[MoP Balance] Balance Druid Difficulty

[Kaelluss]

Yes, execution phase would be good as almost all classes has. Even Spriest (a "hybrid") has. But none for Moonkins. Let's say, Insect Swarm makes your spells hit extra 5% when the target afflicted is under 25% health.

Or it could come back on Earth and Moon: - Affect all targets of Wrath, Starfire and Wild Mushrooms with 8% spell damage taken for 12 secs. Increases all spells against targets afflicted by Earth and Moon debuff with 5% damage taken when the targets are under 25%. - Maybe even: Wrath and Starfire generates additional 5 energy which is more benefical when the targets affected by Earth and Moon debuff is under 25% health.

[JonBeMerkin]

Yes, execution phase would be good as almost all classes has. Even Spriest (a "hybrid") has. But none for Moonkins. Let's say, Insect Swarm makes your spells hit extra 5% when the target afflicted is under 25% health.

Or it could come back on Earth and Moon: - Affect all targets of Wrath, Starfire and Wild Mushrooms with 8% spell damage taken for 12 secs. Increases all spells against targets afflicted by Earth and Moon debuff with 5% damage taken when the targets are under 25%. - Maybe even: Wrath and Starfire generates additional 5 energy which is more benefical when the targets affected by Earth and Moon debuff is under 25% health.

Or just make it so starsurge has no cooldown when the target is below 25%

[Deleted]

If they really wanted to make moonkin better get rid of the dam lag delay on entering eclipse. Build solar/lunar on successful cast, not successful hit

That's how i'm told it works now, don't have the beta yet myself so can't confirm that.

[Jibjabb]

as an experienced moonkin myself (been playing it since end of BC) and part of end game progression since then, I will say that just from look over the talents it does seem that the spec is dumbed down. after playing it for so long its hard for me to call it "challenging" but it did have its complexities that could be harder to master to edge out that extra DPS.

this new model feels very simplified im trying to thing of variables that could alter a solid and good player and its really hard to find some. Moonfire seems to be going the way of Serpent Sting just a mindlessly refreshed ability you dont particulary have to time well. Insect Swarm is Hunters Mark/Bane of Doom you put it up on anything living a while and thats that. I fully expected multi dotting to get axed as it was quite strong in long living aoe situations to a point specs without it couldnt really compete, so thats fine with me. What Im hoping is that they add something else to give it more of a challenge or that I just missed something otherwise it feels like a very basic rotation without the chance to experience the difficulty of maintaining many dots on many targets

[Kjalar]

I don't think it's hard now, so I don't think it'll be a lot easier in MoP. All of those changes make perfect sense:
1. having two similar DOTs doesn't make sense AND moonkins needed some single-target boost without overbuffing our ability to AOE - here we go, IS gets reworked to fix that
2. Starfall not being sync'd with lunar always felt stupid to me - fixed
3. Sitting in solar for 60% of particular fights for the sake of multi-DOTing felt even worse - fixed

As some people have already pointed out, the only thing left to fix is eclipse triggering. Current design is plain stupid. Of course, in some situations you can use it for your own advantage, but honestly, that triggering lag always felt wrong to me.

[noobadrood]

Wasn't our baseline 15% a&n damage (specialization bonus) removed? So we get an easier mechanic with less potential

[huth]

That's how i'm told it works now, don't have the beta yet myself so can't confirm that.

It does. It's a bit unusual, but overall plays better.

Unrelated, but they fixed the Arcane Storm/Hurricane disparity with the patch. Both now hit for the same amount(and both hit for more than before). With 2113 mastery rating and the 5 mastery buff, i got a 81% Eclipse and had both tick for 7.9k. Shrooms explode for 10k in Solar now.

BR works in Moonkin form as well, baseline.

[Tinsoul]

Eclipse management is what seperates good balance druids, not dots, entering the phase at the right stage of eclipse to maximise DPS, it's not hard it just requires practice and a few tries on the boss. Obviously if your dot uptime sucks on multitarget then your dps will suck as well.

I'd argue that it's eclipse management that separates very good balance druids from good balance druids, and dots that separate good balance druids from bad ones. There are a surprising number of moonkin out there that either don't realise they are a multi-dot class, or are terrible at it. I think this is one of the greatest factors in the large standard deviation mentioned in the original post.

Edit: spelling

[pakoa]

My problem doesn't so much lie with dots (although I don't really like the changes, it's not too bad), so much as the buff to lunar eclipse. If our aoe is equally as strong in both eclipses, then there's no reason to really manage your eclipses. Just try to get a really high natures grace uptime and you'll be good since you'll at most be 6 casts away from an eclipse.

