People against the % buffs

[Stevoman]

Stop talking about competiation, if your guild couldnt beat it without the buff you werent in a competition ever.

There is no competition after nerfs because after that its just free ride

Spoken like one who has never been thru trying to recruit for an upcoming expansion from a medium-high grade guild.

Nerfs like these kill guilds that are not-quite world class, but still good on their realm. These nerfs literally only help the top 1% with quicker farm nights, and bottom feeders who hit a brick wall at 1/8H pre-nerf.

[Brett Skullcrack]

If you don`t care about the others, then you can enjoy content at your own pace without paying attention to the buff. If you feel that the buff is "cheapening" your experience, then turn it off. Assuming you don`t care about others, it`s not going to affect you in any way.

In an ideal world, sure. In the real world guilds live and die through recruitment, and recruitment is heavily dependent on progress and rankings, which are in turn heavily dependent on whether you use the buff or not. So in the real world you cannot turn off the buff unless your guild has a deathwish.

[Miko]

Spoken like one who has never been thru trying to recruit for an upcoming expansion from a medium-high grade guild.

Nerfs like these kill guilds that are not-quite world class, but still good on their realm. These nerfs literally only help the top 1% with quicker farm nights, and bottom feeders who hit a brick wall at 1/8H pre-nerf.

I think it helps whoever decides to use them. Some people like to play with friends that are bad and not have to endure a looking for rage group. Some guilds have strong 10mans and can now do normal or even few heroic counters easier. They made this game for everyone. You don't have to use the buff.

[Deleted]

Nothing is stopping you from raiding the way you like, and it doesn`t make you better or worse than others. If others finished content before/after you it means just that.
If you don`t care about the others, then you can enjoy content at your own pace without paying attention to the buff. If you feel that the buff is "cheapening" your experience, then turn it off. Assuming you don`t care about others, it`s not going to affect you in any way.

What do you have to lose from the buff?

First of all, I was responding to a person who said that if you don't clear DS before the buff you need it. And then you agreed with him.
I was not talking about competition.
And as I already said, will you cripple yourself by not taking potions, flasks, class buffs and better gear?

[maky13]

In an ideal world, sure. In the real world guilds live and die through recruitment, and recruitment is heavily dependent on progress and rankings, which are in turn heavily dependent on whether you use the buff or not. So in the real world you cannot turn off the buff unless your guild has a deathwish.

I know, and I agree. But the buff is the same for everyone, so it`s not putting anyone at a disadvantage.

First of all, I was responding to a person who said that if you don't clear DS before the buff you need it. And then you agreed with him.
I was not talking about competition.
And as I already said, will you cripple yourself by not taking potions, flasks, class buffs and better gear?

I never said that you need the buff or not. It`s just "semantics", but my point is simple: if you could have cleared before the buff was live, you would have. What would happen if the buff would be delayed is just pure speculation and it`s irrelevant.

Just like potions, flasks, etc, the monthly -5% is a part of the game. Why does it bother you?

[Kapper117]

agree with the OP, since it's true that you didn't beat it with no buff thus you weren't good enough for the time allotted by Blizzard.

If you think you're truly a top end guild like top 10 in the world you would be doing what all the others do and is raid the whole damn week like 16 hours a day if not more. I keep seeing the,"o we would have got it down if we had more time and tries," YA YOU WOULD OF, OBVIOUSLY you were not good enough though during the time to kill heroics without the buff.

It's all about time, obviously top 10 in the world guilds have time management down much better then other guilds, but they also have no lives so...it's a double edged sword.

just grow up ffs and stop finding excuses, what's in the past is in the past that's it

[Essenji]

The only reason that the top guilds took it down before the % buffs is because they spend a lot more time on it than a normal guild.
Honestly I don't mind the % buff though, as it does help more people through the content.
Also: Old topic is ooooooold...
For reference I got 8/8 on 5% buff.

[Dvaldin]

Competition-You're still able to compete, albeit perhaps not with the challenge you would have preferred.

Esteem-You're still able to do it without the nerf, albeit while sacrificing the competition against other guilds.

Recruitment-Many raiders looking for guilds on a server are not looking outside the top 7-10.

