[Feral PvP] Are any of you PvP Ferals bothered by this?

[exochaft]

This is more a side note than anything else, there's a reason weapon damage modifiers are going down.

I'll give you an example of my Kiril, Fury of Beasts (403 version):

Live -> 2629-3945 damage, swing 3.50sec, 939.3 DPS
Beta -> 5259-7890 damage, swing 3.50sec, 1878 DPS

If these changes are intended, fairly certain weapon modifiers dropped so we wouldn't be ridiculously OP in the pre-MoP 5.0 patch and we would scale properly for end-game MoP.

More in line with the bleed discussion, I'm fairly certain something will change with respect to Detox and/or feral kitten bleeds. The effort/time required to put up Rip versus the effort/time required to Detox is very unbalanced (since basically the time it would take to reapply a 5-point Rip is on average greater than the CD on Detox). About the only "line of defense" would be Rake + Ferocious Bite, since, if the monk is sitting on Detox waiting for the Rip, you could safely just Rake for moderate bleed damage and still get Ferocious Bite 25% crit chance bonus. You can get into CC discussions, but the CC goes both ways, and while the feral's team can CC the monk(s) to protect the bleeds, the opposing team can CC/control the fight so that the feral could never even get one Rake/Rip tick's worth of damage out anyways... aka, we could debate CC all day and get nowhere on either side.

The bigger picture is that Detox does affect multiple classes, specifically feral druids, rogues, and warriors. Warriors are likely the least impacted since reapplication of Rend is rather easy (unless they introduce a CD to Rend that I'm not aware of). Rogues get a double-whammy of bleed and poison removal, however the Rupture damage does not really compare to that of a feral's set of bleeds, and the poisons can be reapplied with relative easy (aka, you aren't using combo points and energy to directly reapply poisons)... simply put, the recovery time for rogues' pressure on a target is much easier and less affected by Detox than feral druids'.

I've seen the whole "bleed dispel protection" discussion in relation to warlocks, specifically UA in most cases. Now, why did UA (and VT for priests eventually) get dispel protection? Was it because everyone and their mother's second cousin could dispel magic? No, lots of casters use magic DoTs in some shape or form, and not everyone got protection from dispels (UA got protection before all healers even were able to dispel magic). The specific reason was that the ability to remove the DoTs of the specifics specs (Affliction locks, Shadow priests) was ridiculously easy, AND the main damage focus of those classes/specs with dispel protection is DoTs. The situation arose where the efficiency to counter/neutralize a DoT class/spec exceeded the efficiency to apply said DoTs, and Blizz's answer was to protect the DoT DPSers. We're coming to a situation where feral kittens can be easily countered/neutralized by a dispel mechanic, so if Blizz sticks to their previous methodology, the issue should be addressed.

[Deleted]

Perhaps not, but it still doesn't change the fact that we're getting unlimited mobility and a lot more time on-target, yet people go crazy because ONE class now counters bleeds.
I don't remember seeing an uproar in the feral community about the unfairness of shifting into bear from and countering rogues and warriors straight to hell.
I don't remember druids saying it was unfair that we were able to shift out of roots and slows back until cata was released.
I don't remember ferals crying about an undispellable, instant cyclone that not only blocks damage, but also healing.

No. This is simply a case of people being butt-hurt because ONE class out of 11 will now be a bit of a challenge. Nothing else.

I have typed out several replies to this, but I actually just don't know what to say.

TL;DR: Are ferals OP atm? Yeah a little, especially bear form survivability. Is it good in MoP that one class in any spec can dispel most of our damage? No, I don't think so. Feel free to disagree.

[zyzz]

Remember when DKs first came out? They had an ability that removed 2 hots off their target. GG resto druids rite?
Well, I think one of 2 things will probably happen, this ability will not remove bleeds anymore or at least ALL bleeds OR as somebody mentioned already, we might gain a UA type ability to protect our bleeds from being dispelled.

you know whats so funny tho. blizzard cant see far ahead and wait till the damage has already been done, Ie monks OP as fuck and ferals gimp as fuck

[Deleted]

you know whats so funny tho. blizzard cant see far ahead and wait till the damage has already been done, Ie monks OP as fuck and ferals gimp as fuck

they definitely tend to roll with a "let's wait and see attitude"

[NightZero88]

Perhaps not, but it still doesn't change the fact that we're getting unlimited mobility and a lot more time on-target, yet people go crazy because ONE class now counters bleeds.
I don't remember seeing an uproar in the feral community about the unfairness of shifting into bear from and countering rogues and warriors straight to hell.
I don't remember druids saying it was unfair that we were able to shift out of roots and slows back until cata was released.
I don't remember ferals crying about an undispellable, instant cyclone that not only blocks damage, but also healing.

No. This is simply a case of people being butt-hurt because ONE class out of 11 will now be a bit of a challenge. Nothing else.

Perhaps we're gaining unlimited mobility because Blizz finally realized how stupid it was to remove in the first place?

All of your so called points about uproars in the feral community make no sense. These are all strengths of a feral so why the hell would we complain about our strengths? In the rogue/warrior example the rogue and warrior should be complaining and they most certainly DID. In the shifting scenario, as soon as feral became viable everyone DID complain. In the cyclone example again, people DID complain.

Everyone complained in ALL of these situations the second feral became a viable arena spec. Your flawed logic is flawed.

And yes, it's one class out of 11 but what you fail to grasp is that it is a BRAND NEW CLASS meaning EVERYONE will play them because they will be OP as shit in the exact same way when DKs were released EVERYONE HAD ONE. Hopefully the caps will help this sink in. And, not only that but EVERY spec of monk has detox meaning it doesn't even need to be a damn monk healer to remove 40% of a druids damage. 40 freaking percent. This is a big fucking deal. I don't know what class you play but how about you let a class just outright stop 40% of your damage on a 8 second CD and let's see you not complain.