I get that a lot of people don't like having to idle in solar so much, but it's strong aoe is what made eclipse management actual managing. now it just won't matter. IMO lunar and solar need to have their own niches whatever that may be. There needs to be an ideal time to be in both lunar and solar. Maybe make solar better for sustained aoe while lunar stronger for adds that die quickly, idk. It just needs to be something.

[Kyanion]

I started the beta last night but as the title says it just looks like IS is gone from our spellbooks. I don't know if they plan to remove this ability and make it even easier (hope not) or what the plan is. But yeah no spelldamge buff no nothing.

[Skyepic]

I started the beta last night but as the title says it just looks like IS is gone from our spellbooks. I don't know if they plan to remove this ability and make it even easier (hope not) or what the plan is. But yeah no spelldamge buff no nothing.

I noticed this as well. I dont believe it's "gone" but it is not implemented in the current beta patch. They may be doing changes to it at the moment so we'll see it come back shortly in the next update.

[ZeroEdgeir]

I bet it was already said, but...

Having to multi-dot just to be "competitive" with other DPS specs/classes, should never be a requirement. That is called bad class design.

Insect Swarm now is a lovely debuff they can now use as a tuning knob anytime Balance DPS feels too high or low in single-target combat, because it is exclusive to Balance, and is a flat spell damage bonus to the caster against the target of it. To some measure, it is a brilliant design.

Shadow Priests and Warlocks all have had at least 1 DoT refreshed by their main nuke spell. It removes some of the clunkiness to the spec/class, by making it flow better, and not seem to upkeep centric. Even been done with Feral Druids too.

Dunno what you can complain about. The class is being fixed so that gimmicks and tricks aren't the only way to do the DPS needed (and actually means doing the DPS on the intended target, and not every target within castable range).

---------- Post added 2012-03-30 at 09:08 AM ----------

I noticed this as well. I dont believe it's "gone" but it is not implemented in the current beta patch. They may be doing changes to it at the moment so we'll see it come back shortly in the next update.

I wouldn't worry... Paladins all lost Guardian of Ancient Kings in the last patch too. Not even MMO-Champion's list of class changes noticed it, so it's just a [BUG] until further notice.

---------- Post added 2012-03-30 at 09:12 AM ----------

Eclipse management is what seperates good balance druids, not dots, entering the phase at the right stage of eclipse to maximise DPS, it's not hard it just requires practice and a few tries on the boss. Obviously if your dot uptime sucks on multitarget then your dps will suck as well.

I'd argue that it's eclipse management that separates very good balance druids from good balance druids, and dots that separate good balance druids from bad ones. There are a surprising number of moonkin out there that either don't realise they are a multi-dot class, or are terrible at it. I think this is one of the greatest factors in the large standard deviation mentioned in the original post.

Edit: spelling

No class or spec should be deemed a "multi-dot class", cause that literally says "If the encounter only has 1 target, you are sub-par and can/should be benched or not brought at all". Remember Blizzard's goal of "Bring the player, not the class"? This would be one of those situations they are working to correct it in.

[Skyepic]

I bet it was already said, but...

Having to multi-dot just to be "competitive" with other DPS specs/classes, should never be a requirement. That is called bad class design.

Insect Swarm now is a lovely debuff they can now use as a tuning knob anytime Balance DPS feels too high or low in single-target combat, because it is exclusive to Balance, and is a flat spell damage bonus to the caster against the target of it. To some measure, it is a brilliant design.

Shadow Priests and Warlocks all have had at least 1 DoT refreshed by their main nuke spell. It removes some of the clunkiness to the spec/class, by making it flow better, and not seem to upkeep centric. Even been done with Feral Druids too.

Dunno what you can complain about. The class is being fixed so that gimmicks and tricks aren't the only way to do the DPS needed (and actually means doing the DPS on the intended target, and not every target within castable range).

Yes but you have to take into consideration they still have 2 other DoTs to manage. So have 1 refresh off their main nuke is a pretty good design. We used to manage 2 DoTs, now we manage 0. We just put up moonfire/sunfire and forget about it. Since i haven't really had a chance to get into the PvE portion of the beta yet and start figuring out ways to Min/Max, yes there is still certainly a chance that because of all the new stuff we're getting / need to manage, not having to manage any DoTs may actually be a relief, but at the moment it seems like we don't even need a brain to properly play the class.

[Dorfie]

Insect swarm change makes me O so happy for RBGs

[huth]

I noticed this as well. I dont believe it's "gone" but it is not implemented in the current beta patch. They may be doing changes to it at the moment so we'll see it come back shortly in the next update.

Actually, with how the numbers are tuned in the beta, it very much seems like this was on purpose. Doesn't mean they might not bring it back in some form in a later patch, though.