Whatever you want, it's there, even if it's not precisely how you would prefer it to be.

[Vanisari]

Spoken like one who has never been thru trying to recruit for an upcoming expansion from a medium-high grade guild.

Nerfs like these kill guilds that are not-quite world class, but still good on their realm. These nerfs literally only help the top 1% with quicker farm nights, and bottom feeders who hit a brick wall at 1/8H pre-nerf.

How does it kill a guild that is say sitting at 6/8H making progress on spine? If anything it helps them by getting them over the hurdle so their raiders don't get burnt out and simply stop showing up.

The “bottom feeders” also will most likely never get close to 8/8H anyway. It may help with some fights after being ramped up but they will still fail at fights that require you to pay attention to mechanics.

[Mudkiper]

Not true.

More gear and more practice leads to more kills.

My guild raids 1-2 nights a week. We simply do not have the time to spend several hours a week attempting a single boss.

Several of our members dont have 4pc yet. I've been present for every kill we've had and there are still a couple of upgrades i need from normal modes. That's just 10man loot rng.

Paragon had 400+? wipes on heroic rag? we've not had that many wipes in DS total. Across both normal and heroic modes.

Yes but the gear and the practice is obviously limited by the time you raid pre-nerf, you might of been capable of doing it pre-nerf but you couldn't due to limitations which you, as a guild, have put up (limited raiding time, etc). Therefore if you could have killed it pre-nerf, you would have.

[skrump]

I love the %buffs as they give players a false sense of accomplishment/skill so they feel like they get a boot in the face when new content is finally released.
I mean honestly do you not smile when someone who has killed heroic deathwing gets their ass handed to them on heroic Ragnaros.

As for competition well if your not world/server first to clear content on heroic mode you really don't have anything to brag about anyway.

[Vanisari]

I love the %buffs as they give players a false sense of accomplishment/skill so they feel like they get a boot in the face when new content is finally released.
I mean honestly do you not smile when someone who has killed heroic deathwing gets their ass handed to them on heroic Ragnaros.

As for competition well if your not world/server first to clear content on heroic mode you really don't have anything to brag about anyway.

There is much more competition on a server level than for just the server first. I’ve seen guilds that were 4/7 in reg FL the week before they nerfed it competing with each other. When they nerf it the playing field is still level though so it has minimal effect on it anyway.

[Raelbo]

Why do people think that blizzard should nerf HEROIC bosses until they will be able to kill them.

No one here is arguing that Blizzard should nerf heroic bosses until everyone will be able to kill them. You miss the point entirely. What is actually happening is that Blizzard is helping players to accelerate progression. It's incremental. People who could progress through 16 bosses in 16 weeks were given that opportunity. Those people are unaffected by the nerf. But they only represent less than 1% of the total WoW community.

Now, people who would have been able to progress through 16 bosses in say 24 weeks will be able to do it in 20. People who would have needed a year to get through the content might be able to get through it in 6 months. People who would only have been able to clear 4 bosses will probably be able to get 7 or 8. etc etc.

Heroic boss should be hard and should stay hard. It should be killed only by the most skilled players of wow community.

They are still hard. They are still only killed by the most skilled players of the WoW community.

The whole "heroic" difficulty was created to separate baddies from hardcore raiders.

Yes, because as we all know, 99.5% of WoW players (those who didn't kill Deathwing Heroic pre-nerf) are useless below average fools.

When you have 3 difficulty levels - for every level of skill - nerfing does not make sense.

Nerfing makes sense because it ensures that people do not get stuck, bored and leave the game. The objective of the nerfs is to ensure that everyone raiding continues to progress whether they are at 3/8 normal or 3/8 HC.

Most raiders don't want to spend 6-9 months clearing a tier.

Every 5% nerf increases the number of deathwing kills by 2-3 times.

and this is a problem why? If only 0.1% of players clear it without nerfs, this is still only 5% after 6 nerfs.

Take gladiator for example. Its 0.5% of pvp players. Just imaging gladiator "nerfs". First nerf: 0.5% --> 1%. Second nerf 1% -->2.5%... 6-th nerf -->15%?
I'm pretty sure that A LOT of players would love such changes. But does it make sense?
And if it does not, why to nerf raids? Whats the difference?