[Deleted]

Rend did get a cd of 5 seconds, because you can only apply it by using mortal strike(as arms), a monk dispelling it could be quite a damage drop. Detox would also make monks the default partners for rogues since rogues hate bleeds.

[Eldrad]

LOL ? you serious here ? LOLOL.

Dead serious. You obviously don't pay attention to PvP numbers.

Feral's main instant attack is Mangle.
Go compare a Mangle crit vs a Mortal Strike crit, or a Crusader Strike crit, or a Obliterate/Death Strike/Frost Strike crit, or a Arcane Shot crit.

Feral does NOT hit hard, but they do hit a lot. The exception of course is a full charged Ferocious Bite. But that requires 5 CPs and energy pooling and isn't really pertinent to this discussion.

---------- Post added 2012-03-30 at 09:30 PM ----------

Exactly. And with that survivability being removed and bleeds being dispellable i dont see ferals as r1 material in MoP either.

People claiming that ferals are op and r1 right now could go watch the current brackets and see how many ferals there are at
r1 and top 30 teams.

Yeah. Thats what i thought. Stop complaining and learn how to play. (Also stop playing 2v2)

With the current status of MoP, Ferals are gone. Thats the facts. Good thing its still early beta though and blizz still has a chance to make things right.

I like you, you know how it is.

I wish I could round up all the idiots that believe that feral is (currently) over powered and cut their internet connections.
Feral is pretty far from being OP. It is however, viable... unlike how it has been EVERY other non-Cata season.

[Zenko]

EDIT: I did some browsing around the fine forums here at MMO-Champ and im gonna cut and paste some of what Ive read I hope this sheds some light to the people here of why I feel the way I do and why I think many of the people need to get some real perspective and chill the fuck out. Enjoy

THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING EVERY CLASS IS TERRIBLE

Yes, it is Beta. We are testing a game and providing feedback. This certain implementation is extremely worrisome, and I'll get to that in a minute.

However, you are not providing feedback on these Feral/Monk implementations. Infact, you are being destructive with your irrelevant, strawman arguments. No one cares about random people complaining about their class. People do that all day, every day. The only thing you've added to this thread is nonsense. How dare you get in the way of progress? If you don't own and play a max lvl Druid regularly, you have no business posting about things you are clueless about. If you think Ferals are so overpowered, go email Blizzard about how you feel.

Now, back on topic.

Bleeds amount for ~40% of a Feral's total damage in pvp. 50% if you count the buffs it brings to our other abilities. 30% if you get VERY lucky crits with direct damage attacks. Rake is 10-15%, and Rip is 20-25%.

If the target ISNT bleeding, then my Shred does less damage than Mangle, (http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=5221) and my FB has -25% crit chance.(http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=22568) The ENTIRE Cat druid arsenal is dependent on the target bleeding. The only other spec in the game that is as dependant on DoTs is the Affliction Spec. But, they have counters to dispels, and dont suffer from the same drawbracks (melee range) and ramp-up times (energy, combo points) that the Feral experiences.

I can only think of 4 different scenarios this can lead to...

1: Blizz pulls off the Hybrid aspect of the Druid class and we gain tons of healing and CC for PvP to replace all of the lost damage. Possible Scenario.
2: Blizz re-designs our abilities so that every direct damage ability adds a Bleed component. Net damage increase is 0. Gain = Versatility with Maims/FBs while still being able to keep bleeds up. Best Scenario.
3: Blizz buffs our direct damage abilities or adds Bleed protections or changes the way combo points work to stack on yourself, rather than the target. Unlikely scenario.
4: Blizz stays the course and makes Ferals useless against any Monk for a season or 2. Worst scenario.

A Warrior or Rogue could lose their bleeds and still stay competitive. Bleeds are to Warriors and Rogues as diseases are to Death Knights. Roughly ~15% of your effectiveness. NOT 50% like a Feral.

[NightZero88]

Feral is pretty far from being OP. It is however, viable... unlike how it has been EVERY other non-Cata season.

Been saying this for months and months. Nobody ever listens. At least some people here aren't completely idiotic. Ferals are in a good spot in terms of what class should be able to do in PvP.

[Deleted]

no, besides in MoP i see the possibility of burst through bleeds or burst direct dmg through savage roar and ferocious bite(unless im mistaken in some of the buffs we got compared to the nerfs)

[Deleted]

So Ferals are OP in pvp? Show me all those r1 ferals in 3v3 please. Im waiting!

Meanwhile i can show you all those rogue, mages, locks and shamans at r1 in 3v3.

Did you find more than 5 r1 ferals? No? Because i found like 30+ r1 mages, locks, rogues and shamans.

But yeah, i believe you bro. Ferals are op as hell....

[aliandren]

Feral bleeds being dispelled is completely unlike dispelling any other debuff for any other class. Stoneform is irrelevant as it is on a long cooldown, and self-cast only. At any pvp beyond mediocrity ferals will be easily shut down to a pitifully low sustained dps in an expansion that looks to de-emphasize burst damage. An ill-advised change for the sake of trying to make monks more of a unique snowflake. I'd care more if development actually seemed interested in making a quality product anymore; Pandas are evidence enough of the cash-out mentality that the company now embraces.

If you plan on playing a dps druid in PvP you should probably play balance.
If you are a die-hard melee spec junkie you should probably re-roll to another class.
If you're too annoyed to do either you should probably find another game to play.