. The other did get a Heroic staff from a FIRSTKILL !

[Deleted]

if someone misses out on loot there's always a part of them that's upset, the crux of the issue is how the said person handles this, some people just cant accept and they will make all excuses under the sun.

[Deleted]

It really depends how good your guild is.

Let me explain:
If your guild is not good compared to other raiding options players have available (mainly PUGs but also other guilds) your loot system can drive trials away.
Why? Well it's obvious that instead of running with your guild (and waiting 3 to 4 lockouts on loot) they could just run in a PUG (that clears an equal ammount of bosses) and roll freely.

On the other hand it's very aggrivating to give loot to trials that never show up again afterwards.

That being said I don't view your loot system as "unfair". I think the main problem is that things like:
end of expansion, old content, easily puggable content and lfr are factors that drive people away from raiding.

Why commit to a guild and stick through the trial period (in which you don't receive loot) when instead you could just raid with another option. Obviously for the high end guilds this is less of a problem since they can clear content that is unavailable for the majority of players.

[glowpipe]

How about those who actualy is there to kill the boss just roll for the items they drop ?

[tangedyn]

Well it seems like i should have been giving the core raiders just a bonus EP.
But also it seems like that some of you misunderstood : The Core Raiders have MASSIVE EPGP without a reset even with decay the new ones would only get about 1 item and then had to wait forever. We have been farming for some months already so there are just a few rly upgrades for them.

Which is why I prefer a spend-all system. Suicide Kings is what we use for my raid. Trials simply get added to the bottom of the list and then they can start winning loot pretty quickly. If you don't like the idea of trials getting items before members in the first week, then lock them to the bottom and unlock them whenever you like, but once they are released to the list they won't be severely disadvantaged.

[Deleted]

Which is why I prefer a spend-all system. Suicide Kings is what we use for my raid. Trials simply get added to the bottom of the list and then they can start winning loot pretty quickly. If you don't like the idea of trials getting items before members in the first week, then lock them to the bottom and unlock them whenever you like, but once they are released to the list they won't be severely disadvantaged.

I take that but also its about the current system i like to know. Also PLZ when you post plz remember that both of them DID get MASSIVE loot. Its not that they were sitting there just help and recieved nothin.
ALL of the new Trials did get loot on the 2 lockouts just because when they joined there gear was not at top notch. There is just 1 Trial which i know who did not and the loot council will favour him next Lockout.

Also in our 10man Raid the Drops where RLY awfull. Like Wrath of the Unchaining just dropped ONCE since the first week.

[Oogly]

Well it seems like i should have been giving the core raiders just a bonus EP.
But also it seems like that some of you misunderstood : The Core Raiders have MASSIVE EPGP without a reset even with decay the new ones would only get about 1 item and then had to wait forever. We have been farming for some months already so there are just a few rly upgrades for them.

I did implement one member once back about 1-2 months ago. We also used epgp. Before the reset he was not able to get any HM items that were needed by any other core members. I think some of you think about too less EP but i am talking bout 1-3 Months worth of EP , as i said we were quite unlucky with dropps and some ppl did not spend ther EP for MONTHS !


Also did both of them get loot on the 2 Lockouts. One mage did join us wit ilvl 382 and left us yesterday with 394. The other did get a Heroic staff from a FIRSTKILL !

IF what you are saying is true then you are not setting your decay% high enough so that members priority is not dropping significantly when they receive loot. The numbers are all a balancing act yes sure but you can tweak the numbers to accelerate or slowdown the rate at which your members accrue their priority for loot drops.

If you wish to incentivise a faster turnaround to enforce your members to get upgrades sooner and lessen EP hoarding AND at the same time allow new trials to not have to wait months before getting 1-2 pieces of loot you increase the decay%.

I have no idea what decay% you use for your guilds EPGP. I personally set my old guilds decay to 20% (we had it at 10% in WotLK and it didnt seem good enough). At 20% it ensures those who take long breaks cannot come back and still rule the priority and at the same time they are not unduly punished for taking time away (priority will increase quickly with new attained EP due to old gearpoints decaying away faster).
It also means your raiders GearPoints decay faster so they can not feel bad about taking an upgrade, as their priority recovers more quickly. It rewards recent effort more than the effort you did on a raid 10-15 weeks ago which again makes your raiders hungry to keep going and not sit back on the priority they attained months back.
Additionally due to the faster turnaround and priority recovering faster new trialists wont be too daunted about the time it takes them to get loot.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't join you if that's the way you go with a "reset".

[Raziella]

Fact that I've never seen a "fair" loot system aside...

I'm more concerned about your "EPGP with Lootcouncil" than the free items.
You clearly aren't doing something right with the system, and the "with Lootcouncil" sounds like a cheap out if you don't agree with how the system falls out.
Also, in my experience, EPGP is one of the faster systems for getting people to "catch up" - so maybe you don't have someone, like decay, tuned right?

Anyways, it's a huge dead spot between expacs, a lot of your trials are going to be worried you're going to throw them out anyways once your old people come back from MoP, and if you didn't explain exactly what was going to happen to them BEFORE they joined, especially if they were server transfers, this looks really REALLY bad to them.
If I had thought you were going to reset (or even not reset) and then you threw this "btw, free item" at me, I would have quit, too.

Of course, I stopped raiding anything but LFR now, after about 6 years, because I'm tired of people believing that being treated like a cheap pawn in THEIR guild to boss around is actually the appropriate behavior...

[asharia]

sounds dumb

reset it for everyone. it is common place however, that full raid members get priority over a trial.

[Deleted]

Its a stupid system and anybody in their right mind wouldn't stay around while all the other people get 2 free items, it could be months until they have a chance on loot (depending on RNG ofc)

[Guided by Voices]

The problem with your system is the unpredictability of it. praying for the RNG to drop what you want then hoping it doesn't to to long term member could be too many unknowns for a new member. With LFR raid guilds are going to have to be alot more flexible with loot and new members.

[Deleted]

As i understand, the 25-men raid is a farming raid, not a progress raid (correct me if I'm wrong).
And both of 10m groups decided to farm together in a 25m (completed to 25 with trials) to increase the drop chance of certain needed items.

At this point (especially on a farm-raid basis) seems fair to give the veteran raiders a prio on items over the trials.
I am surprised that the trials had an opportunity to receive loot.