It's a world of difference. PvP is about continually fighting to stay above the rest of the players. The game effectively adapts as players get better.

PvE is about clearing content and moving on. It should take long enough to keep people entertained, but not long enough to drive us into despair.

[Stevoman]

How does it kill a guild that is say sitting at 6/8H making progress on spine? If anything it helps them by getting them over the hurdle so their raiders don't get burnt out and simply stop showing up.

Spine was a bad example to use, as the only nerf that mattered on spine was the 20%.

Marginal buffs like this won't help, as a 25man will always have two Amalgs on every tendon, no matter if they get the tendon to 50% or 5% on the first round.

Fixing the targeting bug on Spine would be a bigger nerf than increasing the Aspects buff to 30%.

[Deleted]

I know, and I agree. But the buff is the same for everyone, so it`s not putting anyone at a disadvantage.


I never said that you need the buff or not. It`s just "semantics", but my point is simple: if you could have cleared before the buff was live, you would have. What would happen if the buff would be delayed is just pure speculation and it`s irrelevant.

Just like potions, flasks, etc, the monthly -5% is a part of the game. Why does it bother you?

I give up. I told you numerous times I (we) sometimes can't play every week. That does not mean we need buff. It doesn't mean anything. It means leave it alone. Choose your difficulty level...
I can't choose it without the buff because not one guild would do it. Especially on my server when Alliance didn't kill Madness on hc...
and believe it or not, race on our pathetic realm (for you saying that there is no more race) is still on...

[maky13]

I give up. I told you numerous times I (we) sometimes can't play every week. That does not mean we need buff. It doesn't mean anything. It means leave it alone. Choose your difficulty level...

Periodic nerfs are part of the instance. If you want to kill it before the nerf, you will make time to kill it before the nerf. If you can`t, then ... you can`t. It doesn`t mean that you need the nerf; but the nerf will be there regardless.
The choices you get:
- dedicate much more time, kill it before the nerf
- keep the same raiding times, kill it with nerf, take part in the competition at your level, be happy that you cleared content
- keep the same raiding time, turn the buff off and ignore the competition, kill it without nerf, be happy that you cleared it prenerf

[Deathgoose]

No, there are not few weeks of gear. We killed it next reset.
And where does it say we need to start raiding when next tier comes out? Why can't we start raiding 3 weeks later? I sent my friend scroll of resurrection, does he need the buff to beat Deathwing? Is he bad because he started late?
Clock is part of the challenge for World first raiders, not casual raiders like most WoW raiders are.

Really? I mean, really?

It seems you're arguing it both ways simultaneously. So you're not in competition because you started several weeks later? And you don't like the buff? And you you don't care how long it takes to do it without the buff?

And... you don't see how you can easily resolve your issue? Really?

[Deleted]

What you fail to see is that it's not the "fake elitists" that don't want the buff.
I'm a casual raider and I HATE the buff coming so damn quick. There is no way for my guild to have the time to beat heroic content before it gets nerfed because we can only schedule 1-3 3h raids a week.

---------- Post added 2012-03-26 at 07:35 PM ----------

Really? I mean, really?

It seems you're arguing it both ways simultaneously. So you're not in competition because you started several weeks later? And you don't like the buff? And you you don't care how long it takes to do it without the buff?

And... you don't see how you can easily resolve your issue? Really?

He means he is not in the world first competition. He is in the competition for regular raiding guilds on his realm.
Most people don't give a damn about what the best guilds in the world do.

[maky13]

What you fail to see is that it's not the "fake elitists" that don't want the buff.
I'm a casual raider and I HATE the buff coming so damn quick. There is no way for my guild to have the time to beat heroic content before it gets nerfed because we can only schedule 1-3 3h raids a week.

Beat it before MoP. It`s still a good challenge.
Accept that the nerf is part of the instance.

[Vanisari]

What you fail to see is that it's not the "fake elitists" that don't want the buff.
I'm a casual raider and I HATE the buff coming so damn quick. There is no way for my guild to have the time to beat heroic content before it gets nerfed because we can only schedule 1-3 3h raids a week.

I raid 3 days a week for about 3-4 hours a night and clear content just fine on heroic.