[Skyepic]

Actually, with how the numbers are tuned in the beta, it very much seems like this was on purpose. Doesn't mean they might not bring it back in some form in a later patch, though.

I doubt they'd just randomly get rid of insect swarm though

[Kyanion]

Yes but you have to take into consideration they still have 2 other DoTs to manage. So have 1 refresh off their main nuke is a pretty good design. We used to manage 2 DoTs, now we manage 0. We just put up moonfire/sunfire and forget about it. Since i haven't really had a chance to get into the PvE portion of the beta yet and start figuring out ways to Min/Max, yes there is still certainly a chance that because of all the new stuff we're getting / need to manage, not having to manage any DoTs may actually be a relief, but at the moment it seems like we don't even need a brain to properly play the class.

I'll just say that in testing I had to at least cast moonfire or sunfire when I procced an eclipse state. The dot would get refreshed until I left solar/lunar. That means that moonfire would fall off during a solar phase because it only refreshes sunfire. When I proc lunar I have to cast moonfire and then start again. So you still have to technically manage 1 DoT. It is not like shadow word pain and mind flay synergy.

[huth]

It is not like shadow word pain and mind flay synergy.

Which, by the way, was removed.

I doubt they'd just randomly get rid of insect swarm though

They gave monks auto-attack and decided to revert the item squish because they didn't like how it felt. I think your doubt is misplaced.

[Skyepic]

I'll just say that in testing I had to at least cast moonfire or sunfire when I procced an eclipse state. The dot would get refreshed until I left solar/lunar. That means that moonfire would fall off during a solar phase because it only refreshes sunfire. When I proc lunar I have to cast moonfire and then start again. So you still have to technically manage 1 DoT. It is not like shadow word pain and mind flay synergy.

I dont really consider that "managing" though. When i use the word manage, i mean the decision whether or not to refresh your DoT's before leaving the eclipse based on the duration. The choice between immediately re-applying them when you enter an eclipse or not. Entering an eclipse pressing "3" and then knowing that you won't have to press "3" again until you reach your next eclipse isn't really "management". It's just "press '3' when you enter an eclipse to do maximum dps!"

---------- Post added 2012-03-30 at 10:41 AM ----------

They gave monks auto-attack and decided to revert the item squish because they didn't like how it felt. I think your doubt is misplaced.

Uhhh there was a very good reason for why they added monk auto-attack (PvP Burst for 1). I'm not going to go into a long explanation of why they did it (feel free to look it up on your own time) but it was highly justified and makes alot of sense. The item squish had more to do with having to go back and tune all old content so it was easily do-able at a higher level / ilvl gear but at the same time keeping the correct difficulty**. Both of those things are highly justifiable so it seems somewhat trivial when compared to Insect Swarm.

Insect Swarm was supposed to be our main source of dps balanc between single target and AoE/multi-target. So to randomly take it out or revert seems kind of off.

**Note: Also people like big numbers. In retrospect it has no affect on the game but i'd much rather have my starsurge crit for 80,000 than 900 with an item squish. I'm sure most of the community feels the same way. Big numbers are "fun" to alot of people because it makes them feel more powerful (or something). There's probably a decent amount of the community who doesn't ever wanna see an item squish just because the game is more fun to them when they can crit things for 6 figures.

[Deleted]

This is just speculation based off the changes they've announced so far regarding balance druid's but does anyone else feel like they are dumbing down the class?

Insect Swarm is now the new Devouring Plague and can no longer be used to multi DoT.
Wrath/Starfire refreshes sunfire/moonfire
Starfall CD resets when you enter Lunar
Lunar Eclipse gets it's own version of Hurricane.
Introduction of Celestial Alignment

With the eclipse mechanic changes, Balance Druid dps has had the highest Standard Deviation of any class this entire expansion. Meaning there was the largest gap/fluctuation between a good balance druid and a bad balance druid compared to other classes. Some of the things listed above as well as eclipse management were some of the things that determined a good moonkin from a bad moonkin and certainly showed easily in raid. Properly Managing your eclipse to align with certain mechanics of the fight, managing your DoTs on multple targets, refreshing/re-applying your DoTs at the correct times, knowing when to stagger your starfall to align with lunar eclipse and when not to.

All these things helped define a good moonkin from a great moonkin and now they are taking that away. I'm not necessarily saying it's the wrong thing to do, maybe it's something that really needed to be done cause there were so many more bad moonkins than good moonkins. I personally don't really like the changes because it was always satisfying to know that i was a better Moonkin than X because i did A,B and C better than him and I was smarter with skill management. Seems like now the only thing that's going to make 1 moonkin better than the other is gear.

What are other people's thoughts on this? Do you feel we are getting dumbed down so that casuals aren't so awful at the class? Is it something we needed?

I completely agree.